Would a Christian go to hell if he believed in Baptism regeneration?

What is more important to consider is anyone ever justified for following a belief he does not know is true such as that seeking to be baptised will condemn one if one does not know that is true and thinks bible teaches need to seek to if it may be possible to if they think bible teaches the need to be baptised so that not doing it would be disobeying Jesus. God might accept but the only safe way is to follow what Christ has made known.

ViaCrucis said:

I think it's telling that none of the passages you quote says that our salvation depends on us believing the right things.

Scripture, however, is clear that salvation is the gift and work of God by His grace alone, which is through faith.

Faith, as the Apostle means it in his letters, is not "believing a set of theological propositions", but rather trust in Jesus Christ.

Which is why I have no problem confessing and agreeing with Fr. Martin when he writes in his Introduction to Romans,

"Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. ''Faith is not enough,'' they say, ''You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.'' They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ''I believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this 'faith,' either.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do."

As the Apostle says to the Ephesians,

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not in what you do, so that none may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

For faith comes from outside of ourselves, as the gift and power of God. In this way the Gospel is, as the Apostle said in his Thesis Statement for Romans, "the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). For the righteousness of faith is not our righteousness, but God's righteousness--God's justice by which He justifies sinners. Such is the "righteousness that is by faith" as opposed to the Law.

No, this isn't want preachers "blurt out". This is what faithful servants and ministers of God's proclaim as stewards of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

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John 17:3, 17
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.
See Psalms 19:7-11; John 15:3

We must worship the father in spirit and truth. True. Should we know what truth is? Is that essential for eternal life?
I hope you would agree, YES.

Then, salvation does depend on what we believe. If we do not believe the truth, it's bye bye to us, since we cannot act in harmony with what God requires.

John 8:31, 32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

If not. Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23

QuestionQuest74 said:

If a man lived a truly Godly life but believed in baptism regeneration is he going to heaven. (Based on scripture)?

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Why would He not go to Heaven given that Scripture actually does teach baptismal regeneration? I mean you’re literally asking “If a man lived a truly Godly life, but also believed in the Scripture given by God for our instruction, is he still going to heaven?”

People preaching against doctrines such as baptismal regeneration are in error, and that includes even theologians I like and regard as venerable, such as John Wesley, but people make theological errors. In some cases these errors can be of a magnitude so as to constitute a false Gospel and alienate us from Christ, but rejecting the truth of baptismal regeneration is a relatively minor error resulting from confusion among some Protestant theologians about what the concept is meant, and also an over-exposure to the sacramental theology of St. Augustine (ex opere operanto) that @ViaCrucis discusses.

ViaCrucis said:

I think it's telling that none of the passages you quote says that our salvation depends on us believing the right things.

Scripture, however, is clear that salvation is the gift and work of God by His grace alone, which is through faith.

Faith, as the Apostle means it in his letters, is not "believing a set of theological propositions", but rather trust in Jesus Christ.

Which is why I have no problem confessing and agreeing with Fr. Martin when he writes in his Introduction to Romans,

"Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. ''Faith is not enough,'' they say, ''You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.'' They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ''I believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this 'faith,' either.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do."

As the Apostle says to the Ephesians,

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not in what you do, so that none may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

For faith comes from outside of ourselves, as the gift and power of God. In this way the Gospel is, as the Apostle said in his Thesis Statement for Romans, "the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). For the righteousness of faith is not our righteousness, but God's righteousness--God's justice by which He justifies sinners. Such is the "righteousness that is by faith" as opposed to the Law.

No, this isn't want preachers "blurt out". This is what faithful servants and ministers of God's proclaim as stewards of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

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I partially agree with you.

I do feel there are cases where baptism alone is sufficient to facilitate salvation, for example, in the case of the mentally disabled, where merely giving them the sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist should supply them with the required grace to be saved through being grafted on to the Body of Christ, His Church.

The Liturgist said:

I partially agree with you.

I do feel there are cases where baptism alone is sufficient to facilitate salvation, for example, in the case of the mentally disabled, where merely giving them the sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist should supply them with the required grace to be saved through being grafted on to the Body of Christ, His Church.

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But this still wouldn't be Ex Opere Operato (as Lutherans understand it), we'd still point to the power of the word. There is still grace, imparting faith, so that the smallest child or the person with severe mental impairment does indeed have faith, the power of God's word, the power of the Gospel, does this (Romans 10:17). It isn't the pure mechanics of the ritual, but the word of God connected therein, that does this. So that it is always impossible to separate baptism from faith, or to separate baptism from the word.

-CryptoLutheran

CoreyD said:

John 17:3, 17
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.
See Psalms 19:7-11; John 15:3

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That still doesn't say anything about being saved by what we believe, i.e. salvation by adhering to theological propositions.

Not unless you define knowing Jesus Christ in purely cognitive language. Which I don't. As I believe to know Christ is to have faith, and that faith is God's gift. Even the newborn infant can know Jesus Christ.

"At that time Jesus declared, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.'" - Matthew 11:25-30

"Now they were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him, saying, 'Let the children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.'" - Luke 18:15-17

CoreyD said:

We must worship the father in spirit and truth. True. Should we know what truth is? Is that essential for eternal life?
I hope you would agree, YES.

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Essential for us as followers of Jesus. Yes. For He says "Your word is truth". But we do not come to the Savior by our own power and will; it is by grace alone that we come, and by grace alone that we rest in Him. For He also says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life".

CoreyD said:

Then, salvation does depend on what we believe. If we do not believe the truth, it's bye bye to us, since we cannot act in harmony with what God requires.

John 8:31, 32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

If not. Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23

Click to expand...

And to whom does the Lord say "I never knew you", to those who trusted in Him or to those who claim glory for themselves? What does the Savior record these saying, is it not, "Did we not prophesy in Your name? Did we not cast out devils in Your name? Did we not perform mighty deeds in Your name?"?

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit," - Titus 3:5

C.S. Lewis, I think, rightly states that on the Day of Judgment there are only two kinds of people, those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "thy will be done".

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

But this still wouldn't be Ex Opere Operato (as Lutherans understand it), we'd still point to the power of the word. There is still grace, imparting faith, so that the smallest child or the person with severe mental impairment. It isn't the pure mechanics of the ritual, but the word of God connected therein, that does this. So that it is always impossible to separate baptism from faith, or to separate baptism from the word.

-CryptoLutheran

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I again agree in part, except I would say it is not so much the word as in the scriptural text but rather the Word as in Christ the incarnate Logos. What is being imparted noetically via the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist to infants and the disabled is faith in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God.

Because Jesus Christ is the divine Logos, I tend to favor a Christological orientation towards the use of that term except where the text is obviously referring to the scriptures and not our Lord, but in many cases where it is assumed to be referring to the scriptures, a Christological reading is also possible, in my experience, and preferable, because Scripture is an Icon of the Logos, but not the Logos Himself.

The Liturgist said:

I again agree in part, except I would say it is not so much the word as in the scriptural text but rather the Word as in Christ the incarnate Logos. What is being imparted noetically via the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist to infants and the disabled is faith in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God.

Because Jesus Christ is the divine Logos, I tend to favor a Christological orientation towards the use of that term except where the text is obviously referring to the scriptures and not our Lord, but in many cases where it is assumed to be referring to the scriptures, a Christological reading is also possible, in my experience, and preferable, because Scripture is an Icon of the Logos, but not the Logos Himself.

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I do not mean, by word, just Scripture; yes Christ is included here; but most simply "the word" here is simply the Gospel and its efficacious power. The word that is preached creates faith (Romans 10:17), this is the same word which is there in the Sacraments. So Paul can say Jesus cleansed us by "the washing of water with the word". The word here is God's promise, it's the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I do not mean, by word, just Scripture; yes Christ is included here; but most simply "the word" here is simply the Gospel and its efficacious power. The word that is preached creates faith (Romans 10:17), this is the same word which is there in the Sacraments. So Paul can say Jesus cleansed us by "the washing of water with the word". The word here is God's promise, it's the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Very good.

QuestionQuest74 said:

If a man lived a truly Godly life but believed in baptism regeneration is he going to heaven. (Based on scripture)?

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No. In fact, the idea of separating regeneration from baptism is quite novel. The church believed in BR since the beginning even though it knew that God could forego that command if impossible to perform. OTOH, ignorance of this command does not mean you'll go to hell either. God is very, very patient, and understanding, knowing our hearts better than we do. And He'll judge us by our hearts.

QuestionQuest74 said:

If a man lived a truly Godly life but believed in baptism regeneration is he going to heaven. (Based on scripture)?

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No one lives a truly Godly life unless God counts him Godly by grace through faith.

ViaCrucis said:

But this still wouldn't be Ex Opere Operato (as Lutherans understand it), we'd still point to the power of the word. There is still grace, imparting faith, so that the smallest child or the person with severe mental impairment does indeed have faith, the power of God's word, the power of the Gospel, does this (Romans 10:17). It isn't the pure mechanics of the ritual, but the word of God connected therein, that does this. So that it is always impossible to separate baptism from faith, or to separate baptism from the word.

Click to expand...

ViaCrucis said:

I do not mean, by word, just Scripture; yes Christ is included here; but most simply "the word" here is simply the Gospel and its efficacious power. The word that is preached creates faith (Romans 10:17), this is the same word which is there in the Sacraments. So Paul can say Jesus cleansed us by "the washing of water with the word". The word here is God's promise, it's the Gospel.

Click to expand...

This is most certainly true.

The Liturgist said:

again agree in part, except I would say it is not so much the word as in the scriptural text but rather the Word as in Christ the incarnate Logos. What is being imparted noetically via the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist to infants and the disabled is faith in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God.

Click to expand...

God's holy inspired Word has several characteristics that guarantee powerful results. First, it is infused with the power of the Holy Spirit. Second, God's word is truth. It awakens our conscience. With the power to reach into the private corners of our hearts, the Word bares our motives and secret feelings and reveals our hidden longings. Third, God's Word discerns our true character. It exposes the weakness in our attitudes and conduct, enabling us to correct ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit.

Three points stand out:

(1) The Word is always powerful to save in itself; See Post #33 for verse listing.

(2) The Spirit is always at work through the Word; it is perpetual union. THE PROMISE OF SCRIPTURE. There can be no Spiritless Word. See Post #33 for verse listing.

The Spirit through the Word as his instrument is the efficient cause our conversion and of all spiritual activity in man. The Spirit is the power behind the proclaimed Word. When we speak about the Word as a means of grace, we mean that the Spirit uses the Word as a vehicle of his presence and power. Spirit and Word must be understood in relation to one another. The work of the Spirit and the Word are interwoven so much so that it is hard to distinguish where one ends and the other begins. Baptism as Rod Rosenblat has said is the "watery word" by which the Spirit can regenerate.

This is why Lutherans have no problems with "household" baptisms. Wherever the Word of God is present, the Holy Spirit can bring people to faith through baptism and keep them in the one true faith. It is not the water, but the presence of the Spirit in combination with the Word that regenerates. This is the advantage Christian families have. Wherever the Word of God is present, the promise is individuals are brought to faith....unbelievers and their families have no such hope as Paul would say "otherwise your children are unclean." I Cor 7:14

Notice we don't have "household baptisms" among unbelievers.

(3) The intrinsic power of the Spirit at work through the Word can be resisted. See post #34

If a man is converted and saved, the glory is due to God alone, who works through the Word. If a man is lost, it is wholly because of his own stubborn resistance to the Gospel, and it is therefore his fault. Hence, it is never because the Word has no power or because the Spirit chooses not to work through the Word that a sinner is lost. The efficacy of the Word extends to all men everywhere.

The Efficacy of God's word

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ.

I Thes 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Luke 1:37 “For no Word from God will ever fail” (NIV) or “Nothing is impossible with God” (NASB)

Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

I Corinthians 2:3-5 I also was with you in weakness and fear, and in great trembling and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind, but on the power of God.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the Word.

Galatians 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--

Ephesians 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in who also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

1 Peter 1:23-25 ...since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding Word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever." And this Word is the good news that was preached to you.

I Thes 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the Word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive;

James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the Word implanted, which is able to save your souls

Is 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have Words of eternal life.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the Words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your Word is truth.

I Thes 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the Word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Duet 8:3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.

John 15:3-5 Already you are clean because of the Word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Matthew 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the Word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23-25 ...since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding Word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever." And this Word is the good news that was preached to you.

Psalm 33:6 By the Word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

I Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the Word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.

Philippians 2:16 holding fast the Word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

I John 2:5 but whoever keeps His Word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the Word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

2 Thessalonians 2:13–14 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as first fruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 12:25-28 For I the Lord will speak, and whatever Word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in your days, O rebellious house, I will speak the Word and perform it,” declares the Lord God.’” 26 Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 27 “Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ 28 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “None of My Words will be delayed any longer. Whatever Word I speak will be performed,”’” declares the Lord God.

James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the Word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

John 4:39-42 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the Word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

John 20:30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Jeremiah 1:12 Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”

Lamentations 2:17 The Lord has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His Word
which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing,
And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries.

Proverbs 4:20-22 My son, give attention to my Words; Incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Do not let them depart from your sight; Keep them in the midst of your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them; And health to all their body.

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The Word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 4:17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

I Cor. 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Matthew 13: 8 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Act 7:51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you.

Zephaniah 7:12 "They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13:13f This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.(K)

14 In them is fulfilled(L) the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

This is most certainly true.

God's holy inspired Word has several characteristics that guarantee powerful results. First, it is infused with the power of the Holy Spirit. Second, God's word is truth. It awakens our conscience. With the power to reach into the private corners of our hearts, the Word bares our motives and secret feelings and reveals our hidden longings. Third, God's Word discerns our true character. It exposes the weakness in our attitudes and conduct, enabling us to correct ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit.

Three points stand out:

(1) The Word is always powerful to save in itself; See Post #33 for verse listing.

(2) The Spirit is always at work through the Word; it is perpetual union. THE PROMISE OF SCRIPTURE. There can be no Spiritless Word. See Post #33 for verse listing.

The Spirit through the Word as his instrument is the efficient cause our conversion and of all spiritual activity in man. The Spirit is the power behind the proclaimed Word. When we speak about the Word as a means of grace, we mean that the Spirit uses the Word as a vehicle of his presence and power. Spirit and Word must be understood in relation to one another. The work of the Spirit and the Word are interwoven so much so that it is hard to distinguish where one ends and the other begins. Baptism as Rod Rosenblat has said is the "watery word" by which the Spirit can regenerate.

This is why Lutherans have no problems with "household" baptisms. Wherever the Word of God is present, the Holy Spirit can bring people to faith through baptism and keep them in the one true faith. It is not the water, but the presence of the Spirit in combination with the Word that regenerates. This is the advantage Christian families have. Wherever the Word of God is present, the promise is individuals are brought to faith....unbelievers and their families have no such hope as Paul would say "otherwise your children are unclean." I Cor 7:14

Notice we don't have "household baptisms" among unbelievers.





(3) The intrinsic power of the Spirit at work through the Word can be resisted. See post

If a man is converted and saved, the glory is due to God alone, who works through the Word. If a man is lost, it is wholly because of his own stubborn resistance to the Gospel, and it is therefore his fault. Hence, it is never because the Word has no power or because the Spirit chooses not to work through the Word that a sinner is lost. The efficacy of the Word extends to all men everywhere. SEE VERSES BELOW

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Thank you for this interesting discourse in Lutheran soteriology.

When you speak of the Word, are you using it in the same Evangelical sense as @ViaCrucis that if I understand him correctly, is used specifically to refer to the Gospel since that points to the our Lord the Only Begotten Son and Word of God?

In other words, in a manner referring to the Gospel for Christological reasons, as opposed to those non-denominationals, restorationists and Zwinglians who use it synonymously with “the Bible” or “Holy Scripture”?

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Of the verses you post, my own preference has been to preferentially read them Christologically except where it clearly means Scripture. Specifically, if the Greek says Logos, unless the context is obviously non-Christological, I tend to read it as referring to our Lord. But I do find the idea of it referring to the Gospel in a unitive sense and the idea of Baptism as “the wordless Word” conceptually interesting.

The latter reminds me of the Eastern Christian liturgies that describe the Eucharist as a “bloodless and rational sacrifice”, where the word rational is of course referring to Christ, since Logos means “Reason” among other things, hence the word “Logic”, which helps explain why our Lord is not just truthful, but The Truth incarnate.

The Liturgist said:

When you speak of the Word, are you using it in the same Evangelical sense as @ViaCrucis that if I understand him correctly, is used specifically to refer to the Gospel since that points to the our Lord the Only Begotten Son and Word of God?

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Exactly. You got it. John 14-16 shows the Work of the Spirit is to point to Christ.

The Liturgist said:

specifically to refer to the Gospel since that points to the our Lord the Only Begotten Son and Word of God?

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Yes. We see this union between Spirit and Word in the life of Christ. From Jesus' baptism onwards, the Spirit is with him. So there are two persons of the trinity in his earthly ministry. Sometimes, we see the miracles of Jesus attributed to the Spirit, other times we don't. We see Jesus as the Word preaching the Word and the Spirit bring them to faith. Sometimes Scripture doesn't mention the Spirit. But that shouldn't bother us. Due to the inter workings of the Trinity, both the Spirit and Jesus as the Word are engaged in inseparable operations.

In my opinion, we see the same kind of inseparable operation with the written Word and the Spirit. Wherever the Word is preached in all it's forms....sermon, hymns, lectionary readings, prayers, liturgy, devotions, table grace, baptism, holy communion, etc....we have the promise of the HS to create faith and sustain faith.

Just to add, in Lutheran parlance "word/Word" is used not ambiguously, nor with any intention to confuse (e.g. conflating Scripture as the word with Christ who is the Word--the Divine Logos). But there is cross-over, not a "blurring" but we might say a bleeding between the lines.

Scripture, without Christ, and/or without the Gospel wouldn't be God's word--it would just be words on paper. At best it might be godly wisdom and good instruction for moral life--but that (the Law) has no saving power. And since we are sinners, that would render Scripture impotent.

So we can't ever separate any of these. Scripture is the Word, Christ is the Word, the Gospel is the Word; not in a confusing way; but in such a way that God's dynamic power to save us is right there, freely given to us; the Holy Spirit makes this happen.

Let's consider the story of St. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. We see that the eunuch was reading the Scripture (the Suffering Servant poem as found in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah), and St. Philip preaches the Gospel, and how this points to Christ, and the eunuch then sees water nearby and says, "Look, here is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?"

That's the power of God's Word. That's God working to convert, create faith, to save; acting through the Means of Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

This is really lovely. Every time I find myself concerned by some aspect of Lutheranism, it turns out to be rather Orthodox.

I think my only disagreements with Lutheranism are extremely trivial, and come down to the fact that I think that the Eucharist can become the Body and Blood of our Lord at either the Words of Institution or the Epiclesis, or perhaps it entails the entirety of the liturgy, depending on the liturgical rite, and also the ancient second century Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari, one of three used by the Assyrians, which lacks the Words of Institution except when celebrated by Chaldean and Syro-Malabar Catholics, who insert them at a seemingly appropriate moment, and certain Anaphorae (Eucharistic Prayers) of the Syriac Orthodox where the Words of Institution are paraphrased, are valid, and assuming efficacious sacraments; since memorialists and Zwinglians and some other Reformed do not intend to consecrate, I am nut sure that they consecrate, but if they do consecrate, that’s actually probably bad for them, since it implies they are not discerning the body and blood of our Lord as per 1 Corinthians 11:27-34, so it would be merciful in a sense if God does not allow just anyone to confect the Eucharist). The reason I believe this is because of the extreme antiquity of these liturgies, for example, Addai and Mari has been dated to at least the second century, the only liturgy still in use known to be older being the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, also known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, which is attested to by the second century Strasbourg Papyrus and by other manuscripts of great antiquity, including the oldest intact liturgical service book, the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis. Likewise the Syriac Orthodox anaphorae where the words of institution are paraphrased are for the most part very ancient, the newest one (and also the newest Syriac Orthodox anaphora) being that of Mar Dionysius bar Salibi, from the 12th century. This is also the most frequently used of the 86 anaphorae, or Eucharistic prayers*, although the most important one, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, has the Words of Institution, and in some archdioceses they insert the Words of Institution and other parts of the St. James anaphora.

The only other disagreements I have are likewise trivial, in that I disagree with Martin Luther, but perhaps not the Lutheran church writ large, in that I believe the Eucharist is a sacrifice, in which we offer bread and wine to God, and this becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord, and when we partake that, in anamnesis of Him, we participate in the one Communion that has united the entire Church, that our Lord instituted on the night He made an offering of Himself. Thus, from our perspective, it is a bloodless and rational sacrifice, a mercy of peace and offering of praise, to quote an Eastern Orthodox hymn, although our Lord’s sacrifice from which we benefit was certainly not bloodless. My views are perhaps best summarized by where the celebrant intones “Thine Own of Thine Own, we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all, and for all.”

And the final issue is simply that I believe asking the saints in Heaven for their intercessory prayers is appropriate and beneficial. And I enumerate seven sacraments, or mysteries, and not two, or three. And I also reject the Augustinian model of original sin in favor of that of St. John Cassian, which is a more refined rejection of Pelagius that was historically the preferred one by both the Roman church and the Eastern churches, and it remains preferred in the latter, but with the rise of Scholastic theology, there was a shift to the works of St. Augustine being regarded as the apex of Patristic literature by most Western theologians, including Martin Luther, who was an Augustinian friar. And I do like St. Augustine, I simply disagree with him on that issue and also on the salvation of unbaptized infants.

These are all minor issues as I see it, and some of them might not even be issues at all, but you might regard them as adiaphora; right now I am basically guessing as to which theological issues might actually separate us, if there are any at all.

I should add, I attended a Lutheran parochial school of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod in the best years of my elementary school education, and I love the Lutheran churches and despite these differences, I could, according to my sense of ethics, work for one in my professional capacity and stay silent about them so as to avoid causing division.

God bless you my friends!

*the Syriac Orthodox hold the record for the most anaphorae of any church, with the Maronites coming in second with around 50 or so I would guess; they separated from the Syriac Orthodox and moved to the mountains of Lebanon in the eighth century if I recall, so their liturgy was very similiar, prior to Vatican II, when it was wreckovated, perhaps worse than the Roman Rite, since some aspects of the Novus Ordo Missae I actually like, whereas every change to the Maronite Rite had the effect of destroying the unique attributes of the West Syriac family of liturgies; fortunately, this was the only non-Western liturgy that was wreckovated after Vatican II, with the Greek Catholic liturgies benefitting from de-Latinization, and the Syriac Catholic and Coptic Catholic liturgies and other Eastern Catholic liturgies largely left untouched, as far as I am aware.

QuestionQuest74 said:

If a man lived a truly Godly life but believed in baptism regeneration is he going to heaven. (Based on scripture)?

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Concoctions of men mostly lead to a wrong place. If a man follows men and not God is he lost; yes, unless he repents.

Baptism is the sanctuary ordinance, where the priests wash sins off of their hands, brought forward into the new priesthood, where the ordinances are performed once, but where the duration of the once is eternity.