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The Liturgist

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Concoctions of men mostly lead to a wrong place. If a man follows men and not God is he lost; yes, unless he repents.

Baptism is the sanctuary ordinance, where the priests wash sins off of their hands, brought forward into the new priesthood, where the ordinances are performed once, but where the duration of the once is eternity.

Baptism is in no sense a “concotion of men” but a holy sacrament of the church according to all four ancient churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic and the Assyrian Church of the East), and almost all Protestants, including Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and so on, and the scriptural evidence of it being regenerative comes from the mouth of Christ our true God.
 
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RileyG

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Concoctions of men mostly lead to a wrong place. If a man follows men and not God is he lost; yes, unless he repents.

Baptism is the sanctuary ordinance, where the priests wash sins off of their hands, brought forward into the new priesthood, where the ordinances are performed once, but where the duration of the once is eternity.
Are you a Baptist or Anabaptist? I noticed you didn't use the word "Sacrament."
 
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Jim Campbell

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Yes, because John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance.
Jews weren't baptised when they sinned - they had the sacrificial system as laid down by Moses for that.
In the NT believers confessed their sins, were baptised - which was a picture of what happened when they became believers; dying to sin, rising to life. And were usually asked to give a short confession of faith; like, "Jesus is Lord", (which was dangerous when they Romans were making everyone say "Caesar is Lord".)
Yes, baptism is a good idea, and in fact a sacrament. But if someone became a Christian and were not able to be baptised, they'd still be saved.

Many people nowadays are baptised as babies - and the families don't always do it because they plan to take their children to church and bring them up in the faith. And there is also the question of people being baptised into cults, like JWs and Mormons. If baptism was a part of salvation, these people would be saved - while denying that Jesus is God and there is no Trinity.
The bigger picture is covered over many verses of holy scriptures.
Wordsearch Search results for: shall be saved
Matthew 10:22 (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.




Matthew 24:13 (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.




Matthew 24:22 (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.




Mark 13:13 (KJV)
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.




Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




John 10:9 (KJV)
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.




Acts 2:21 (KJV)
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.




Acts 15:11 (KJV)
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.




Romans 5:9 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.




Romans 5:10 (KJV)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.




Romans 10:13 (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.




1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




1 Peter 4:18 (KJV)
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 
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Strong in Him

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The bigger picture is covered over many verses of holy scriptures.
A truer picture is found if you look at the context of each verse, rather than just indicating where the word appears.

What was your point?
 
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sparow

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Baptism is in no sense a “concotion of men” but a holy sacrament of the church according to all four ancient churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic and the Assyrian Church of the East), and almost all Protestants, including Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and so on, and the scriptural evidence of it being regenerative comes from the mouth of Christ our true God.
Maybe I didn't spell my view out sufficiently. Baptism is Biblical, but men take that and create doctrines of men, where the meaning and purpose is changed; this thread is about "baptismal regeneration", which is a concoction.
 
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sparow

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Are you a Baptist or Anabaptist? I noticed you didn't use the word "Sacrament."
I was sprinkled at nine months, and fully emersed as an adult; I do not believe I have failed sufficiently to require re-baptism, but I believe such is possible. Sacraments seem to be to do with making oaths; breaking an oath to God may be something that cannot be repented of.
 
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Jim Campbell

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I think it's telling that none of the passages you quote says that our salvation depends on us believing the right things.

Scripture, however, is clear that salvation is the gift and work of God by His grace alone, which is through faith.

Faith, as the Apostle means it in his letters, is not "believing a set of theological propositions", but rather trust in Jesus Christ.

Which is why I have no problem confessing and agreeing with Fr. Martin when he writes in his Introduction to Romans,

"Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. ''Faith is not enough,'' they say, ''You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.'' They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ''I believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this 'faith,' either.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.
"

As the Apostle says to the Ephesians,

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not in what you do, so that none may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

For faith comes from outside of ourselves, as the gift and power of God. In this way the Gospel is, as the Apostle said in his Thesis Statement for Romans, "the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). For the righteousness of faith is not our righteousness, but God's righteousness--God's justice by which He justifies sinners. Such is the "righteousness that is by faith" as opposed to the Law.

No, this isn't want preachers "blurt out". This is what faithful servants and ministers of God's proclaim as stewards of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
I would add some to this topic, keeping the gospel of Jesus very simple enough for people totally ignorant of Bible knowledge. Witnessing to them needs to be on a very basic level. I like
Acts 8:34-39 (KJV)
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Phillip had been reading Isaiah to the eunuch. When the man heard the gospel of Jesus in answer to that question, the eunuch believed on Jesus. He desired to follow that belief with the witness to be water baptized like Jesus was by John. John put belief in who Jesus was, the Son of God, followed by the crucial "with all thine heart". Then and only then would the prophet John's water baptism have spiritual significance. It was a physical act of sin repentance and belief in Jesus' gospel, what Jesus commanded in Mark 1:15.

I think there is confusion among many concerning baptism after being born again by that belief. The next baptism came at Pentecost in Acts 2, last prophesied by Jesus
Matthew 20:23 (KJV) 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Of course Jesus wasn't meaning John's water baptism since He and his apostles had already had access to John's water baptism unto repentance. John never promised eternal salvation nor the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Before John came baptizing unto repentance of sins, Israel was baptized by Moses in their experiences in the wilderness.

Upon that basis it is possible to witness Jesus to anyone within about 5-10 minutes. Memorize some verses around all that then ask if they believe that gospel with all their heart. Then offer to baptize them with the understanding how vital it is to give all sins up to Jesus. Every human has that offering to give. Thankyou Lord Jesus for your gospel revealed!
 
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Jim Campbell

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Another way I look at this topic is when Jesus submitted to John's water baptism he was already God come in flesh, sinless, in no need of salvation. Studying the typology of the ministry of Jesus helps see what Jesus did by letting John help Jesus fulfill all righteousness. Shadows are a matter of typological figure past and future. We might comprehend a natural shadow as being something, or is a sign of something casting it. Jesus submitted as a shadow of His work from the cross, His physical death and burial, and resurrection., to exhibit the shadow of confession of gospel belief, public testimony before men, and celebration of the will of the Father performed. Going under the water shadows His soon coming of death and burial, submitting to a deserved hell experience by His substitution for His brethren, then rising from the grave in glory. Like with Phillip leading the eunuch who was born again through belief of the words Philip read to him, fully persuaded in his heart, then testifying before people through water baptism. He was not regenerated by the water baptism then saved by faith in Jesus. As the man came up out of the water Phillip had disappeared. Paul didn't mire down in water baptisms lest anyone claim he baptized in his own name.

Romans 10:8-17 (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Paul advanced to the baptism of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands upon people already water baptized by John. That is recorded almost 30 years after the 12 disciples of John had obeyed to repent of sin. John spoke of a greater spiritual experience made possible to believers after Jesus was glorified. John's disciples were sent away without the Spirit fullness and power, not even having comprehended there was a Holy Spirit, that being made available by Jesus glorified.
Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Believing the gospel of Jesus and calling upon Him, doing so with all our heart, is what saves, gaining a measure of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all righteousness and sanctification every day of our lives. Only by that does water baptism have meaning for Christians. That is a testimony before other believers that we heard and accepted the gospel of Jesus the Christ of God, agreed to die to sin, burying the "old man of sin", and risen back up with eternal life in Christ. Then comes that greater baptism of the Holy Spirit with all fullness, power, and glory to God. Most believers are burdened like those 12 disciples of John that had not even heard of the Holy Spirit, nor of our great need of His help. Too much wrong teaching has put so much fear into people because of the tongues and prophesying, some even saying all that is confusion from Satan. Flee from words like that preached from any pulpit.
 
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Jim Campbell

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The following is anecdotal but is an illustration of how what I was taught about salvation was leading me to hell until after I married my So. Baptist wife. At the age of 12 some neighborhood boys asked me to join their Sunday School class to hopefully win a flag. I attended that Sunday, being informed of a deacon that I had to be saved to qualify for membership. I would have to be baptized right away. I submitted to being dunked in the baptistry tank, hearing words I could not understand. After drying and dressing, I was told "Welcome to the family of God! You are born again, son!" The class got their flag the next Sunday, then I heard the teacher tell about Moses parting the sea. I never returned. Until age 35 whenever people asked if I was born again, saved, etc. I satisfied ALL who inquired by saying "I was baptized at age 12 in the Baptist church where I lived in Dallas, TX." The typical reply was "Wonderful" with no deeper discussion. I attended church once for a funeral, being more prepared with a good excuse to avoid anything potentially religious. I was a sinner with his "ticket to Heaven" by water, and had no interest in church, but had met their condition. I was lost and one heartbeat away from hell al those miserable years.

The scriptures are very plain, though not adding many forbidden doctrinal beliefs that have currently resulted in hundreds of Christian and 'Christianese' denominations. Some forbid music, some not worshiping with any emotion or hand raising, etc. Some baptize infants promising those precious souls they were saved by water near birth. There are many potential pitfalls out there that can be discovered by studying the Bible frequently, and hearing biblical teaching and preaching. Often there is just a nagging inwardly something just doesn't add up. Only a month ago a visitor asked why we had a physically perfect man specimen hanging on a crucifixion cross. "Do you know Jesus was damaged beyond recognition?" I knew that but had not applied those scriptures to that art-piece. That item got a sledge hammer treatment that day.

What I have sought here in this thread is to point Christians to seek out for themselves all the scriptures concerning what they believe. That is what Peter offered in this passage offered for the use of especially millions around the planet with no Bible.
2 Peter 1:1-21 (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

AMEN
 
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