Would a Christian considered a Jew?

[Soyeong]

What you mistake is living like a true believer and keeping the law. A sheep can do nothing else but act like a sheep and that means it follows its Master. But we do not need a set of rules to follow in order to do so. I will give you an illustration:
Say that I hire a woman to keep and clean my house. I write up a set of rules that I expect her to adhere to in order to do what she was hired to do and put it on the fridge. Now I fall in love with this woman and she with me and we marry. Do you really think that she needs the rules posted on the fridge still? Of course not she does those things now because she loves me and for me to put her under a set of rules in order for her to show her love to me is ridiculous. She no longer follows a set of rules but does what pleases me because now she is free from rules.

Another analogy would be a man travelling with his wife who doesn't like it when he drives too fast, so out of love for her he drives under what the speed limit requires. The law is not needed for the righteous, but for the unrighteous because the righteous are already meeting or exceeding what it requires. Speed limits are not needed for those who drive at safe speeds, but for those who would otherwise drive at unsafe speeds. So I am in agreement with you about this point that out of love for God we should meet or exceed what His law requires and I have been arguing in favor of what we should be doing at minimum. In Romans 7:14, it says that the law is spiritual, so it is intended to teach us spiritual principles that go above and beyond what the written law requires, but is nevertheless in accordance and inclusive of what it requires. Meeting a higher standard necessarily involves meeting a lower standard.

In Deuteronomy 30:11, God said that what He commanded was not too hard for them to do, and in 1 John 5:3, it says that the commands of God are not burdensome, so the problem with the Old Covenant was not that God's commands were hard, but that our hearts were hard, which is why God said in Ezekiel 36:26-27 that he will give us new hearts, take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and that he will put His Spirit within in us to cause us to obey His law. The is why God made a New Covenant where he would write His law on the hearts of His people so that we live in accordance with its principles. If after you married the cleaning woman, she was free from having to obey your rules, so she felt free to not live in accordance with them, then there would be a problem, but this is sadly where most Christians are at.

 

[crossnote]

Sounds like Dispensationalism.

Bloodlines mean nothing whether it was from Abraham or from Adam when it comes to being a believer. We are all children of Adam, Jews and Gentiles, and now in Christ heirs to the promises.

The land promises given to the Jews were all conditional but the spiritual promises all were made to and through Christ and us in Him.

I suppose this is where a great divide lies. I hold that the Mosaic Covenant was conditional not the Abrahamic Covenant. Law and promise...conditional/unconditional...

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(Gal 3:17-22)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Funny how the 'one new man' is always Gentile.

 

[JoeP222w]

Gal 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[twin1954]

I suppose this is where a great divide lies. I hold that the Mosaic Covenant was conditional not the Abrahamic Covenant. Law and promise...conditional/unconditional...

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(Gal 3:17-22)

The Abrahamic Covenant was a spiritual covenant. Moreover we find that the land promises were fulfilled :

(Jos 23:14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

 

[twin1954]

Funny how the 'one new man' is always Gentile.

The one new man is spiritual Israel.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The one new man is spiritual Israel.

Whatever that means. Nice thing about abstraction: you can make it into anything you like.

 

[crossnote]

The Abrahamic Covenant was a spiritual covenant. Moreover we find that the land promises were fulfilled :

(Jos 23:14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Just because 'not one thing had failed' doesn't mean all had been fulfilled. This includes the promised land as well as the promised Messiah.

 

[crossnote]

The one new man is spiritual Israel.

The One New Man is the Church, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles...

Eph 2:13-15

Ephesians 2:13-15 KJVS
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

[twin1954]

Just because 'not one thing had failed' doesn't mean all had been fulfilled. This includes the promised land as well as the promised Messiah.

So you think that the promised Messiah has not yet come? You identify as a christian so how can this be?

What do you think "all has come to pass" means?

 

[twin1954]

The One New Man is the Church, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles...

Eph 2:13-15

Ephesians 2:13-15 KJVS
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

I wholeheartedly agree!

The one new man is the church, Spiritual Israel:
(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[twin1954]

Whatever that means. Nice thing about abstraction: you can make it into anything you like.

See the quotes in my post above. Spiritual Israel is a Biblical teaching. They are the elect of God in all generations not a figment of man's imagination.

(1Pe 1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

(1Pe 1:2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter wasn't writing to just Jews who were scattered but to the church which was scattered.


(1Pe 2:9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(1Pe 2:10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The elect of God are a chosen generation, a holy people, which in times past were not a people but now are.

Who do you think that he is talking about?

 

[twin1954]

(Joh 1:11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(Joh 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(Joh 1:13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John very clearly tells us, by the inspiration of the Spirit, that those who are born of God are not born by bloodlines, that is being a Jew, nor of the will, which shoots down decisionism, but they are born of God. God says that He will be merciful to whim He will be merciful, Ex. 33:18-19

(Exo 33:18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

(Exo 33:19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.


Which the Apostle Paul, again by the inspiration of the Spirit, quotes and explains in Rom. 9:6-16

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

(Rom 9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

(Rom 9:9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

(Rom 9:10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(Rom 9:11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

(Rom 9:12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(Rom 9:16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Notice what he says in verse 6: "They are not all Israel which are of Israel". Israel is the children of the promise and the promise is made to spiritual Israel.

Israel is those who are of faith not of those who are of bloodlines. They include all believers and are of spiritual Israel according to Paul in Gal. 4:21-31

(Gal 4:21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

(Gal 4:22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

(Gal 4:23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

(Gal 4:24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

(Gal 4:25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Gal 4:27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

(Gal 4:28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

(Gal 4:29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

(Gal 4:30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

(Gal 4:31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Steve Petersen]

See the quotes in my post above. Spiritual Israel is a Biblical teaching.

Yes, an abstract one. Requiring interpretation, immune to objective scrutiny because it is entirely a spiritual concept.

 

[crossnote]

So you think that the promised Messiah has not yet come? You identify as a christian so how can this be?

What do you think "all has come to pass" means?

No, you quoted Joshua as if to show the land promised was already theirs. At that time all the land promised had not been theirs just as their Messiah had not yet come.

 

[crossnote]

I wholeheartedly agree!

The one new man is the church, Spiritual Israel:
(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Read the context of Romans two. It is comparing a Jew who is one by circumcision only and a Jew who also has is not only circumcised but has the faith of Abraham. Gentiles are not in that specific passage.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Gal 6:16)

Notice the word AND? The Israel of God are the Jews who have come to their Messiah.

 

[twin1954]

No, you quoted Joshua as if to show the land promised was already theirs. At that time all the land promised had not been theirs just as their Messiah had not yet come.

The land promise was fulfilled but they chose to follow other gods and lost the arm of the Lord which would have given them all the land. Joshua told them that the promise was fulfilled all they had to do was take it.

Moreover show me a Jew today who can actually trace his lineage. They are no longer a people.

The Messiah came at the appointed time when God had prepared the Jews to reject Him.

 

[twin1954]

Read the context of Romans two. It is comparing a Jew who is one by circumcision only and a Jew who also has is not only circumcised but has the faith of Abraham. Gentiles are not in that specific passage.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Gal 6:16)

Notice the word AND? The Israel of God are the Jews who have come to their Messiah.

I notice you ignored all the other passages that I gave in order to comment on the passages that you had an answer for. But just so you don't think I can't rebut your arguement I will.

Here is the context of the passage in Romans 2;

(Rom 2:11) For there is no respect of persons with God.

(Rom 2:12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(Rom 2:13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(Rom 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

(Rom 2:15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

(Rom 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

(Rom 2:17) Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

(Rom 2:18) And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

(Rom 2:19) And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

(Rom 2:20) An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

(Rom 2:21) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

(Rom 2:22) Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

(Rom 2:23) Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

(Rom 2:24) For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

(Rom 2:25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

(Rom 2:26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

(Rom 2:27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The context is Paul speaking about the Gentiles who didn't have the law still doing what the law demands according to the natural understanding of right and wrong God has given all men. He is speaking of all men being moral creatures as opposed to the animals which can eat their young without any pangs of conscience.

Now notice verse 27 which clearly speaks of the Gentiles. The whole passage is contrasting and explaining the problem that the Jews had with saying they keep the law and how God has made even the Gentiles to be the true circumcision in spirit not in letter. Tie that back to what he said in Rom. 9:6

(Rom 9:5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

(Rom 9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh, national Israel, are not the children of God. They have served their purpose and now they are no different than all of the Gentile world who follow after a false religion.


(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Again notice verse 15. The word "and" in verse 16 simply means he is adding the whole church to those of whom he spoke in the rest of the sentence. It isn't an inclusion of another people at all. You must read that into the passage and come up with an alternate interpretation in order to apply it as you have.

 

[crossnote]

The land promise was fulfilled but they chose to follow other gods and lost the arm of the Lord which would have given them all the land. Joshua told them that the promise was fulfilled all they had to do was take it.

Moreover show me a Jew today who can actually trace his lineage. They are no longer a people.

The Messiah came at the appointed time when God had prepared the Jews to reject Him.

The Jews are no longer a people?
Hitler didn't think so, Hamas doesn't thinks so, the Ayatollahs don't think so.
What FBsite did that theology come from?

 

[crossnote]

I notice you ignored all the other passages that I gave in order to comment on the passages that you had an answer for. But just so you don't think I can't rebut your arguement I will.

Here is the context of the passage in Romans 2;

(Rom 2:11) For there is no respect of persons with God.

(Rom 2:12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(Rom 2:13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(Rom 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

(Rom 2:15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

(Rom 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

(Rom 2:17) Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

(Rom 2:18) And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

(Rom 2:19) And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

(Rom 2:20) An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

(Rom 2:21) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

(Rom 2:22) Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

(Rom 2:23) Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

(Rom 2:24) For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

(Rom 2:25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

(Rom 2:26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

(Rom 2:27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(Rom 2:29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The context is Paul speaking about the Gentiles who didn't have the law still doing what the law demands according to the natural understanding of right and wrong God has given all men. He is speaking of all men being moral creatures as opposed to the animals which can eat their young without any pangs of conscience.

Now notice verse 27 which clearly speaks of the Gentiles. The whole passage is contrasting and explaining the problem that the Jews had with saying they keep the law and how God has made even the Gentiles to be the true circumcision in spirit not in letter. Tie that back to what he said in Rom. 9:6

(Rom 9:5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

(Rom 9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh, national Israel, are not the children of God. They have served their purpose and now they are no different than all of the Gentile world who follow after a false religion.


(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Again notice verse 15. The word "and" in verse 16 simply means he is adding the whole church to those of whom he spoke in the rest of the sentence. It isn't an inclusion of another people at all. You must read that into the passage and come up with an alternate interpretation in order to apply it as you have.

Again, though Paul speaks about the Gentiles in Rom 2 not having the law, he is addressing directly the Jewish audience. As in 'the Gentiles don't have the written law but you Jews do'. Paul never calls the believing Gentiles Jews. The true circumcision are those who have not only been physically circumcised but also spiritually. Those are the true Jews.

Going to Romans 9, Gentiles are not mentioned until v.24. Again the context is on 'promise' and election, showing the promise of righteousness stands to the Gentiles and not just the Jews according to God's calling.

Then we have again...Gal 6:16 I did not include anything. You are adding by saying 'he is adding the whole church to those of whom he spoke in the rest of the sentence.' Paul is not adding anything to anyone, he is simply giving a blessing of peace (shalom) 'to those who walk according to this rule' AND 'to the Israel of God'. He is actually making a distinction.