Would a Christian considered a Jew?

[Dave-W]

"PS: Messianic believers are not suppose to teach in the Baptist forum. Just a friendly reminder."

Quite right. My apologies.

 

[JM]

You call Messianic Judaism "false?"

Dave,

If you are seeking to maintain the Jewish religion, the Old Mosaic covenant and practices along with belief in Jesus Christ yes, it is false. Christianity, the faith Christ brings to us in the New Covenant of Grace, is the fulfillment of the promises made under the Old Covenant making them obsolete.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: Messianic believers are not suppose to teach in the Baptist forum. Just a friendly reminder.

 

[Soyeong]

Dave,

If you are seeking to maintain the Jewish religion, the Old Mosaic covenant and practices along with belief in Jesus Christ yes, it is false. Christianity, the faith Christ brings to us in the New Covenant of Grace, is the fulfillment of the promises made under the Old Covenant making them obsolete.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: Messianic believers are not suppose to teach in the Baptist forum. Just a friendly reminder.

Most Messianics are in agreement that the Old Covenant is obsolete and that we are not under it, however, we are still under the same God. God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness exists independently of any covenant and do not change, so the practices that God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good do not change, which we are told to do as part of the New Covenant (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

 

[JM]

Most Messianics are in agreement that the Old Covenant is obsolete and that we are not under it, however, we are still under the same God. God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness exists independently of any covenant and do not change, so the practices that God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good do not change, which we are told to do as part of the New Covenant (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

I can agree with that. It's just the folks that think they are more "authentic" for dressing up in prayer shawls and blowing rams horns that bug me. lol

 

[MWood]

"PS: Messianic believers are not suppose to teach in the Baptist forum. Just a friendly reminder."

Quite right. My apologies.

You are right, Dave. But I will listen to you. I may not agree with all you have to say, but I will listen.

 

[Soyeong]

I too understand your position but my question is if it is still binding to the believer what are its penalties? Non-conformance to the law without perfect obedience brings the penalty of death. Is Christ just the removal of the penalty or is He our obedience as well?

There is now therefore no condemnation for those who abide in Messiah (Romans 8:1) because Messiah paid those penalties for us. However, it does not follow that because we can't obey the law perfectly that therefore we shouldn't bother keeping it at all. Messiah is out obedience because he causes us to obey, not in that continuing to do what is right in our own eyes now counts as being obedient.

The law certainly shows the believer his failure to live up to the holy and righteous standard found in the law but it cannot in any way help us. It must drive us to rest in Christ alone as all our righteousness and all our holiness before God. We have no hope otherwise.

In Deuteronomy 30:11, it says that what God had commanded them was not too hard to do and in 1 John 5:3, it says that the commands of God are not burdensome, so the issue is not that obeying the law is hard, but that our hearts are hard. God is removing our hearts of stone and giving us hearts of flesh so that we will obey His law:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

There is now therefore no condemnation for those who abide in Messiah (Romans 8:1) because Messiah paid those penalties for us. However, it does not follow that because we can't obey the law perfectly that therefore we shouldn't bother keeping it at all. Messiah is out obedience because he causes us to obey, not in that it that continuing to do what is right in our own eyes now counts as being obedient.



In Deuteronomy 30:11, it says that what God had commanded them was not too hard to do and in 1 John 5:3, it says that the commands of God are not burdensome, so the issue is not that obeying the law is hard, but that our hearts are hard. God is removing our hearts of stone and giving us hearts of flesh so that we will obey His law:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Your right, never realised this before. I only focused on the put my spirit within you part.

Scripture does say: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

With the spirit we should be following His Statues and Obeying His Rules, that what Scripture says.

 

[twin1954]

Your right, never realised this before. I only focused on the put my spirit within you part.

Scripture does say: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

With the spirit we should be following His Statues and Obeying His Rules, that what Scripture says.

Believers are obedient but not to the law but to the Gospel. The Gospel is that Christ has done all and we need nothing but Him. To obey the law out of a false idea of obedience is to seek righteousness that we can never obtain. I find that Chtist is all my righteousness and all my holiness and if I do what is right or moral it is only because He has given me a new heart to do so. The law isn't what I need to keep me in step or for obedience but love for Christ and my new nature being created new makes me do what comes natural to my new nature. We do not reform the old man by obedience to rules or the law but live as a new creation which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4: 23-24

 

[Soyeong]

Believers are obedient but not to the law but to the Gospel. The Gospel is that Christ has done all and we need nothing but Him. To obey the law out of a false idea of obedience is to seek righteousness that we can never obtain. I find that Chtist is all my righteousness and all my holiness and if I do what is right or moral it is only because He has given me a new heart to do so. The law isn't what I need to keep me in step or for obedience but love for Christ and my new nature being created new makes me do what comes natural to my new nature. We do not reform the old man by obedience to rules or the law but live as a new creation which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4: 23-24

There is no distinction between being obedient to God's law and obedient to the Gospel. Repenting from our sins is a central part of the Gospel message, and the law is how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7). The law was added to reveal sin, so it is how we know what it is that we are to repent of doing. Again, the law has never been about how to obtain righteousness, but rather it is about the conduct that God wants those He has declared to be righteous to have by faith. Christ is our righteousness and holiness because it is through him that we can do what is righteous and holy in accordance with his example and in accordance with what the law instructs. If you love Messiah, then you will obey his commands (John 14:15), his commands are the same thing that he practiced (1 John 2:3-6), and he practiced obedience to the law. We are made new creations in for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and OT Scriptures, which primarily include God's law, are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We are to obey the law not in order to become reformed or saved, but because we have been reformed and sin in disobedience to the law is what we are being saved from doing. The law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is based off of God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, so the life of someone who is created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness should look the same as the life of someone who lives in obedience to God's law by faith.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Spirit and the Law
God saves us and puts us back in the world, now with His Spirit, we are able to follow and obey Him, through the spirit. Without the spirit no can see or understand the things from above, with the Spirit of God we are enabled to do so.

The Jews observed the laws because in them they thought they were righteous, with us Christ is out righteousness, He gives us the spirit to allow us to follow and obey him and sanctify us and conform us to the image of Christ.

Conformity to the image of Christ
Jesus was sinless, therefore conformity to the image of Christ is partially becoming dead to sin, or restraining sin in our lives, through the power of the Spirit, which to me means obeying God, because disobeying God is sin.

Becoming a living sacrifice would also mean focusing more on Christ and less on ourselfs, but this also must mean we consecrated ourselfs to Christ, again there can not be hidden sin in our lives if we are consecrated unto God.

I would say another aspect is loving God and others.

I will leave with this quote from the Lord:
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. John 15:10

 

[twin1954]

Spirit and the Law
God saves us and puts us back in the world, now with His Spirit, we are able to follow and obey Him, through the spirit. Without the spirit no can see or understand the things from above, with the Spirit of God we are enabled to do so.

The Jews observed the laws because in them they thought they were righteous, with us Christ is out righteousness, He gives us the spirit to allow us to follow and obey him and sanctify us and conform us to the image of Christ.

Conformity to the image of Christ
Jesus was sinless, therefore conformity to the image of Christ is partially becoming dead to sin, or restraining sin in our lives, through the power of the Spirit, which to me means obeying God, because disobeying God is sin.

Becoming a living sacrifice would also mean focusing more on Christ and less on ourselfs, but this also must mean we consecrated ourselfs to Christ, again there can not be hidden sin in our lives if we are consecrated unto God.

I would say another aspect is loving God and others.

I will leave with this quote from the Lord:
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. John 15:10

What are His commandments? John tells us very clearly:

(1Jn 3:22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

(1Jn 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

(1Jn 3:24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Notice that there are only two. One is to believe on Christ and the other is to love our brothers. There are not ten or twelve or six hundred fifty but only two.

 

[JM]

Soyeong, I believe we are in essential agreement. I would make a distinction between that which is moral and that which is commanded to be done covenantally. Circumcision was commanded to be performed based on the covenant promise given to a specific people at a specific time. For them to NOT perform the ordince according to their covenant would be immoral because they promised to do that which was commanded. It would not be immoral for a Gentile to forgo circumcision. Murder, adultery, etc. are moral commands that extend beyond covenantal boundaries to all of mankind.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong, I believe we are in essential agreement. I would make a distinction between that which is moral and that which is commanded to be done covenantally. Circumcision was commanded to be performed based on the covenant promise given to a specific people at a specific time. For them to NOT perform the ordince according to their covenant would be immoral because they promised to do that which was commanded. It would not be immoral for a Gentile to forgo circumcision. Murder, adultery, etc. are moral commands that extend beyond covenantal boundaries to all of mankind.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

There are two times where Gentiles are required to become circumcised (Genesis 17:13, Exodus 12:48), neither of which requires it for all Gentiles everywhere, so I am in agreement that it is not otherwise immoral for Gentiles to forgo circumcision. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant, and while we are not under that covenant, we are still under the same God. The commands of the covenant are God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and they are based off of God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, which does not change, which means that the commands don't change either. For example, 1 Peter 1:14-16 tells us to have a holy conduct not because we are under the Old Covenant or because we should be like Jews, but because God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct. According to Leviticus 11:44-45, doing what is holy because God is holy involves refraining from eating unclean animals. This will always be the case unless God's holiness changes.

 

[Swan7]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has gone through a clean sweep! I am asking all members to please be aware of where you are posting and to not "teach" in a Congregation forum that do not agree with the same views - as per the:​

Congregational Forum Restrictions
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.

Statement of Purpose and Off-Topic
Read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose. Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

Please stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another topic, by all means, make another thread in the appropriate forum!

Thanks for reading!

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has gone through a clean sweep! I am asking all members to please be aware of where you are posting and to not "teach" in a Congregation forum that do not agree with the same views - as per the:​

Congregational Forum Restrictions
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.

Statement of Purpose and Off-Topic
Read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose. Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

Please stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another topic, by all means, make another thread in the appropriate forum!

Thanks for reading!

MOD HAT OFF​

bahh you ruined all the fun!

 

[Swan7]

bahh you ruined all the fun!

Again, please stay on topic of the thread...

 

[Steve Petersen]

'Would a Christian be considered a Jew' by whom? Other Jews?

 

[JM]

'Would a Christian be considered a Jew' by whom? Other Jews?

Gosh I hope not! The Jewish religion today is not biblical. Judaism cannot exist without the Temple and sacrifices which is why it was destroyed in A.D. 70.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Gosh I hope not! The Jewish religion today is not biblical. Judaism cannot exist without the Temple and sacrifices which is why it was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Judaism existed for 70 years when the first temple was destroyed. I continues to exist 2000 years after the second one was destroyed.

 

[twin1954]

Judaism existed for 70 years when the first temple was destroyed. I continues to exist 2000 years after the second one was destroyed.

Find me a Jew today who can actually prove his tribe or linage. Though some may claim to they simply cannot for all the records were destroyed in 70 A. D.