worship service; jumping up and down

[talitha]

I've been reading a lot of material through the last couple of years on both corporate worship and authority, and I agree with you 100%, pdudgeon .

The worship leader is there to direct the music team, and listen to God about how it should go yes, however they should not be dictating to the c`ongregation "raise your hads, danc now, spin around and touch your toes".....

Where do you draw the line, sis, between "listening to God about how it should go" and "dictating to the congregation"? If the worship leader is following the leading of the Lord in song selection and style and tempo, then who's to say the Lord is not leading him to have everyone stand/lift their hands/clap/whatever.....? the only difference I see is that one is musical and the other is kinetic - but both are worship, wouldn't you agree? The worship leader is the one designated to bring us all together in obedience to whatever would please and magnify the Lord, right?

 

[Tamara224]

I was taught it was expected of me, so I forced myself to give up my fears and do it. And I guess, frankly, it doesn't really seem fair to me, for some believers to think that those scriptures don't apply to them and they can just disobey them. They don't feel any obligation to enter in. They just stand there with their hands in their pockets, not singing, not participating, week after week. To me, that is discouraging.

Why should I bother attempting to fascilitate worship when they are determined to stand there like a stick in the mud and never participate. Why am I making a fool of myself? I could stand there too.

Maybe all that clapping and dancing stuff IS a bunch of garbage, NOT APPLICABLE to the church today, and I can just stand there with my little worship invisible to all but God.

This just strikes me as really really wrong. I'm sorry, but it does. What difference does it make what other people are doing? Worship is between you and God. You can do all those things (lift hands, clap, jump, dance, wave flags) and if you're not worshipping "In Spirit and in Truth" it's just empty motions. You can't force anyone else to worship. All you do by telling them they are 'commanded' and have a 'duty' is to force legalistic rituals upon them and it's no wonder if people resist. In what way is that different than going through the liturgy of the older denominations (sit, stand, say this, kneel, stand, say that)?

How is it not 'fair' for you to worship when others refuse to worship? They are the ones missing out, not you. You act as though this clapping, jumping, etc, is a burden for you. It shouldn't be that way. If you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do those things from your heart then it isn't a burden, it's joyous and free. We should feel free to do them, not guilty if we don't. There's no 'commandment' that says we must worship in this style.

I'm grieved that you seem to feel this way. I pray that God will free you from this burden.

 

[talitha]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pdudgeon again.

 

[Glenda]

I've seen some miraculous, instant healings and miracles in Wal-Mart. Many have gotten born again also. I think we may have something with this Wal-Mart thing. Can you imagine reading in books, many years from now, about the "Wal-Mart Revival"?

There are Wal-Marts all over the USA.. and in the Palua.. Guam.. American Samosa..

How about The Virgin Islands?? Want to be the evangalist to the Wal-Mart there??

 

[FallingWaters]

It's like "if he says it, then we MUST do it". I don't feel that to be right, especially if they are not functioning under the HOly Spirit, which is what the point was that I was making.

I knew that's what the point was, but I think we should fear making such a judgement. For in truth, to make such a decision, is to judge the worship leader. I would not encourage anyone to make that call.

I have a deadly fear of judging because when God saved me I was a very judgmental person and God showed me how dangerous it is.

If a worship leader is not being led by the Holy Spirit, the pastor or others in authority who put the leader there should be the judge of that, and correct them, or remove them from that position.

One of the most basic of all of Jesus' teachings is "Judge not." I'm just saying, we should be very careful of judging.

Matt7:1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Luke 6:37“Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

Romans 2:1Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Romans 14:4Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

James 2:13For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 4:11Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

In light of all that, as the others have said, perhaps the worship leader has no more authority than anyone else, and you can do whatever you please.

 

[FallingWaters]

What difference does it make what other people are doing?

If we all entered in together, as others have described here in this thread, it would be a beautiful thing.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Simon saaaaaaays............lift up your hands.

Put them down.

Ahha! Got you!

 

[FireOfGod]

Simon saaaaaaays............lift up your hands.

Put them down.

Ahha! Got you!

D'oh!

 

[Tenebrae]

snip


Where do you draw the line, sis, between "listening to God about how it should go" and "dictating to the congregation"? If the worship leader is following the leading of the Lord in song selection and style and tempo, then who's to say the Lord is not leading him to have everyone stand/lift their hands/clap/whatever.....? the only difference I see is that one is musical and the other is kinetic - but both are worship, wouldn't you agree? The worship leader is the one designated to bring us all together in obedience to whatever would please and magnify the Lord, right?

God wants us to worship him, in spirit and in truth and truth is not doing what the worship leader tells us to do. what may be right for them, may not be right for others, and again, a worship leader that has to stand between God and the rest of the congregation, is wrong, and smacks of the heavey sheparding movement

Sometimes during worship, the rest of the church maybe standing with their hands raised, and I'm sitting with my feet pulled up on the pew, eyes closed, but worshipping God with all my heart mind and spirit other times I may be standing still (while others are swaying and moving) giving myself a hug, again, not going with the norm, however definately worshipping God and enjoying being in His prescene. Someone looking at me may believe I am not into the worship and am looking really bored, when nothing could be further from the

My worship is between me and God, and as I am able to approach the throne of God with grace and confidence, I dont need a go between, standing in my behalf before the Father

It is wrong for a worship leader to try and insert themselves inbetween the congregation and God

 

[flaglady]

God has been telling us to move out of the church walls.. to go to the streets.. instead of waiting for the people to come to us..

Perhaps what he is telling us through Wal-Mart being mentioned all the time is that we should be evangelizing there.. it is one of the largest .. if not the largest retailers in the US.. (are they worldwide too??)

Well, they're here in the UK. Or rather, they bought up our major supermarket Asda though they let us keep the name.

But just imagine having an Asda revival!!!?
Luvvly jubbly!!

And I got some dancing fellas

 

[talitha]

wizeone, you had said all of that before, and I understand what your point of view is. I asked some specific questions, and I'm still interested to know what your answers to them might be.

GJ, where'd you get that picture of JimM?

 

[TreeOfLife]

Worship Team members are akin to what I call "Throne Room Ushers". Our job is to meet people at the door to the throne room of God, straighten their ties for them, pick lint off their dresses, give them the most loving Christian hugs an kisses as we can, and then lead them to the very foot of the Throne of God.

That's our job as far as I'm concerned.

 

[nephilimiyr]

So this thread is now about questioning the worship leader in the church?

What part of "leave people to worship God freely and to be themselves" don't ya'll understand?

Why do people insist on bringing what they believe worship should be to this arguement? Since when do we all have to worship God according to your standards? And if you want to argue that it's not your standards but God's then prove it through scripture, not by giving your opinion!

I never have been given an answer here to my challenge of bringing forth scripture that reveals worshipping God while jumping up and down is forbidden. Your silence on the lack of scripture speaks volumes. Now please stop telling people that if they do this or do that or if they don't do this or don't do that they are then not worshipping God in the way He approves.

I respect your right to have an opinion but I don't nor will I agree with it. If the only legit way to worship God is to do it your way then prove it through scripture, not through your opinion.

 

[bithiah2]

So this thread is now about questioning the worship leader in the church?

What part of "leave people to worship God freely and to be themselves" don't ya'll understand?

Why do people insist on bringing what they believe worship should be to this arguement? Since when do we all have to worship God according to your standards? And if you want to argue that it's not your standards but God's then prove it through scripture, not by giving your opinion!

I never have been given an answer here to my challenge of bringing forth scripture that reveals worshipping God while jumping up and down is forbidden. Your silence on the lack of scripture speaks volumes. Now please stop telling people that if they do this or do that or if they don't do this or don't do that they are then not worshipping God in the way He approves.

I respect your right to have an opinion but I don't nor will I agree with it. If the only legit way to worship God is to do it your way then prove it through scripture, not through your opinion.

i still believe that the worship leader is just what the name says, the one who leads and encourages the people to worship. some people need to be encouraged because they don't know how to praise the Lord. but they can't tell someone "how", because it comes from within the person's heart. being on one accord the way i understand the Bible to read, is that everyone came with the heart and mind to praise the same God, Jesus Christ. if we are doing that then there is unity and strength. it is not about how you do it, it is where your heart is with God. that is all He is concerned with.
I Samuel 16:7
blessings
bithia2

 

[Glenda]

wizeone, you had said all of that before, and I understand what your point of view is. I asked some specific questions, and I'm still interested to know what your answers to them might be.

GJ, where'd you get that picture of JimM?

Picture of JimM??

If you're talking about those little dancing guys, that's FlagLady's doing.. *smile*

 

[talitha]

yeah, whoops! I meant Flaglady.....

confession-time - I get the two of you confused sometimes.....

LOL

t

 

[Glenda]

yeah, whoops! I meant Flaglady.....

confession-time - I get the two of you confused sometimes.....

LOL

t

That's ok, Talitha.. God created she & I from the same 'cloth,", I believe.. and the Holy Spirit has given us the same vision in Ministry..

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey, maybe that's one dance the church actually did start...moshing. They were doing that kind of dancing in the church I attended over 30 years ago.

 

[Jillymac]

I agree with what you said.

Just a comment about what I would "normally" do. I would never in a million years have ever lifted my hands, or clapped, or danced around with flags in church if I had not been instructed that it was my duty to do so because the scriptures command that we do those things. It took a LOT for me to lose my self-consciousness enough to worship the Lord the way I do now- years and years of gradually giving up my insecurities. Now those things are an expression of the passion of my heart for God and what He has done for me. But I had to be taught and encouraged to do those things. It was not normal for me.

I was taught it was expected of me, so I forced myself to give up my fears and do it. And I guess, frankly, it doesn't really seem fair to me, for some believers to think that those scriptures don't apply to them and they can just disobey them. They don't feel any obligation to enter in. They just stand there with their hands in their pockets, not singing, not participating, week after week. To me, that is discouraging.

Why should I bother attempting to fascilitate worship when they are determined to stand there like a stick in the mud and never participate. Why am I making a fool of myself? I could stand there too.

Maybe all that clapping and dancing stuff IS a bunch of garbage, NOT APPLICABLE to the church today, and I can just stand there with my little worship invisible to all but God.

I remember NEVER lifting my hands too. It took me a very very long time to be comfortable with that. I think it was more a personal issue of being embarassed and worrying what everyone else thought rather than concentrate on what really mattered - Worshipping God. It's a great feeling being free to worship, I really do understand the self-consciousness that you also felt. Worshipping is so simple yet we let such trivial things stand in the way, it's amazing when we can finally just let go. In fact when i think of how i used to be, I am so amazed to the place where God has brought me, now in the Worship team - encouraging others to worship - with hands held high and everything!!

I totally know what you mean, there are people who do just stand with their hands in their pockets, but this is something that I have come to realise about that group of people in the church - Some of them may not be worshipping at all or not putting in any effort, however others could be celebrating on the inside and just not showing it on the outside, maybe they are struggling with the very same self-consciousness that we suffered from as well, it will only be a matter of time before God moves their heart.

I don't think clapping and dancing for the Lord is at all garbage, I think it is a wonderful way to express worship to Him. However everyone has their own style. I would love to see a room with people worshipping, some clapping, some hands lifted high, some bowing down, some dancing etc it really would be a wonderful sight to see.

 

[Jillymac]

I knew that's what the point was, but I think we should fear making such a judgement. For in truth, to make such a decision, is to judge the worship leader. I would not encourage anyone to make that call.

I have a deadly fear of judging because when God saved me I was a very judgmental person and God showed me how dangerous it is.

If a worship leader is not being led by the Holy Spirit, the pastor or others in authority who put the leader there should be the judge of that, and correct them, or remove them from that position.

.

I wanted to make a VERY clear point here, in NO WAY am i judging the Worship Leader, that is not my place to do that and I know that indefinitely. HOwever being part of the Worship Team (and even within the congregation) you can sense the Holy Spirit, you can sense the HS coming into the place, and if you can sense it then you can also sense it when the worship leader takes the meeting one way when actually the HS wanted to go another and the presence just disappears, possibly because the Worship Leader was not sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

THerefore i'm not judging the worship leader, I'm sensing the Holy Spirit moving, and feeling the results of whatever choice the worship leader makes, and those results are not always very positive.