worship service; jumping up and down

[J4Jesus]

I'm pretty sure that I never once referred to you directly or accused you specifically of doing anything. I don't even remember if the post that brought on this little rabbit trail was posted by you or not.

What I posted about the validity of an argument has nothing to do with opinion. It is simply debate technique. The post was designed to help the person that posted it to do a better job of presenting their arguement (or opinion, for that matter).

The post in question used one word in one verse (that isn't even in the Hebrew) to prove that Michal was barren as a direct result of her indignation with her husband, David. 2 Sam 6:23 does not say that Michal was barren. It states that she never had children. We can only speculate as to the reason. It is just as valid to think she didn't have children because her and her husband never attempted to procreate. David had many concubines and many children so he had no need to have relations with his wife, Michal.

You certainly are entitled to have any opinion you desire. Your opinion may even be fact. Please accept my apology for offending you. I was trying to help you make your point better.

Danny

OK Thanks

This subject was mentioned back on post 8 and 9. I was commenting as I read . So then I posted all the verses about it. Yes it was me you quoted post 41 and 128

God bless you

 

[Jillymac]

Quote

Originally Posted by: FallingWaters

You're right... some people CANNOT do what the worship leader asks them to do.

However, If a person CAN do what the worship leader is asking, then they should.

Why should they? When I was trained (at three different international worship symposiums) as a worship minister, I was taught that the Holy Spirit leads the worship leader. The worship leader communicates that to the congregation. The congregation follows the worship leader, and the worship leader leads them into the Holy of Holies. It behooves me as a member of the congregation to participate in whatever the Holy Spirit is leading the worship leader to do.

Of course, that's the ideal and sometimes we fall short of that.

Sorry it seems i've missed out on a few pages!! You guys were BUSY!!

To reply to Fallingwaters, I know what you mean. Authority is a very important factor within a church. We are to follow our church leaders as they are led by the Holy Spirit. HOWEVER, (and i know others mentioned this) when you know that the leader is NOT following the Holy Spirit, and you are aware of this, THAT is the time that you can step out and NOT follow the worship leader. If you continue doing the wrong thing, just because the worship leader is doing it, then you are rebelling against God because you are aware of what you should actually be doing, and God can hold you responsible for what you know. We're not sheep following sheep, we have a responsibility to follow the Holy Spirit ourselves, just as much as the Worship Leader does.

John Bevere wrote a very indepth book about coming under authority called "Under Cover" it's very good at explaining the times when we should trust our leaders no matter what (even through hard times and when you think it is the "wrong decision") but then he also mentions there are times when leaders get it wrong and "think" they know. But that is really taking it into Pastoral care.

On this thread we're talking about Worhip. Everyone has their own style of worship, God has given everyone the ability to do different things to please Him through worship. I don't jump because to me, I'm not worshipping properly or as effectively by doing this. An outward action does not equal "worshipping God" unless the heart is worshipping as well.

 

[JimB]

You're right... some people CANNOT do what the worship leader asks them to do.

However, If a person CAN do what the worship leader is asking, then they should.

Why should they? When I was trained (at three different international worship symposiums) as a worship minister, I was taught that the Holy Spirit leads the worship leader. The worship leader communicates that to the congregation. The congregation follows the worship leader, and the worship leader leads them into the Holy of Holies. It behooves me as a member of the congregation to participate in whatever the Holy Spirit is leading the worship leader to do.

Of course, that's the ideal and sometimes we fall short of that.

What? That might work in your church and not in others. I see a worship leader as a worship leader in the household of God not as a cheerleader at a high school pep rally.

In the NT there is not a whole lot said about how early Christians worshipped. Most of our proof-texts for hopping, moshing, waving, dancing, running, etc. come from the OT and describe Jewish Temple worship. Worship in the NT, Jesus said, had nothing to do with location or style but was an individual thing to occur “in your spirit and in truth.”

John 4. 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
​

Personally I don’t need some controlling, manipulative person fresh out of their teens on a stage in front of a spotlight telling me when to raise my hands or to jump or grab someone’s hand or cheer for the home team or anything else that is not their nature. Eugene Peterson translates the last sentence of John 4.24 to say, “Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration." Jumping would not be my true self, it would be the self the cheerleader wants but if I did it I would not be true to myself. I do not need a worship leader to tell me how to worship God in my spirit. Anyhow, modern worship leaders are not a biblical ministry – I can’t find a single one in my NT – but are a creation of the church, men, to facilitate and unify our public gatherings. This does not diminish their role, but it also does not mean that they in any way can effect my spirit through some sort of spiritual/physical aerobics. Worship is a lifestyle, not what I do for 45 minutes on Sunday. If I don’t worship at Wal-Mart or at the Mall or the library or anywhere I may be, I am not a “true worshipper.” And I don’t need a worship “leader” to help me do that.

Sincerely,
~Kareem O'Weet

 

[pdudgeon]

Anyhow, modern worship leaders are not a biblical ministry – I can’t find a single one in my NT – but are a creation of the church, men, to facilitate and unify our public gatherings. This does not diminish their role, but it also does not mean that they in any way can effect my spirit through some sort of spiritual/physical aerobics.

i think you are confusing the needs of private worship with the needs of public/corporate worship.

In private worship it is just you and God, and you may worship Him in the way He leads you.

but when we come into public/corporate worship we do need worship leaders in the same way that a heard of cattle need the outriders to guide them in the way that they should go in order to get to the intended place.

If we used the same criteria in public worship that we do in private worship things would be in complete chaos.
When people come into a public place their intent may be to worship but the ease that they have in doing so may vary from person to person. Suzie may immediately be at home with God, but Sam may yet be thinking of what needs to be done at home or what the rattle was in the car on the way to church.

So the first job of a worship leader is to get themselves into communication with God (the trail boss) in order to see the needs of all these cows, and where they need to be hearded for that day. Once that is established then they can best work towards accomplishing that by choosing the songs as God brings them to the leader's attention. So yes, God is the true worship leader. the person at the front is the facilitator.

Corporate worship should never take the place of private worship, nor should it be ignored. private worship will fill your individual needs, but corporate worship should lift you above those needs and take you higher, wider, and deeper into the presence of the Father.

and yes, sometimes there are stragglers in worship just like there are in any heard. If this happens consistantly, then a worship leader who sees this should be able to offer some one-on-one counseling to see what the problem is. Enabling everyone to worship is the goal of a good facilitator, because that is their job--to bring people from where they are into the presence of God.

 

[probinson]

Why is it when the subject of worship comes up, inevitably the subject of Wal-Mart comes up as well? I had no idea worship and Wal-Mart went hand in hand.

 

[talitha]

LOL - you know what's really funny - now that you've said that - I was leading worship this past Sunday night - and was talking about worshiping and not caring what others think - and I found myself saying something like "...and we don't care what the guy at WalMart thinks...."

haha!

seriously - could God be up to something?

blessings
tal

 

[FallingWaters]

Sorry it seems i've missed out on a few pages!! You guys were BUSY!!

To reply to Fallingwaters, I know what you mean. Authority is a very important factor within a church. We are to follow our church leaders as they are led by the Holy Spirit. HOWEVER, (and i know others mentioned this) when you know that the leader is NOT following the Holy Spirit, and you are aware of this, THAT is the time that you can step out and NOT follow the worship leader. If you continue doing the wrong thing, just because the worship leader is doing it, then you are rebelling against God because you are aware of what you should actually be doing, and God can hold you responsible for what you know. We're not sheep following sheep, we have a responsibility to follow the Holy Spirit ourselves, just as much as the Worship Leader does.

John Bevere wrote a very indepth book about coming under authority called "Under Cover" it's very good at explaining the times when we should trust our leaders no matter what (even through hard times and when you think it is the "wrong decision") but then he also mentions there are times when leaders get it wrong and "think" they know. But that is really taking it into Pastoral care.

On this thread we're talking about Worhip. Everyone has their own style of worship, God has given everyone the ability to do different things to please Him through worship. I don't jump because to me, I'm not worshipping properly or as effectively by doing this. An outward action does not equal "worshipping God" unless the heart is worshipping as well.

I am certain I don't know. In my opinion, during worship, it would be the pastor's job to redirect the worship. I would not want to be like those in the wilderness who rebelled against Moses and then ended up dead. But perhaps this whole "authority" thing is bogus. In that case it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, John Bevere is one of those currently promoting a new brand of the "Shepherding Movement" so I don't believe what he says concerning authority. The "Shepherding Movement" was extremely damaging to the body of Christ in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Glenda]

So the first job of a worship leader is to get themselves into communication with God (the trail boss) in order to see the needs of all these cows, and where they need to be hearded for that day. Once that is established then they can best work towards accomplishing that by choosing the songs as God brings them to the leader's attention. So yes, God is the true worship leader. the person at the front is the facilitator.

Or SHEEP as the case may be..

Godd points..

 

[Glenda]

LOL - you know what's really funny - now that you've said that - I was leading worship this past Sunday night - and was talking about worshiping and not caring what others think - and I found myself saying something like "...and we don't care what the guy at WalMart thinks...."

haha!

seriously - could God be up to something?

blessings
tal

God has been telling us to move out of the church walls.. to go to the streets.. instead of waiting for the people to come to us..

Perhaps what he is telling us through Wal-Mart being mentioned all the time is that we should be evangelizing there.. it is one of the largest .. if not the largest retailers in the US.. (are they worldwide too??)

 

[FallingWaters]

but when we come into public/corporate worship we do need worship leaders in the same way that a heard of cattle need the outriders to guide them in the way that they should go in order to get to the intended place.

If we used the same criteria in public worship that we do in private worship things would be in complete chaos.
When people come into a public place their intent may be to worship but the ease that they have in doing so may vary from person to person. Suzie may immediately be at home with God, but Sam may yet be thinking of what needs to be done at home or what the rattle was in the car on the way to church.

So the first job of a worship leader is to get themselves into communication with God (the trail boss) in order to see the needs of all these cows, and where they need to be hearded for that day. Once that is established then they can best work towards accomplishing that by choosing the songs as God brings them to the leader's attention. So yes, God is the true worship leader. the person at the front is the facilitator.

Corporate worship should never take the place of private worship, nor should it be ignored. private worship will fill your individual needs, but corporate worship should lift you above those needs and take you higher, wider, and deeper into the presence of the Father.

and yes, sometimes there are stragglers in worship just like there are in any heard. If this happens consistantly, then a worship leader who sees this should be able to offer some one-on-one counseling to see what the problem is. Enabling everyone to worship is the goal of a good facilitator, because that is their job--to bring people from where they are into the presence of God.

I like your analogy. That is what I have been taught. There are some personality types that are more "non-conformist" and I would imagine they struggle with the concept, but since I am a conformist, I just do what I'm told.

 

[TreeOfLife]

What? That might work in your church and not in others. I see a worship leader as a worship leader in the household of God not as a cheerleader at a high school pep rally.


In the NT there is not a whole lot said about how early Christians worshipped. Most of our proof-texts for hopping, moshing, waving, dancing, running, etc. come from the OT and describe Jewish Temple worship. Worship in the NT, Jesus said, had nothing to do with location or style but was an individual thing to occur “in your spirit and in truth.”

John 4. 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

​

Personally I don’t need some controlling, manipulative person fresh out of their teens on a stage in front of a spotlight telling me when to raise my hands or to jump or grab someone’s hand or cheer for the home team or anything else that is not their nature. Eugene Peterson translates the last sentence of John 4.24 to say, “Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration." Jumping would not be my true self, it would be the self the cheerleader wants but if I did it I would not be true to myself. I do not need a worship leader to tell me how to worship God in my spirit. Anyhow, modern worship leaders are not a biblical ministry – I can’t find a single one in my NT – but are a creation of the church, men, to facilitate and unify our public gatherings. This does not diminish their role, but it also does not mean that they in any way can effect my spirit through some sort of spiritual/physical aerobics. Worship is a lifestyle, not what I do for 45 minutes on Sunday. If I don’t worship at Wal-Mart or at the Mall or the library or anywhere I may be, I am not a “true worshipper.” And I don’t need a worship “leader” to help me do that.

Sincerely,
~Kareem O'Weet

So then, you are saying that NacDan has to quit wearing the skimpy little cheerleader outfit?

 

[FireOfGod]

God has been telling us to move out of the church walls.. to go to the streets.. instead of waiting for the people to come to us..

Perhaps what he is telling us through Wal-Mart being mentioned all the time is that we should be evangelizing there.. it is one of the largest .. if not the largest retailers in the US.. (are they worldwide too??)

I've seen some miraculous, instant healings and miracles in Wal-Mart. Many have gotten born again also. I think we may have something with this Wal-Mart thing. Can you imagine reading in books, many years from now, about the "Wal-Mart Revival"?

 

[habeas]

Why is it when the subject of worship comes up, inevitably the subject of Wal-Mart comes up as well? I had no idea worship and Wal-Mart went hand in hand.

Well, if you would not lead a worship service in Walmart, then you shouldn't lead one in a church service.
You must act exactly in Walmart as you would everywhere else. Do not do anything outside of Walmart that you would not do in Walmart. Walmart is the standard for all behavior.

 

[Jillymac]

I am certain I don't know. In my opinion, during worship, it would be the pastor's job to redirect the worship. I would not want to be like those in the wilderness who rebelled against Moses and then ended up dead. But perhaps this whole "authority" thing is bogus. In that case it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, John Bevere is one of those currently promoting a new brand of the "Shepherding Movement" so I don't believe what he says concerning authority. The "Shepherding Movement" was extremely damaging to the body of Christ in the 1970s and 1980s.

Just a point though by saying that we should constantly follow EVERYTHING the worship leader tells us to do (whether directed by the HOly Spirit or not) you are actually coming under a "heavy shepherding" cloud. It's like "if he says it, then we MUST do it". I don't feel that to be right, especially if they are not functioning under the HOly Spirit, which is what the point was that I was making.

As someone who has attended a church that was very much "heavy shepherding" (and ended up contributing to me "backsliding" from my faith), Bevere's stuff is a breath of fresh air compared to that, but again it depends how we take what he says. Chew the meat and spit out the bones (or something like that )

I must point out in all this that I don't think we should go rebelling against our Worship leaders certainly not! I sing in the worship team and I do come under the authority of the worship team leader, but my point is more about being told to dance or do something a certain way (that you wouldn't normally) that is just for hype and not really for "true" worship.

 

[probinson]

Well, if you would not lead a worship service in Walmart, then you shouldn't lead one in a church service.
You must act exactly in Walmart as you would everywhere else. Do not do anything outside of Walmart that you would not do in Walmart. Walmart is the standard for all behavior.

 

[habeas]

i think you are confusing the needs of private worship with the needs of public/corporate worship.

In private worship it is just you and God, and you may worship Him in the way He leads you.

but when we come into public/corporate worship we do need worship leaders in the same way that a heard of cattle need the outriders to guide them in the way that they should go in order to get to the intended place.

If we used the same criteria in public worship that we do in private worship things would be in complete chaos.
When people come into a public place their intent may be to worship but the ease that they have in doing so may vary from person to person. Suzie may immediately be at home with God, but Sam may yet be thinking of what needs to be done at home or what the rattle was in the car on the way to church.

So the first job of a worship leader is to get themselves into communication with God (the trail boss) in order to see the needs of all these cows, and where they need to be hearded for that day. Once that is established then they can best work towards accomplishing that by choosing the songs as God brings them to the leader's attention. So yes, God is the true worship leader. the person at the front is the facilitator.

Corporate worship should never take the place of private worship, nor should it be ignored. private worship will fill your individual needs, but corporate worship should lift you above those needs and take you higher, wider, and deeper into the presence of the Father.

and yes, sometimes there are stragglers in worship just like there are in any heard. If this happens consistantly, then a worship leader who sees this should be able to offer some one-on-one counseling to see what the problem is. Enabling everyone to worship is the goal of a good facilitator, because that is their job--to bring people from where they are into the presence of God.

(except the part about being called a "cow.")

 

[probinson]

Now I know some have said that they don't think we should be dancing in church, but I wondered if it was OK to dance in this thread?

 

[Jillymac]

I believe so! Dance away!!!

 

[Tenebrae]

i think you are confusing the needs of private worship with the needs of public/corporate worship.

In private worship it is just you and God, and you may worship Him in the way He leads you.

but when we come into public/corporate worship we do need worship leaders in the same way that a heard of cattle need the outriders to guide them in the way that they should go in order to get to the intended place.

If we used the same criteria in public worship that we do in private worship things would be in complete chaos.
When people come into a public place their intent may be to worship but the ease that they have in doing so may vary from person to person. Suzie may immediately be at home with God, but Sam may yet be thinking of what needs to be done at home or what the rattle was in the car on the way to church.

So the first job of a worship leader is to get themselves into communication with God (the trail boss) in order to see the needs of all these cows, and where they need to be hearded for that day. Once that is established then they can best work towards accomplishing that by choosing the songs as God brings them to the leader's attention. So yes, God is the true worship leader. the person at the front is the facilitator.

Corporate worship should never take the place of private worship, nor should it be ignored. private worship will fill your individual needs, but corporate worship should lift you above those needs and take you higher, wider, and deeper into the presence of the Father.

and yes, sometimes there are stragglers in worship just like there are in any heard. If this happens consistantly, then a worship leader who sees this should be able to offer some one-on-one counseling to see what the problem is. Enabling everyone to worship is the goal of a good facilitator, because that is their job--to bring people from where they are into the presence of God.

Sorry I dont agree, infact this smacks to me of being a characteristic of a heavy sheparding, sorry. Whether thats the case or not or I'm just sensitive from my experience

This implies that the common christian needs a go between them and God, which is rubbish. We are all a royal priesthood and because of the new convenant, we dont need a go between us and God


The worship leader is there to direct the music team, and listen to God about how it should go yes, however they should not be dictating to the c`ongregation "raise your hads, danc now, spin around and touch your toes".....

 

[FallingWaters]

but my point is more about being told to dance or do something a certain way (that you wouldn't normally) that is just for hype and not really for "true" worship.

I agree with what you said.

Just a comment about what I would "normally" do. I would never in a million years have ever lifted my hands, or clapped, or danced around with flags in church if I had not been instructed that it was my duty to do so because the scriptures command that we do those things. It took a LOT for me to lose my self-consciousness enough to worship the Lord the way I do now- years and years of gradually giving up my insecurities. Now those things are an expression of the passion of my heart for God and what He has done for me. But I had to be taught and encouraged to do those things. It was not normal for me.

I was taught it was expected of me, so I forced myself to give up my fears and do it. And I guess, frankly, it doesn't really seem fair to me, for some believers to think that those scriptures don't apply to them and they can just disobey them. They don't feel any obligation to enter in. They just stand there with their hands in their pockets, not singing, not participating, week after week. To me, that is discouraging.

Why should I bother attempting to fascilitate worship when they are determined to stand there like a stick in the mud and never participate. Why am I making a fool of myself? I could stand there too.

Maybe all that clapping and dancing stuff IS a bunch of garbage, NOT APPLICABLE to the church today, and I can just stand there with my little worship invisible to all but God.