Worried for the Church...

[Michie]

Faith! Isn't always easy. I have a hard enough time with my own sins.

Amen. I often have to remind myself that God has made promised and he does not go back on them.

 

[pdudgeon]

Didn't Jesus say there would be times like these? What if the Church did do something to appeal to the masses but did not change any teachings? What could they do to appeal to the masses that would be objectionable to the faith and give a bad witness? Seriously, I'm asking. What is it we are supposed to be afraid of as Catholic Christians?

historically we have good examples of what to fear.
churches burning, priests murdered, congregations broken up, and meeting in secret.
people arrested, marked for their belief, rounded up, jailed and slaughtered.

prayer in public being made illegal, the eradication of Christmas and Easter.
the reading of scripture in a public meeting being made illegal.
euthanasia of the poor and aged being approved and made law.

when openly targeting and killing a Christian will be approved, celebrated, and thought a good thing.

just to name a few examples.

 

[pdudgeon]

Yes but teaching, defending, and affirming the faith does not mean it has to be based on just certain sins. We should be celebrating our faith and continually learning it. Finding some joy and peace in it. Concentrating on building each other up and edifying one another. Not stamping each other with labels. These really are first world problems as compared to what other believers have to endure.

when we have the freedom from persecution, we will do these things.

 

[Michie]

We should be doing these things now as instructed.

when we have the freedom from persecution, we will do these things.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm not above the chatter obviously. I'm talking about it aren't I? As for making threads, been there and done that. I'm not carrying that load alone anymore. I just find it odd that homosexuality seems to be the only thing people seem to think about anymore. Or the labeling... which all carry the same issues. Repeatedly.

Because homosexuals are pushing homosexuality down the throats of everyone.

 

[pdudgeon]

Last night I had an epiphany. I always preach what condemns and not who saves. People don't want what I have because they don't see Jesus in me. Homosexuality is a sin, but we're changing no minds with how we handle it. I'm going to let my light shine, let God do the work, and they'll want what I have - Jesus.

no, people don't want what you have because they are looking for a Jesus who accepts them just as they are.

they believe that they don't have to change anything about who they are, what they do, or what they believe to be accepted as a Christian.
essentially Christianity is just an 'add on' to their lives.
It's not a change, it's not a rebirth, or a renewal because they're just fine like they are.
That's honestly what they believe, because that is what society has been telling them for a long time now.

 

[Michie]

So is that a pass to talk about nothing but homosexuality? Feed into it? Ignore the faith in favor of talking about homosexuality to the exclusion of all else? The Pope does not do it.

Because homosexuals are pushing homosexuality down the throats of everyone.

 

[Michie]

We are called to instruct others in the faith but we are not called to argue it. Do people really expect people to accept everything we say? There are some you can point to what the faith teaches and believes in black and white and they are still going to believe as they choose and seek out people that will scratch their itching ears.

no, people don't want what you have because they are looking for a Jesus who accepts them just as they are.

they believe that they don't have to change anything about who they are, what they do, or what they believe to be accepted as a Christian.
essentially Christianity is just an 'add on' to their lives.
It's not a change, it's not a rebirth, or a renewal because they're just fine like they are.
That's honestly what they believe, because that is what society has been telling them for a long time now.

 

[mark46]

My impression is that the Church has grown more conservative over the past 40 years, under the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict. Post of the Vatican II "liberals" are gone, or soon will be, and newly ordained priests seem to be in the JPII and Benedict model. What might be skewing this is that the priests of the 60's and 70's are the most "senior" now, and are filling positions of authority and decision-making.

Also, we are seeing a big increase in Catholics, priests, and bishops from non-Western areas, and their cultures and histories are much different than that of Europe and North America. The Asian, African and Latin American bishops are responding to conditions and situations with which the rest of Catholicism is only slightly familiar, if at all. At one point the views of those "third world" bishops and theologians were in the minority, now they are front and center. That will likely continue and even increase. The result may appear "liberal" to some, but it is a legitimate, Gospel-based response to the problems they face and the needs of the faithful.

You do understand the Pope Benedict was the theological consultant to Vatican II. I have not seen a move to conservatism since Vatican II. JPII, Benedict and Francis all have move the priorities and ideas of Vatican II forward. At lest IMHO.

 

[pdudgeon]

We cannot be a faith of fear. God gave us promises to cling to in times like these.

it's not fear, but a recognition of the times we live in.

 

[Michie]

We are still called to carry on. We are not called to stop everything in favor of fearmongering and obsessing on what the world does. We are called to discipline those inside the Church. Not those outside of it. It really is not an either/or proposition. We are not called to put everything on hold so we can fight homosexuality and question the promise Jesus gave us concerning the Church. We are still supposed to follow the exhortation to fellowship, edify, and witness. Proclaiming the good news. Nothing wrong in discussing these things in moderation and some perspective of the great commission and the things we are called to do. The problem just seems to be that we have lost our perspective.

it's not fear, but a recognition of the times we live in.

 

[benedictaoo]

So is that a pass to talk about nothing but homosexuality? Feed into it? Ignore the faith in favor of talking about homosexuality to the exclusion of all else? The Pope does not do it.

Face it. There is an agenda out there in this world forcing society to accept homosexuality and other deviancy. It is what it is. We need to talk about this. Its not imagined. Its really happening. You can be in denial about if you want but don't expect other to be. My priest talks about this a lot so we as Christians can have direction in these very confusing days.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Daniel chapter 7

23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,

there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’

28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed; but I kept the matter in my mind.”

 

[pdudgeon]

We are called to instruct others in the faith but we are not called to argue it. Do people really expect people to accept everything we say? There are some you can point to what the faith teaches and believed in black and white and they are still going to believe as they choose and seek out people that will scratch their itching ears.

we have to give them the chance to accept what is true. and that's a far different kettle of fish than debating what is true.
That's why OBOB is supposed to be a safe haven for Catholics.
That's why it is against the posting rules for anyone--Catholic or not--to argue against what the church believes.

we have a reputation here for tolerance as well as for self-policing when it is necessary, and the CF staff appreciates that.

sometimes that tollerance wins people for Christ, and sometimes it doesn't.
but either way the message gets out there.
and if it stays there, there's a chance that someone at some time may read those words, and accept them.

that is what makes this all worthwhile.

 

[benedictaoo]

We are still called to carry on. We are not called to stop everything in favor of fearmongering and obsessing on what the world does. We are called to discipline those inside the Church. Not those outside of it. It really is not an either/or proposition. We are not called to put everything on hold so we can fight homosexuality and question the promise Jesus gave us concerning the Church. We are still supposed to follow the exhortation to fellowship, edify, and witness. Proclaiming the good news. Nothing wrong in discussing these things in moderation and some perspective of the great commission and the things we are called to do. The problem just seems to be that we have lost our perspective.

I think you have, Michie. We need guidance in these troubling times.

 

[benedictaoo]

We are called to instruct others in the faith but we are not called to argue it. Do people really expect people to accept everything we say? There are some you can point to what the faith teaches and believed in black and white and they are still going to believe as they choose and seek out people that will scratch their itching ears.

calling sin, sin is never wrong and its what we all are called to do. We need this more than ever. If we don't have that voice crying out in the wildernesses we won't know what's right anymore.

 

[Michie]

I realize that. But what you are ignoring that this is not the end all be all concerning our faith. Face this, tunnel vision is never good. We are ignoring a lot of what we could be doing so we can obsess on the world's view on homosexuality? That's our witness? Somebody needs to write the Pope and to him he is doing it wrong. Somebody needs to read Scripture and tell me where it states we stop everything in the name of the world's agendas!

Face it. There is an agenda out there in this world forcing society to accept homosexuality and other deviancy. It is what it is. We need to talk about this. Its not imagined. Its really happening. You can be in denial about if you want but don't expect other to be. My priest talks about this a lot so we as Christians can have direction in these very confusing days.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

Because homosexuals are pushing homosexuality down the throats of everyone.

If you think about, it is actually straights that are one of the big reasons why same sex couples are allowed civil marriage in several countries, and why gay rights is a thing. Im sure you are aware that the LGBT are a minority. However one of the big reasons for the increasing of gays getting certain rights, is that there is a strong backing from non-gays. In reality, you will find more non-LGBT people who support gay rights, then you would find LGBT people supporting said rights. Of course those that are very anti-gay, and fought to keep away legal rights from them (and also the cruelty done towards people, simply because they are gay), helped to fuel straight sympathy for the gay rights movement. In other words, you can't single out the gays for being the fault for why homosexual activity has become not evil in the eyes of many, and has become more "normal" to see.

 

[Michie]

Why do you always insert words in my mouth or insinuate we should not call sin sin? I never said that. I said we need some perspective. There is a difference.

calling sin, sin is never wrong and its what we all are called to do. We need this more than ever. If we don't have that voice crying out in the wildernesses we won't know what's right anymore.

 

[pdudgeon]

We should be doing these things now as instructed.

we are.
and society hates us for it.