Worried for the Church...

pdudgeon said:

and that right there ^^^is the first step down a crooked pathway.
homosexuality is not what God ordained when He created man and woman.
homosexuality is what came about as a result of sin entering the world,
(along with a lot of other stuff like illness, disease, and death).

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seekingsolace said:

Destruction from within is a concern for all people.

Condemnation of the sin, is not condemnation of the sinner. The person responsible for their actions comes under judgment through God. That being said, if we cater to the modern world view and allow people to believe it is not a sin. Then we also come under condemnation.

It is not hate, prejudice or judgment to acknowledge this; they are just the tools pro-gay activists use to accuse falsely.

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pdudgeon said:

thinking that there is no harm in homosexuality itself is the problem.
that way of viewing homosexuality as harmless negates God's view,
and sets His whole plan of creation at naught, right from the beginning.

As a sin against the body it twists the beauty of what God created and intended as good and life-giving
into something that is designed for other purposes.

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"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Mt 24:29-31

"Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity' in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 675

“Unlike former days, the denial of God or of religion, or the abandonment of them, are no longer unusual and individual occurrences. For today it is not rare for such things to be presented as requirements of scientific progress or of a certain new humanism. In numerous places these views are voiced not only in the teachings of philosophers, but on every side they influence literature, the arts, the interpretation of the humanities and of history and civil laws themselves. As a consequence, many people are shaken.” - Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II

"When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,[1] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;[2] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." - Rv 6:12-14

[1] Blood Moon (Sep 27/28, 2015)
[2] Vatican responds to CDF official’s 'coming out' (Oct 3, 2015)

Excerpts from St. Bede's commentary:

"sun. This is, as if the power of Christ were hidden, or His doctrine temporarily obscured, or covered by a veil, when the servants of Antichrist are brought to attack the servants of Christ."

"heaven. As a scroll rolled up contains indeed mysteries within, while there is no appearance of them without, so will it be with the Church. At that time, known only to her own, she will prudently avoid persecution in retirement, that by such concealment she may remain unperceived by those without."

"mountain. He speaks of the members of the Church, as differing according to the character of their offices or powers, and foretells, that no one will be without his share in this whirlwind. But the movement caused by it will be dissimilar, for in the good it will be one of precaution by flight, but in the bad, of giving way by compliance."

Perhaps this won't ease your worries, but take comfort in knowing that the Church will be victorious when Jesus returns.

My impression is that the Church has grown more conservative over the past 40 years, under the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict. Post of the Vatican II "liberals" are gone, or soon will be, and newly ordained priests seem to be in the JPII and Benedict model. What might be skewing this is that the priests of the 60's and 70's are the most "senior" now, and are filling positions of authority and decision-making.

Also, we are seeing a big increase in Catholics, priests, and bishops from non-Western areas, and their cultures and histories are much different than that of Europe and North America. The Asian, African and Latin American bishops are responding to conditions and situations with which the rest of Catholicism is only slightly familiar, if at all. At one point the views of those "third world" bishops and theologians were in the minority, now they are front and center. That will likely continue and even increase. The result may appear "liberal" to some, but it is a legitimate, Gospel-based response to the problems they face and the needs of the faithful.

Leevo said:

Hey guys, something has been on my mind lately concerning the Church that has me worried...

It might not be in the next year, 5 years or even the next 50 years, but it seems with the growing number of liberal Catholics and Catholic priests, that the church is headed for a compromise on sound doctrine... Especially concerning homosexuality... I have seen far too many openly gay Catholics, and supporters of gay marriage by Catholics for my taste. I can't see how one can consider themselves a follower of Christ without adhering to what he taught. (Not Judging, just stating my opinion) It has me worried that what seems to be one of the few church's that still hold to biblical truth on this subject, will eventually fall to the pressure posed by liberals. What do you guys think? This has had me concerned recently because I know that several big church's have fallen, such as the Episcopal Church, ECLA, etc. Even Pope Francis seems a little too comfortable with it. I know he does hold to the church's doctrine but with the recent story about the meeting between him and Kim Davis receiving such fierce opposition from liberals, and the story that had the Vatican under attack by liberals for firing the priest that came out as gay (who had a partner, which compromised his vows, but they conveniently forget that part), the Vatican seems to be trying to appeal to the masses a bit too much and I think that is starting us down a path that I don't want to follow. Am I crazy?

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you need not worry. the gate will not prevail but the enemy will always try but in vain. Y'all have to have faith that this is the Church of Christ and being that she is, nothing can bring her down, certainly not liberals, or homosexuals or priests not being faithful. If things go too far, Francis will reign it in. Those out there in the world who really are naïve enough to think homosexual acts and "marriages" will be accepted by the Vatican, they will lose interest in this pope eventually. They vainly follow the man, not Christ or the Church.

benedictaoo said:

you need not worry. the gate will not prevail but the enemy will always try but in vain. Y'all have to have faith that this is the Church of Christ and being that she is, nothing can bring her down, certainly not liberals, or homosexuals or priests not being faithful. If things go too far, Francis will reign it in. Those out there in the world who really are naïve enough to think homosexual acts and "marriages" will be accepted by the Vatican, they will lose interest in this pope eventually. They vainly follow the man, not Christ or the Church.

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My question is: why would the Church need to define the boundaries of Papal infallibility if there are not times when the Pope is vulnerable to teaching error? That question combined with what Jesus said in Matt 24:24 lead me to wonder if Jesus' guarantee in Matt 16:18 might only apply to when the Pope is teaching ex cathedra.

Armoured said:

So you know better than the catechism, huh? good to know.

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You don't see a problem in Catholics manipulating words to make homosexuality seem less damaging than it truly is? I mean we already have people here who will argue that an adulterer is far worse than an active homosexual despite both being mortal sins to God. Liberal Catholics are too comfortable preaching the LGBT message that "Love is love" and trying their hardest to make homosexuality acceptable. Polygamy is in the same boat as gays and yet no liberal here pushes acceptance and understanding toward that similar sexual sin? At best they say it should be legal too, with hardly as much enthusiasm as they give to normalizing homosexuals.

I swear, homosexuality seems to be a complete obsession on
CF. A reader could think that was the only topic to discuss within christianity.

Armoured said:

On one hand, I really don't see why the church's stance on homosexuality should really be of that much concern to anyone but homosexuals. On the other hand, if the church ever does make a compromise you can't personally stand for, no matter how unlikely, I'm sure there will plenty of other denominations that would still condemn homosexuals enough to make you happy.

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That is not it at all. People who are worried about the gay happy culture and whether it will influence the church aren't sitting back in a dirty tee shirt, torn jeans, no underwear, belching beer and scratching their balls, all while promoting taking down homosexuals. For a lot of people it is a deeply held religious conviction that God created man and woman in the same way God views Himself, the Son and the Holy Spriit. God loved the world so much--He had so much love--- he wanted a son and through that son blossomed the Holy Spirit. a Trinity. The family was made in that image, that a man who loves Him will love a woman so much that from that love flows a child/children. Its ancient teaching that the family is adopted after the Holy Trinity. That is the belief I have and why I believe it's against God's will to engage in homosexuality or any other mortal sin for that matter. Who are to say I am wrong for that? After all, it is what the Church infallibly teaches.

Leevo, the Church has been through worse times than this and she's survived heresy after heresy. That's why we take great solace in the saints and the lives of them because they have been on the earth and immersed in things the same way the world is today. Modernism will not take down the church, just feed your faith and you'll be fine.

Michie said:

I swear, homosexuality seems to be a complete obsession on
CF. A reader could think that was the only topic to discuss within christianity.

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Is there another sin that is nearly universally adored by society? All I can think of is birth control.

You don't need to harp on adultery being a sin because thus far not many advocate that polygamy is equal to monogamy. However more than half now will say there is nothing sinful about homosexuals in union. In fact even this board has had people say it's fine for gays who romantically love each other to live together if they don't have sex. So yeah more will speak up when fellow Catholics try and normalize and minimize this sin.

Michie said:

I swear, homosexuality seems to be a complete obsession on
CF. A reader could think that was the only topic to discuss within christianity.

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That's because it's a constant 24/7 obsession in secular society.

There's never a day when you can turn on the TV without seeing it being promoted.
.

I think it is an unhealthy obsession. If it isn't homosexuality it is liberal/ progressives versus the conservatives/ traditionalists. All come with the same issues. The faith just seems to be the vehicle to ride on like an afterthought. Is Catholicism/ Christianity really this vapid? On CF it appears so. At least when I was posting articles there was actually various things to read and discuss. I have no plans to get back into that routine but this is what we are left with? Really? This place is damn sad anymore.

FlaviusAetius said:

Is there another sin that is nearly universally adored by society? All I can think of is birth control.

You don't need to harp on adultery being a sin because thus far not many advocate that polygamy is equal to monogamy. However more than half now will say there is nothing sinful about homosexuals in union. In fact even this board has had people say it's fine for gays who romantically love each other to live together if they don't have sex. So yeah more will speak up when fellow Catholics try and normalize and minimize this sin.

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There are lots of things within the faith to discuss regardless of secular society. I think many think the RCC is the last great bastion to overcome to make Christianity into their own desires. But while we are obsessing on little else it feels like we are blindly fiddling away while Rome is burning.

LivingWordUnity said:

That's because it's a constant 24/7 obsession in secular society.

There's never a day when you can turn on the TV without seeing it being promoted.
.

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Michie said:

I think it is an unhealthy obsession. If it isn't homosexuality it is liberal/ progressives versus the conservatives/ traditionalists. All come with the same issues. Tha faith just seems to be the vehicle to ride on like an afterthought. Is Catholicism/ Christianity really this vapid? On CF it appears so. At least when I was posting articles there was actually various things to read and discuss. I have no plans to get back into that routine but this is what we are left with? Really? This place is damn sad anymore.

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If you make a thread on something both sides can agree with, let's say giving charity then there is no discussion. It'll be just "yes charity is good" with some posters using the thread to inflate their ego about how they volunteer x amount of time to a soup kitchen.

Of course this place is so polarized that few can even agree on catechism teachings that should be clear cut.

Also instead of shaking your head as if you're above all this chatter, why not make these ideal threads you want to see on OBOB?

I'm not above the chatter obviously. I'm talking about it aren't I? As for making threads, been there and done that. I'm not carrying that load alone anymore. I just find it odd that homosexuality seems to be the only thing people seem to think about anymore. Or the labeling... which all carry the same issues. Repeatedly.

FlaviusAetius said:

If you make a thread on something both sides can agree with, let's say giving charity then there is no discussion. It'll be just "yes charity is good" with some posters using the thread to inflate their ego about how they volunteer x amount of time to a soup kitchen.

Of course this place is so polarized that few can even agree on catechism teachings that should be clear cut.

Also instead of shaking your head as if you're above all this chatter, why not make these ideal threads you want to see on OBOB?

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Leevo said:

It has become a big deal as of late, no?

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Because we are making it a big deal. Did Pope Francis make it a big deal? Did Jesus promise the gates of hells will not prevail against the Church? What else is a big deal within the Faith do you think?