Works?

[Benedicta00]

The common Protestant response to this is that if this is true that Jesus wasn't enough and without ourselves and what we add to what Jesus did we cannot be saved. How would you address this?

What are we adding? Can you explain? You mean to tell me Christ died so we can get away with sin? Or did he die so that when we do sin because we are fallen people, we have the mercy and grace we did not have before to be reconciled back to God?

Christ would die, knowing we would still sin because God choose to let the human condition remain, for what reason do you think He would do that? Because it brings Him glory when we can transform cooperating with grace into a holy person and when and only when we unite ourselves with Christ’s passion are we in His image, this means to be obedient unto death, dyeing to ourselves, our natural passions.

Jesus did not only die for actual sins but for original, this is what we can NOT add to or change or lose, once we are born again from Adam’s seed in Christ, we can never ever un do that or add or take away from THAT redemption, this is what redemption is, it is NOT OSAS. Redemption is being born from Adam to Christ but being “saved” is something else.

Again this is one of those things where the proof is in the pudding, we know better, Jesus did not doie so we can just keep on sinning because we just can’t help it. We have His suffering and we have His grace to stop the sinning but we also have His mercy when we don’t.

Jesus did not deliver us from the effects of the fallen condition, He died to remove the eternal punishment due sin and He draws down God grace for us to change our ways, the Jews did not have this, they had the Law. This is what Paul was teaching us, certainly not OSAS.

 

[Benedicta00]

That is an excellent way of putting it, Michelle. In fact I daresay that's one of the best explanations I've ever heard. If I wasn't such a newbie I'd give you some of my blessings.

Thanks, MrZoom

 

[Benedicta00]

Can you list these works for me so I can see if we are on the same page?

Persevere to the end in faith, those are your works. That means believe in Christ's mrecy, trust in Him, repent and do penance and love God above all and our neighbor for the love of God. Do this until the end and you will be saved.

 

[twosid]

What are we adding? Can you explain? You mean to tell me Christ died so we can get away with sin?

I don't know........thats what I'm trying to figure out. I've been taught that Catholics rely on works as well as faith and that this is heresy. Neither side seems to be able to explain it very well. Protestants say that Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them....says that you aren't saved by anything that you do but by faith in Christ alone. I don't know what I believe in relation to any of it anymore and that is why I'm asking what it is. I wasn't taught that you get away with sin...in fact where I went to Church the message was to strive to keep from sin (any sin) and a great deal of emphasis was placed on it.

 

[Debi1967]

Being saved and your Salvation are two different things and that is what most people do not distinguish....

This is taught in the Bible...

Twosid I just posted three posts full of scriptural reference to the teaching of Salvation and in it it does break everything down and it does break all of the teahings down point by point...explaining them all too...it is also solely from Scripture....

We are saved by Grace alone that we do have nothing to do with...but as I have explained to you then it is by Faith and Works and one does not override the other the work in perfect unison with each other....

IOW you can have all of the Faith in the world but it will not assure your Salvation
IOW you can have no Faith but preform all of the good Works in the world and this does not assure your Salvation

The only thing that will assure your Salvation is the equal combination of them both interating and working together in harmony...then persevering until the end ...this will assure your Salvation this is the gift of HOPE we have been given....not the assurance...

Let me ask you a question here...does it make sense to you that if we go along all of our lives and then we turn away and harden our hearts to the Lord that we willhave the assurance of everlasting life with Him? If we ourselves turn away and by this I mean reject Him and His teachings that He should then reward us with the gift of Hope of everlasting life with Him?

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't know........thats what I'm trying to figure out. I've been taught that Catholics rely on works as well as faith and that this is heresy. Neither side seems to be able to explain it very well. Protestants say that Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them....says that you aren't saved by anything that you do but by faith in Christ alone. I don't know what I believe in relation to any of it anymore and that is why I'm asking what it is. I wasn't taught that you get away with sin...in fact where I went to Church the message was to strive to keep from sin (any sin) and a great deal of emphasis was placed on it.

I don’t see how you think we don’t explain it well. Common sense tells you that Paul did not mean you can sin your life away and be saved.

He is referring to the law. The Jews had the law as their judge and we all know we fall short. But we have grace of Christ that comes from Him shedding His blood, not the law.

To depend on the law would be to depend on ourselves and as Paul says, we can’t do that because we will always fail because we are fallen people. We depend on Christ when we fall, as Paul says, that because we do have grace doe that mean we still sin, no way. It means that when we fall from human weakness we are forgiven but we do have to live a good life, for goodness sakes, if we didn’t we would make a mockery of Christ’s death.

The Jews did not have a concept of original sin, Paul was explaining to them that this the reason and that the law can not save them because they are fallen people but only grace can save them. This grace is not of themselves if hey obey or not obey the law, it is from Christ, the grace that saves us because God is good, not because we are.

 

[Debi1967]

Ok it works like this in my life there have been times that it was hard for me to have the Faith I needed and because of that I questioned things I shouldn't have questioned and then I had to remind even myself that just because things look bad for me that does mean that He has deserted me or left me and I actively had to encourage myself to reconfirm my Faith continually and keep my thoughts in check and had to constantly had to watch from slipping back into old behaviours that are unpleasing to the Lord. And that if I did engage in them again it would mean that I was rejecting Him....That meant I was acting out my Faith because it was not something that was comming naturally to me and quite frankly I do not know one person that will tell you that they haven't been caught up in the same situation at one time or another when they had to keep themselves on the straight and narrow road because it seemed very easy to take the Wide and well traveled one at the time....

The difference is that we recognize this and we do not just say that because of your Faith the Works will come naturally to you because the truth is they do not at times. They are at times something that we do have to indeed make our ownselves do because although we do not want too we know that it is pleasing to Him and it needs to be done...it is not magic ...we acknowledge that.

But the other thing is we also realize that our Works are not what is going to buy us into Heaven...we acknowledge this too because then all of us would be boasting....And it does say that we should not be boasting about them...What that scripture is trying to tell us is that we need to see ourselves and humble ourselves to the Lord not puff ourselves up with pride....

but it does also tell us that we need our Faith to even get us there and then we will be also judged according to our Works....If Works were not important to some extent then why would be being judged on them in the end?

 

[Hands&Feet]

If we have the capacity to understand, then we are compelled by the Spirit of God to do good works. If these works are not of the Spirit, but of the flesh, then they condemn us because we are denying Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross. It renders His suffering in vain. If our salvation was even partly a result of works, then God's love would be conditional, just like the supposed love of the false gods of religion. Christianity would be reduced to just another religion. People would be excluded from His Kingdom because they misunderstood, or because they couldn't understand, or because they did the wrong works. This last one would be quite important because the works many religious Christians engage in are fruitless liturgical works which accomplish little in terms of extending the compassion and love of Jesus to a desperate world. But, thanks be to God, through His Son, Jesus Christ, that they are forgiven by grace, regardless.

 

[Debi1967]

If I am acting on my beliefs and trying to keep my faith alive and well then that is helping my spirit thus it is coming from my spirit to begin with....If I did not want to do it then obviously I would not...This is where Free Will comes into play. At that point I am exercising my Free Will to do something...If I am doing anything I am acting it out then I am performing a Work....

How is this such a hard concept to understand for people I do not know...When you pray are you not doing that because you have then decided to sit down and pray to God? If you are praying you are doing something....praying then you are performing a Work...if you are obeyingthen you are doing something that is again a Work....if you are Worshipping then you are doing something that is a Work...these are all ACTIONS....everytime you perform an action it is a WORK....

 

[Benedicta00]

If we have the capacity to understand, then we are compelled by the Spirit of God to do good works. If these works are not of the Spirit, but of the flesh, then they condemn us because we are denying Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross. It renders His suffering in vain. If our salvation was even partly a result of works, then God's love would be conditional, just like the supposed love of the false gods of religion. Christianity would be reduced to just another religion. People would be excluded from His Kingdom because they misunderstood, or because they couldn't understand, or because they did the wrong works. This last one would be quite important because the works many religious Christians engage in are fruitless liturgical works which accomplish little in terms of extending the compassion and love of Jesus to a desperate world. But, thanks be to God, through His Son, Jesus Christ, that they are forgiven by grace, regardless.

To be perfectly honest, what you explain has nothing to do with Catholicism in the least. We do not preach a works based salvation, never have and never will. All of our works are untied to the passion and death of Christ and ant merit is derived from Him, not from us, we never “work” apart from grace so you point is rather moot, it has nothing to do with us.

When we are forgiven it has nothing to do with works, we are forgive because Christ died to forgive us, we are not forgiven because we asked for it but to say that you do not need to even repent because Christ died is insane, forgive me for saying.

It is living in the extremes of belief, from one end of the spectrum to the other. It simply goes this way, God supplies the graces freely to us, we can cooperate with it or reject it. Him affording us the grace and then giving us a response- ability in accepting that grace does not mean we work for salvation, it is not a one or the other thing. Salvation is a mystery we will never fully comprehend because it pertains to the divine and we are not divine.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hands and feet,

This last one would be quite important because the works many religious Christians engage in are fruitless liturgical works which accomplish little in terms of extending the compassion and love of Jesus to a desperate world

I sure hope you are not making a comment about the Mass being a liturgical fruitless work. Have mercy on you if you are, you know not what you say. It is the sacrifice of Christ so just how it could ever be fruitless is beyond me.

 

[twosid]

Ok it works like this in my life there have been times that it was hard for me to have the Faith I needed and because of that I questioned things I shouldn't have questioned and then I had to remind even myself that just because things look bad for me that does mean that He has deserted me or left me and I actively had to encourage myself to reconfirm my Faith continually and keep my thoughts in check and had to constantly had to watch from slipping back into old behaviours that are unpleasing to the Lord. And that if I did engage in them again it would mean that I was rejecting Him....That meant I was acting out my Faith because it was not something that was comming naturally to me and quite frankly I do not know one person that will tell you that they haven't been caught up in the same situation at one time or another when they had to keep themselves on the straight and narrow road because it seemed very easy to take the Wide and well traveled one at the time....

Since I've become a Christian I know of very little I haven't done that I used to do (there are exceptions) however, in between failures and even sometimes choosing the wrong thing I strive to do what God would want me to do. I have become angry at God or God's people and walked away more than once. Are you saying that means that I've rejected God and am no longer in the running? Your example is very good btw I understand that perfectly and can identify.

 

[Debi1967]

For me it is like this, I think of it this way if I am directly doing something that I know is directly against his teachings and I actively choose to do it anyway then yes I am rejecting the teachings so therefore I am rejecting Him that sent the teachings to me that I am to follow...that is why we are heeded to be careful and constantly on watch for those pitfalls that can drag us back because as it is said the ways of the World which we have been cleansed from will come back to tempt us to return....

Now if I stay in that rejection and actively continue to pursue that instead of the Lord instead of correcting the behaviour when I slip into those pitfalls which I and all human beings do then my Salvation is at risk because I will have to answer for that since I do know that I have been Saved by His Grace and because of that it is now on me to keep up on myself in my Faith and in my Works so that I can persevere until the end...

Do I believe that I can be forgiven? Yes I do...but I also believe that if I persist until the end walking on the wide and well traveled road then I am not assured of my Salvation because I did not repentent for the behaviour that I did wrong and I continued to reject Him until the end....

 

[Benedicta00]

Since I've become a Christian I know of very little I haven't done that I used to do (there are exceptions) however, in between failures and even sometimes choosing the wrong thing I strive to do what God would want me to do. I have become angry at God or God's people and walked away more than once. Are you saying that means that I've rejected God and am no longer in the running? Your example is very good btw I understand that perfectly and can identify.

It really is not as hard to understand as it seems. It is all about loving God above all else in your life. You can’t, won’t, will not ever be able to that unless you die to all that the self holds worthwhile. Think about what that means. If someone makes you mad for a good reason, it is dying to the desire to tell them off, the motivation is because you love God. When we die like this, we then rise as newly created people in Christ, we share also in the resurrection, not just the sufferings of the cross when we die to self.

Protestants have a different motivation and different our look. Frankly do they love God because He is good and all deserving of our love or do they love Him because He gives salvation?

They do the good they do because they are saved, they have their deal worked out for them and they can’t mess it up, so if they do good, fine but if they don’t that’s fine too because it is not about the works. To me, this is not only unbiblical but it insults the passion of Christ. You slap God in the face every time you sin and Jesus said, “what you do to the least (or not do for the least) you do unto me.”

This is what I was saying before about perfect love, those who do go to heaven have perfect love for God. You can’t tell me a Protestant has this if they think the HS will zap good works into them with no conscious effort on their part. If they can not at least die to themselves, do they really love God?

Dying to self perfects that love but giving into the flesh does not perfect or grow the love you have and when mortal sin is involved you kill any love of God that you have, repentance restores that love. You aren’t working, God did the work, He sent Jesus to die for us, the work is done but you have to cooperate with what has been done for you. It is kind of spoiled bratish to think you are forgiven no matter what you do. We would never think that attitude is oaky for our kids so why would God think it would be okay for us?

 

[MrZoom]

Hands and feet,



I sure hope you are not making a comment about the Mass being a liturgical fruitless work. Have mercy on you if you are, you know not what you say. It is the sacrifice of Christ so just how it could ever be fruitless is beyond me.

Off topic, but I thought it odd that 'Handsandfeet' would say such a thing while having Rich Mullins for an avatar. Mr. Mullins was in his last years receiving spiritual direction from a Catholic priest, and it was widely rumored that he was about to convert when he was killed in a 1997 auto accident.

EDIT: Not to mention the lyrics from his song "Screen Door":
Faith without works is like a song you can't sing/It's about as useless as a screen door on a submarine

 

[Erik3]

Being saved and your Salvation are two different things and that is what most people do not distinguish...

This I do not understand

You've said this a couple times, but I don't see the difference

I'm Sorry, could you please exlplain.

On another point, I don't think all Protostants think a person is automatically forgiven no matter what they do. I think the thought is a person can always be forgiven if they ask for forgivness not matter what they've done. At least that's my understanding.

Erik

 

[Jay2004]

a quote from Philip Melanchthon:

"He who does not love remains in death." Therefore it is impossible to say that a person is righteous by faith alone.
I agree with the above if you understand that faith must not be alone. But it does not follow from this that love is the cause of the remission of sins, just as it is necessary to add patience to faith, but it does not follow that our patience is a cause of our remission of sins. The exclusive particle does not exclude our vitues from being present, but it does exclude them as being the cause of our reconciliation, and this exclusionary idea does mean that the merit of Christ alone is the cause of our reconciliation. And we must also understand that it is necessary to remove our human imaginings from the righteousness of the Law which arises out of love for God. If human nature were without sin, it could truly love God, but because it is covered over with sin, it must first receive the remission of sins, and love cannot be kindled unless the remission of sins has been recognized and laid hold upon. And those who think that this can be recieved without the struggle of faith are thinking to weakly regarding the remission of sins.

Is he disagreeing with Luther?

Martin Chemnitz says:

The Testimonies of Scripture are clear, that the renewal of the new man, as also the mortification of the old, is not perfect and complete in this life but that it grows and is increased day by day until it is perfected in the next life, when this corruptible will have put on incorruption. Profitable also and necessary in the church are exhortations that the the regenerate should not neglect, extinguish, or cast away the gifts of the Spirit which they have recieved but that they stir them up with true and earnest exercises, calling on the help of the Holy Spirit, that He may give an increase of faith, hope, love, and of the other spiritual gifts; for what the punishment of spiritual negligence is the parable of the talents shows. There is also no doubt that faith is effectual through love, that it is the mother goods works, and that good works please God through faith for the sake of Christ. And in this sense the statement in James 2:21-24 can be understood and accepted appropriately and rightly, that through the numerous good works that followed Abraham is declared to have been truly justified by faith, and it is shown that faith is not empty and dead, but true and living.

What do you get of this?

I think these quotes support faith and works indirectly...

 

[Debi1967]

This I do not understand

You've said this a couple times, but I don't see the difference

I'm Sorry, could you please exlplain.

On another point, I don't think all Protostants think a person is automatically forgiven no matter what they do. I think the thought is a person can always be forgiven if they ask for forgivness not matter what they've done. At least that's my understanding.

Erik

Ok the Lord Died to wash away our Sins to make us clean again...This is being Saved by Grace ....this is the Gift of Hope that we have been given and that we have been given freely....

Our Slavation is something that each one of us must maintain....

We are told repeatedly that in order to obtain that Salvation we must persevere in order to obtain the assurance of the Gift but that until then we have no assurance of it just the Hope of it....

When we are washed clean of our previous selves if you will we are then given clear instructions as to what is expected of us....These things if they are adhered to will allow us to obtain our Salvation...

The difference with some Protestant teaching as opposed to ours is that they believe that you can repeatedly make the same mistakes over and over agian and still have the asurance of the Salvation in the end because all you need to do is ask for forgiveness for them....We believe that is not true that when we have been found lacking or engaging in sin that it is then upon us to then modify that in the future....Thus trying to achieve perfection as we are told to do by the Lord...although we do know that we will not be able to achieve it in theis life because we are fallible, if we are constantly trying to achieve that would mean that then we would then be constantly adjusting and learning what is right and aquiring accurate knowledge of Him which is also told of us to be doing....

If we keep engaging in the same behaviour over and over again without modifying our behaviour then do we really have the Faith that is necessary to begin with? Because if we did we would want to mdoify it even though it may be uncomfortable for us to do so because we know that it is pleasing to the Lord to do this....This would be putting the Lord first...If we keep repeating the same behaviours and then expect Him to forgive us over and over again for the same thing, when we are not even trying to obey Him does that not mean that we do not believe to begin with?

I hope this has helped if not ask some more?

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[twosid]

Ok...let me see if I understand the Catholic perspective.

God's grace saves me through faith.

I then work out my salvation by striving for purity and doing as God would have me to do. While this does not guarantee salvation/Heaven it gives you a much better chance than someone who becomes a Christian and then begins to abuse grace or for whatever reason they do as they please the remainder of their earthly existence and die that way. Correct or not?

 

[Debi1967]

Ok...let me see if I understand the Catholic perspective.

God's grace saves me through faith.

I then work out my salvation by striving for purity and doing as God would have me to do. While this does not guarantee salvation/Heaven it gives you a much better chance than someone who becomes a Christian and then begins to abuse grace or for whatever reason they do as they please the remainder of their earthly existence and die that way. Correct or not?

Yes that is correct....You have got it ....