Works?

[Credo]

twosid,

That's a pretty good explanation. As is written in St. Paul's Letter to the Romans:

Romans 2:6 For He will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

And this follows exactly what our Lord taught:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Our good deeds will definitely have value at the time of our judgement, just as a lack of good deeds will contribute to being judged harshly.

I often like to say that we are saved by Grace through Faith perfected by Works.

JMJ

 

[twosid]

Yes that is correct....You have got it ....

Finally........ Thanks to you and Michelle.

 

[Debi1967]

Finally........ Thanks to you and Michelle.

You are very Welcome....

 

[kel32]

Protestants have a different motivation and different our look. Frankly do they love God because He is good and all deserving of our love or do they love Him because He gives salvation?

Hi Shelb,

I love God because He is good and all deserving...

They do the good they do because they are saved, they have their deal worked out for them and they can’t mess it up, so if they do good, fine but if they don’t that’s fine too because it is not about the works. To me, this is not only unbiblical but it insults the passion of Christ. You slap God in the face every time you sin and Jesus said, “what you do to the least (or not do for the least) you do unto me.”

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13

Paul clearly states that we have a choice here: live according to the flesh, or live according to the spirit. One leads to death, the other to life. We have the choice.

"Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." 1 James 12

"So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." Phil. 2:12-13

"But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God." John 3:21

Just wanted to let you know that not all Prots believe in 'faith alone'...

~peace~

 

[Benedicta00]

This I do not understand

You've said this a couple times, but I don't see the difference

I'm Sorry, could you please exlplain.

On another point, I don't think all Protostants think a person is automatically forgiven no matter what they do. I think the thought is a person can always be forgiven if they ask for forgivness not matter what they've done. At least that's my understanding.

Erik

In addition to Debi response, it is also that regeneration, being born again means that we have been redeemed from original sin, but that is not the end of the road, we have to work out that “salvation” (promise of, rather) with fear and trembling.

And if Protestants believe in repentance, it all depends on which ones you talk to, some do and then again, some will say repentance is a work.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi Shelb,

I love God because He is good and all deserving...


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13

Paul clearly states that we have a choice here: live according to the flesh, or live according to the spirit. One leads to death, the other to life. We have the choice.

"Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." 1 James 12

"So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." Phil. 2:12-13

"But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God." John 3:21

Just wanted to let you know that not all Prots believe in 'faith alone'...

~peace~

It all depends on which ones you talk to.

 

[Benedicta00]

Ok...let me see if I understand the Catholic perspective.

God's grace saves me through faith.

Yes, God's grace is given to you freely in baptism; you are born again and given faith hope and love in seed form. You must grow those seeds with good works if you will have a living faith that results in salvation. We do not do good works because we are compelled to because we are born again but because we chose to love God over ourselves.

I then work out my salvation by striving for purity and doing as God would have me to do.

But because you are a sinner, you can not do this unless you cooperate with the graces God gives. God gives you the grace to do His will but if you do not cooperate with it, the grace will not be operative in your life. Another topic for you, do you know the differences in graces? Actual, sanctifying, sacramental, extraordinary, and chrisms?

While this does not guarantee salvation/Heaven it gives you a much better chance than someone who becomes a Christian and then begins to abuse grace or for whatever reason they do as they please the remainder of their earthly existence and die that way. Correct or not?

It is not a up to chance thing if you are good enough, it is if you rely on the divine mercy and not presume and cooperate with grace to do the works of mercy towards others. This in of itself does not save you but what it does to your soul is what saves you. Jesus said to be perfect as God is perfect. How can we? Trusting in the mercy of Christ, doing good works by cooperating with grace heals of fallen human nature, the wounds of sin that we all suffer from. When we accept grace and we do good works for the love of God, we grow in perfect love and that is what saves us. If you should die in a state of grace but you have not perfected your soul, there is purgatory.

 

[twosid]

Another topic for you, do you know the differences in graces? Actual, sanctifying, sacramental, extraordinary, and chrisms?

No...Do tell.... Should I start another thread or would you like to address it here?

 

[Benedicta00]

No...Do tell.... Should I start another thread or would you like to address it here?

Well there is God’s prevenient grace. This is the grace that God gives to us to accept the grace of justification, that would be regeneration to Catholics, to accept the calling or the prompting of the Holy Spirit calling you to Christ.

Actual grace is a transit grace, it is not sanctifying grace or also known as habitual grace, it is a grace that God gives to a person in order for them to be moved to do something they may not otherwise do, like risk their life to save someone from a burning building or leading them to repentance when they are in sin. Once the grace accomplishes what it set out it is gone.

Habitual or sanctifying grace is the divine life of God living in you, that is a on going state of grace unless you lose it through mortal sin. We receive or regain this grace through the sacraments.

Sacramental grace is the grace that each sacrament gives so we can accomplish the purpose of the sacrament. For example, in baptism, this grace is what helps us believe in God and helps us love God more in the Eucharist and helps us root out sin in confession, ect.

Chrisms are gifts of the Holy Spirit. Prophecy, healing ect. Extraordinary graces are what the saints have, visions, locutions, the stigmata, ect.

So when we say we are saved by grace, we really mean it. We can not come to Christ, have faith in God, do good works, repent when we fall into sin, persevere to the end unless we have the grace of God.

 

[twosid]

If you should die in a state of grace but you have not perfected your soul, there is purgatory.

This is confusing to me as it seemingly places the responsibility for santification on me and not God. How does this work and how does Purgatory work?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

This is confusing to me as it seemingly places the responsibility for santification on me and not God. How does this work and how does Purgatory work?

We must cooperate with God's grace, which sanctifies us, but we can't do anything on our own...that would be works righteousness, which the Church condemned at Trent.

 

[Benedicta00]

This is confusing to me as it seemingly places the responsibility for santification on me and not God. How does this work and how does Purgatory work?

God does give you many opportunities in your life to be a saint; you must cooperate with them. How would you think you would be perfected? How do you think the processes works?

Remember the bible says that nothing unclean will enter heaven, and that we must be holy as he is holy, be perfect as He is perfect. We grow in holiness and perfection of soul by dyeing to self and accepting our crosses. Suffering is the most effective. When ever we accept anything no matter how small it may seem as a grace from God whether that cross is from God’s permitted will or ordained will, this changes us, it heals us from the wounded fallen people we are to transformed people of grace.

You see, God did not come to fix our broken nature in one sweep, He came to heal it. It is not only about redemption, it is also about having life and having it abundantly. We are redeemed when we are baptized and that is a objectively done deal. Adam’s sin is gone from us and it can never come back no matter how bad we sin personally. But the human nature remains and as we are, we can not enter heaven this way. God wants us to be healed, freed from being a slave to sin, besides if you suffer from impatience and you do not root that out, do you think impatient people are sitting up in heaven? The act of death does not change who you are, if you have a grudge against someone, you think you can sit up in heaven with them? If they aggravated you here, they will also there.

Nothing unclean enters heaven, not even venial sin. This is what we would call venial sin; imperfections that stem from a broken, not healed human nature. We can go to confession and repent of our mortal sin and we may never even commit another mortal sin again and we can go to Mass every week, even everyday and receive communion in a state of grace but if we never cooperate with the graces that God sends to us daily to root out the defects of the human condition, the imperfections, the 7 deadly sins, our vices, ect, if we should die in a state of grace, with no mortal sin on your soul, we are saved but we may need to be purified in purgatory before we enter heaven because nothing unclean can enter. This is NOT a payment for sin; this is a purification process so that we can be made into the image of Christ. It can happen here or there but it has to happen. It is not just going to magically happen.

God gives back to us what we lost in the fall; He restores us but we have to cooperate with Him. St. Theresa Little Flower looked at everything in her life, what ever happened to her no matter how small or big as a grace and she looked for God’s will in everything, how God may make use of her sufferings and joys, works, ect as a way for her to grow in holiness. The saints really knew how this worked, they desired and asked God to send them crosses and sufferings because they knew the value in them and the literally experienced God in them. This is how we are purified and how we grow in love on earth and can become great saints, you can not become one by just avoiding sin and staying out oif trouble, that is what works based would be.

I know I have quoted this before but Mother Angelica says it best, “We are all called to be great saints, don’t miss the opportunity.”

 

[twosid]

Is anyone familiar with the "Antidote to the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent on the Doctrine of Justification (1547)?" by John Calvin? It is a long read but if some of you could comment on it I'd appreciate it. I'm only about half done with it but I thought I'd go ahead and see if I could get some response. I'd like to know your rebuttlal to this as I think I understand both sides now I just have to decide which I think is true.

http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/Antidote.htm

 

[nyj]

This is confusing to me as it seemingly places the responsibility for santification on me and not God. How does this work and how does Purgatory work?

Sanctification starts with God. We can only be sanctified through His grace that He bestows on us. However, there is a collaborative effort on our part, it's called "free will", and fueled by that grace, we shall endeavor to achieve greater love for Him. So, when we repent, we repent completely, perfectly, out of love for Him, not out of fear of Him.

Sin carries two aspects, eternal and temporal. Confession wipes away the eternal consequences of sin (possible damnation) but the temporal aspects remain. When someone does wrong, it is moral to not only apologize for what has been done but if possible repair the damage that was done, especially if it is within our power to do so. That is the temporal aspect.

For the sins we committed and were forgiven for, but never made restitution for, there is purgatory*.

*And indulgences : http://users.binary.net/polycarp/indulge.html