Works

[elman]

Sorry, I’m not clear on what you are trying to say.

I am saying you jumped to the wrong implication of what I was saying. I am saying that I agree with scripture that we will not reveive the grace that gives us eternal life if we do not love our neighbor. This does not mean our salvation is based on works. It means our salvation is based on grace and the grace is connected to our works.

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

There was no law in place that commanded Isaac to offer his son up for sacrifice, this he did by faith. The law was given to Israel much later as a schoolmaster:

There was a law. The Lord commanded Abraham to do it. His obedience is the proof of his faith. Just as our obedience to God's other laws are proof of our faith.

 

[Tawhano]

GOD'S ARMY
...God's other laws...

Thank you for your half-hearted attempt to debate with me. Did you notice the other scriptures I’ve posted and the message I demonstrated them to mean? What of those?

How do you know what God’s other laws are? Someone told you?

God’s other laws are written on our hearts not on paper.

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The laws of God are written. Why have so many Christians done away with the law? Why is the law not followed? Verse 18 clearly tells us that the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.

 

[skylark1]

The laws of God are written. Why have so many Christians done away with the law? Why is the law not followed? Verse 18 clearly tells us that the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.

Hi God's Army,

Jesus fulfilled the law.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luke 24:44-45
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.


​

 

[gort]

GA quote:

The laws of God are written. Why have so many Christians done away with the law? Why is the law not followed? Verse 18 clearly tells us that the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.

How many "thou shalts' " would you like to entertain here?

<><

 

[Apex]

Ephesians 4:10-1310 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:10-1311 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12-1312 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13-1313 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Why would he send out prophets if he ended prophets? And notice it says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith", and we have not come to a unity of the faith.

 

[Rescued One]

Ephesians 4:10-1310 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:10-1311 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12-1312 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13-1313 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Why would he send out prophets if he ended prophets? And notice it says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith", and we have not come to a unity of the faith.

Prophet: A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
A predictor; a soothsayer.
The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

In a sense our pastors are prophets. They tell us what God wants us to know.
Missionaries are apostles in that they go out with the message of the gospel. We have teachers. We have pastors.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So we aren't alone.

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Apex]

Prophet: A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
A predictor; a soothsayer.
The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

In a sense our pastors are prophets. They tell us what God wants us to know.
Missionaries are apostles in that they go out with the message of the gospel. We have teachers. We have pastors.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So we aren't alone.

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The verse says
"apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Not just "pastors and teachers".

 

[gort]

As an addendum to gwit post, I would like to add:

from the greek.....

the definition of "prophet" for the Ephesians verse:

G4396
&#960;&#961;&#959;&#966;&#951;&#769;&#964;&#951;&#962;
prophe&#772;te&#772;s
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet: - prophet.

versus "prophet" from Gen 20:7

H5030
&#1504;&#1489;&#1497;&#1488;
na&#770;bi&#770;y'
naw-bee'
From H5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man: - prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.

being the same from Exodus 7:1 H5030

being the same from Numbers 12:6 H5030

being the same from Deu 13:1 H5030

So there seems to be a difference in the meaning of prophet.


Does the lds system have "pastors"???



<><

 

[Rescued One]

The verse says
"apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Not just "pastors and teachers".

Read my previous posts. Then tell me why you have Seventies and High Priests in your church, why your deacons don't have wives, etc.

 

[gort]

As an addendum to post 110, and by that definition there are many prophets in the OC Church today.

.....and whenever I find a man in whom there rests the Spirit of God, the spirit within me leaps to hear the spirit within him, and we feel that we are one. The Spirit of God in one Christian soul recognizes the Spirit in another.

Spurgeon

and another fave of mine...

Act 2:16 But235 this5124 is2076 that which was spoken2046 by1223 the3588 prophet4396 Joel;2493
Act 2:17 And2532 it shall come to pass2071 in1722 the3588 last2078 days,2250 saith3004 God,2316 I will pour out1632 of575 my3450 Spirit4151 upon1909 all3956 flesh:4561 and2532 your5216 sons5207 and2532 your5216 daughters2364 shall prophesy,4395 and2532 your5216 young men3495 shall see3700 visions,3706 and2532 your5216 old men4245 shall dream1797 dreams:1798


G1798
&#949;&#787;&#957;&#965;&#769;&#960;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;
enupnion
en-oop'-nee-on
From G1722 and G5258; something seen in sleep, that is, a dream (vision in a dream): - dream.


<><

 

[A New Dawn]

Then tell me why you have Seventies...........

Christ sent out the seventy. They were the special witnesses.

 

[Tawhano]

GOD'S ARMY said:
The laws of God are written. Why have so many Christians done away with the law? Why is the law not followed? Verse 18 clearly tells us that the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.

Good question. I will start another thread to answer this for you.

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

Hi God's Army,



Jesus fulfilled the law.

Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luke 24:44-45
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.



​

All has not yet been fulfilled. Christ will come to earth to reign once again. Don't you believe in the second coming of Christ? The literal gathering of Israel? The book of Revelations goes into great detail as to the fulfilment of all things and yet it raises so many more questions.

Yes, Christ will fulfil all things, but have the earth or the heavens passed away?

 

[skylark1]

All has not yet been fulfilled. Christ will come to earth to reign once again. Don't you believe in the second coming of Christ? The literal gathering of Israel? The book of Revelations goes into great detail as to the fulfilment of all things and yet it raises so many more questions.

Yes, Christ will fulfil all things, but have the earth or the heavens passed away?

Hi God's Army,

Good questions.

Yes, I believe in the second coming.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law of Moses. I did not say that all prophesy has been fulfilled, but that Jesus has fulfilled the Law. Maybe I should have posted the quote from Luke in context:

Luke 24

44Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." 45And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
​

The Law was fulfilled when Jesus offered the one perfect sacrifice:

Hebrews 10



11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

​

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

Hi God's Army,

Good questions.

Yes, I believe in the second coming.



I believe that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law of Moses. I did not say that all prophesy has been fulfilled, but that Jesus has fulfilled the Law. Maybe I should have posted the quote from Luke in context:

Luke 24


44Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." 45And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

​

The Law was fulfilled when Jesus offered the one perfect sacrifice:

Hebrews 10



11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


​

You and I are not in disagreement on this issue. The issue that I had with the law being done away is that there is still a law. The law is not the same law as that of Moses, but is the higher law that was origionally given to the Children of Israel and then lost due to disobedience. This is the law which is typified by Christ and is the main body of which He speaks at the sermon on the mount. Toward the end of Matthew 5 we see the old law and the new law compared side by side by the Savior.

GA

 

[Tawhano]

GOD'S ARMY said:
Toward the end of Matthew 5 we see the old law and the new law compared side by side by the Savior.

You missed a very important lesson Jesus was teaching in those verses if all you got out of that was he was comparing them. Jesus was explaining to them the fault with laws. The laws were meant as a schoolteacher to bring them to Christ, but like you they missed the point.

As a side note did you bother to check out the thread I started for you?

 

[Rescued One]

You and I are not in disagreement on this issue. The issue that I had with the law being done away is that there is still a law. The law is not the same law as that of Moses, but is the higher law that was origionally given to the Children of Israel and then lost due to disobedience. This is the law which is typified by Christ and is the main body of which He speaks at the sermon on the mount. Toward the end of Matthew 5 we see the old law and the new law compared side by side by the Savior.

GA

The purpose of the law was to show that all are guilty before God. Once we recognize our unability to keep the law, we also realize we are dependent on God's mercy and grace.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


We, as Christians, now live in the liberty and power of God’s grace by the Spirit, not the rule of law.

Galatians 5
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love.


Romans 8
2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[skylark1]

You and I are not in disagreement on this issue. The issue that I had with the law being done away is that there is still a law. The law is not the same law as that of Moses, but is the higher law that was origionally given to the Children of Israel and then lost due to disobedience. This is the law which is typified by Christ and is the main body of which He speaks at the sermon on the mount. Toward the end of Matthew 5 we see the old law and the new law compared side by side by the Savior.

GA

Hi GA,

Let's back up a bit. Previously, you quoted from Matthew 5:

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
​

Then you asked:

The laws of God are written. Why have so many Christians done away with the law? Why is the law not followed? Verse 18 clearly tells us that the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.
​

Which law do you believe that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 5? When He spoke of the "law or the prophets" it seems to me that He was speaking of the law of Moses.

Or do you think that He was speaking of the law of Christ: Love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves?