Works .... who does them ...are they nessary for salvation

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

verses please opinions welcomed but bring the word to make arguement solid

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

John 3:21 But he that pratices truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are accomplished by God.

this verse has been argue with me since people do not like the greek interptation of by God instead of almost all bibles saying in God.

two ways to interpt ev in greek

in the locative = in or on
in the instumental = by

argue if you must but with other verses it makes it clear

Eph 3:20 Now to Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us.

colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to worship for you, and to ask that we might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 empowered with all power, according to His glorious power, which hath made us meet to partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:


What will be argued here will be free will vs God soverignity....

which both are in play here.....

 

[snerkel]

verses please opinions welcomed but bring the word to make arguement solid

Many "do" good works...

Matthew 7:21-29

21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell--and great and complete was the fall of it.
28 When Jesus had finished these sayings [the Sermon on the Mount], the crowds were astonished and overwhelmed with bewildered wonder at His teaching,
29 For He was teaching as One Who had [and was] authority, and not as [did] the scribes.

Works do not save...

Romans 4:1-8

1 [BUT] IF so, what shall we say about Abraham, our forefather humanly speaking--[what did he] find out? [How does this affect his position, and what was gained by him?]
2 For if Abraham was justified (established as just by acquittal from guilt) by good works [that he did, then] he has grounds for boasting. But not before God!
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God).
4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him).
5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God).
6 Thus David congratulates the man and pronounces a blessing on him to whom God credits righteousness apart from the works he does:
7 Blessed and happy and to be envied are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered up and completely buried.
8 Blessed and happy and to be envied is the person of whose sin the Lord will take no account nor reckon it against him.

We are saved by Grace, not works.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,
5 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
10 For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

 

[theseed]

I cite Romans 5.1-5, and Eph. 2.8-10 to show that faith brings us into a saving relationship, but grace keeps us there, and in Eph. 2.10, it says we are God's workmanship, made to do good works.

 

[aanjt]

verses please opinions welcomed but bring the word to make arguement solid

In Matthew 25, it is interesting to note that when Jesus seperated the sheep from the goats, he asked them, "Did you feed me, give me drink, clothe me, visit me..." Those are works, plain and simple. But what is more interesting is the question he did not ask. He did not ask if they believe he was the Messiah. Now, I do believe that Jesus is God in the flesh (before I get flamed), I just find that very interesting.

Also, in James, it states that faith without works is dead. So, maybe works themselves do not save, but if there are no works at all, what is that saying about your faith? According to scripture, it is dead. We show our faith, not by announcing it off of the rooftops, but by how we present ourselves to the world. When we pass by someone, or talk to someone, how we present ourselves is the Christ they see (especially if they know we are Christian by shirts, necklaces, etc). If we are rude, mean, cruel, that is the Christ they see.

The thing is, without people really realizing it, many believe that you must do at least 2 works to be saved. 1) say a "sinners prayer" and 2) be baptized
If it has to be done to be saved, it is then a work.

Works are not bad. I have heard too many people who condemn works (ironically it is usually the same ones who demand immersion for baptism, etc, in my experience). But, when works are done, are they being done to glorify yourself or God? If it is for yourself, it is in vain. Christ talks about works. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit those in prison and who are sick, give drink to the thirsty. He even had his disciples go out and cast out demons. That is a work. We know who Christ is because of his works, including dying on the cross, which was a work to save us from our sins.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Also, in James, it states that faith without works is dead. So, maybe works themselves do not save, but if there are no works at all, what is that saying about your faith? According to scripture, it is dead. We show our faith, not by announcing it off of the rooftops, but by how we present ourselves to the world. When we pass by someone, or talk to someone, how we present ourselves is the Christ they see (especially if they know we are Christian by shirts, necklaces, etc). If we are rude, mean, cruel, that is the Christ they see.

The thing is, without people really realizing it, many believe that you must do at least 2 works to be saved. 1) say a "sinners prayer" and 2) be baptized
If it has to be done to be saved, it is then a work.

Works are not bad. I have heard too many people who condemn works (ironically it is usually the same ones who demand immersion for baptism, etc, in my experience). But, when works are done, are they being done to glorify yourself or God? If it is for yourself, it is in vain. Christ talks about works. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit those in prison and who are sick, give drink to the thirsty. He even had his disciples go out and cast out demons. That is a work. We know who Christ is because of his works, including dying on the cross, which was a work to save us from our sins.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

In James it talks about work the example he uses is Abraham in James 2:21 / gen 22:10 which is about 30 years after He had believed in Gen 15:6 / Hebrews 11:8-9

But my favorite verse is

romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

In Matt 7:21-23 they did mighty works BUT GOD DID NOT KNOW THEM!!!

Works is not apart of salvation but about family truth...

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

another favorite is King David He had FAITH but how about his works ...

MURDER

ADULTRY

just to name a few but he is saved according to scripture....

 

[aanjt]

In James it talks about work the example he uses is Abraham in James 2:21 / gen 22:10 which is about 30 years after He had believed in Gen 15:6 / Hebrews 11:8-9

But my favorite verse is

romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

In Matt 7:21-23 they did mighty works BUT GOD DID NOT KNOW THEM!!!

Works is not apart of salvation but about family truth...

I never said that we are justified by our works. If we have faith, we will have works. They go hand in hand if our faith is alive and not dead. Jesus talked about works, it is very evident in Matthew 25. He said for those that did not feed the poor, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick and those in prison, they were cast into hell.

If you love someone, you show them by what you do for them, correct? You show your love to that person by doing things. If we love God, how much more are we to do this? Are we not to do any works at all? What if someone said that they loved you, but sat around all day, did not help with the children, cleaning, bills, did not even help bring in an income when they were capable of doing so (I know there are instances where a person cannot work). They did not even tell you that they loved you. If someone asked if s/he loved you, they would say "yes" but that would be the end of it. Would you eventually wonder if they really loved you at all?

God is our creator. I want to show God my love for Him and that is through works, through the work that He wants me to do. He doesn't want us to sit by and give lip service about how much we believe in Him but then refuse to do anything that He wants us to do.

A question. Is your faith an intellectual faith or is it a faith of action? Maybe we need to define what faith is first. For me, faith is defnintely action. It is beyond intellectual thought. Faith of action must have action. Works. Now when I say works, I don't mean go around boasting of what you do, because that means you want all the honor and glory (IMO). Show God how much you love Him. Do His will, do His work that He has asked us to do.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Faith = definition

Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Works are an outward sign of salvation per James when compared with other scripture. We get into faith without works is dead, then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So if we have faith we will in turn do works. So in essence it is not through works that we obtain salvation but through salvation we attain the ability to do works that are truly pleasing to God as we are not capable of that prior to salvation. I will be glad to post the scriptures related to what I have stated if anyone needs them.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

romans 4:6 Even as David also described the blessesness of the man , unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

 

[nwmsugrad]

Salvation (justification) has nothing to do with good works otherwise salvation would not be a free gift. Progressive santification (disipleship) has everything to do with good works.

Romans 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is creditied as righteousness" NASB

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." NASB

 

[hraedisc]

"Justification only" is not the gospel. Otherwise, there would have been need for an altar of sacrifice only, and no need for a tabernacle with the holy place, the most holy place, or a high priest. If that was true, there would only be Passover in the Spring and no Day of Atonement in the Fall.

We need to study the sanctuary services.
Psalm 77
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

 

[hraedisc]

Matthew 5:22
... but whosoever (does that include YOU, reader?) shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man (does that include YOU?) that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man (does that include YOU?) shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man (does that include YOU?) shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

what are you saying????

 

[hraedisc]

You mean, what is Jesus saying? or what is the angel saying?

 

[Chappie]

verses please opinions welcomed but bring the word to make arguement solid

No!!!! They are not necessary for salvation, but they are a necessary part of salvation

 

[Received]

But again and again, the idea of working for one's salvation does not imply belief, but of the possibility of earning something that is otherwise free, which would otherwise be accepted only by belief. This seems a great muddle to reformed thought. Romans 4:6 was quoted here: I'll quote the previous two verses:

"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." -- v.4,5 (NASB)

Notice two things: works bring debt, and belief is not work unto debt. To think so is really the most preposterous of all statements: that because we accept freely and with commitment a gift that through this tenacity in holding it we deserve it!? No -- a gift, no matter how it is accepted, is a gift nonetheless, for the offer is paid for, as it is with God and our salvation.

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

James and Ephesians both describe it like this. Works do NOTHING to merit favor (grace) from God, but follow naturally as one experiences the Love of God in their lives.

Eph 2:8-10 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Works do nothing to MERIT grace from God.

James 2 says this,"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?"

But it says here that faith without deeds, is no faith at all.


Clear enough?

 

[Chappie]

James and Ephesians both describe it like this. Works do NOTHING to merit favor (grace) from God, but follow naturally as one experiences the Love of God in their lives.

Eph 2:8-10 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Works do nothing to MERIT grace from God.

James 2 says this,"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?"

But it says here that faith without deeds, is no faith at all.


Clear enough?

Naaaah, not quite. James really said that faith without works is dead. The bible says that all men have faith. But it is what we do with that faith that makes it faith that is alive.

If you do not utilize the faith that God gave you, James says that it is dead faith. But if you utilize that faith to produce good works, it is the faith through which God will save you...