Works Required to Prove Faith

[Targaryen]

Pity the poor paraplegics and quadrplegics who cannot do anything other than "sit on their butts". I guess they can't be saved.

A very tasteless and fraudulent comment that completely misses the point.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A very tasteless and fraudulent comment that completely misses the point.

I agree. However, I think you miss the point concerning what constitutes faith. Faith is not mere intellectual assent with facts. Most people are quite comfortable with giving such assent and thinking that because they have done so they are thus saved. This is not restricted to Christianity but seems to be an entirely human condition found across the entire spectrum of belief systems. Faith is what actually drives a person. It is what the person, in his very core is made of. If one says he believes he is the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte, as some have in the past, and it is his actual faith, then he will live the life of Bonaparte to the best of his understanding. However, if a person is paid to play the part in a theatrical setting, he will do his utmost to portray the character so that others are convinced that he is Bonaparte, but outside of the theater he will live his life according to his core beliefs and will not simulate the role he has chosen for the theater.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree. However, I think you miss the point concerning what constitutes faith. Faith is not mere intellectual assent with facts. Most people are quite comfortable with giving such assent and thinking that because they have done so they are thus saved. This is not restricted to Christianity but seems to be an entirely human condition found across the entire spectrum of belief systems. Faith is what actually drives a person. It is what the person, in his very core is made of. If one says he believes he is the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte, as some have in the past, and it is his actual faith, then he will live the life of Bonaparte to the best of his understanding. However, if a person is paid to play the part in a theatrical setting, he will do his utmost to portray the character so that others are convinced that he is Bonaparte, but outside of the theater he will live his life according to his core beliefs and will not simulate the role he has chosen for the theater.

So that leads to a question of what is a good work and what is not, and whether an external observer can ever truly discern the difference.

Demas appears to have fooled Paul for quite a long while.

 

[BenBud]

How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?

Suppose a married man is on fire for the Lord. He spends much of his time spreading the gospel, serving the poor, and generally being a good Christian. Then he starts having an affair. He simultaneously loves the Lord but also gives into the desires of the flesh. He says he still believes Jesus is the savior and he truly does believe Jesus is the savior. He just can't pass up the huge temptation. Does he have true saving faith or not? He thinks he does - do you think so?

Well it looks like he was saved. Then later in life he fell away to his own sinful desires. If you are indulging in deliberate sin and you don't repent of it then that sin separates you from God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

 

[Albion]

How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?

]
God can do whatever he wants, saintboniface, but it is clear that even the just man falls seven times a day and that even saved believers do sin. That remains part of our nature, even though we are FORGIVEN. You continue to think in terms of earning salvation by being good enough, even though you don't have any idea what "good enough" amounts to.

 

[BenBud]

]
God can do whatever he wants, saintboniface, but it is clear that even the just man falls seven times a day and that even saved believers do sin. That remains part of our nature, even though we are FORGIVEN. You continue to think in terms of earning salvation by being good enough, even though you don't have any idea what "good enough" amounts to.

Yes, GOD is the judge at the end of the day. Sinning and deliberate sin are two different things. My "good enough" is trying to live the way Jesus did. And at the point of salvation, when we are buried with Christ and raised a new, how can you work for something supernatural to happen to you? You can't do anything to receive the Holy Spirit. God does that through Christ and your obedience to him.

 

[Albion]

Yes, GOD is the judge at the end of the day. Sinning and deliberate sin are two different things.

That is true, and I think we can agree on it.

My "good enough" is trying to live the way Jesus did.

NOT if these works can either earn you salvation or fall short. If that is yout theology, "giving it a good try" obviously is not adequate. There has to be some direction or quota if that is what the church is going to tell people is the difference between salvation or being lost.

 

[BenBud]

NOT if these works can either earn you salvation or fall short. If that is your theology, "giving it a good try" obviously is not adequate. There has to be some direction or quota if that is what the church is going to tell people is the difference between salvation or being lost.

What are you even saying? What do you think we have to do to be saved?

 

[Albion]

What do you think we have to do to be saved?

That was my question to you.

Your church teaches that faith (sometimes) and works (always) are what saves.

"Saintboniface" named a few general categories of good works, but it seemed to me that this isn't much guidance for church members who are told that their salvation is dependent upon a lifetime of doing good deeds...which, by the way, many Catholics on this forum have reaffirmed. But, of course, none of them has been able to answer the very obvious questions of 'which acts, 'how many' and so on, that it will take. To me, this seems rather important, if you are one who accepts that church's theology as correct.

 

[RDKirk]

That was my question to you.

Your church teaches that faith (sometimes) and works (always) are what saves.

"Saintboniface" named a few general categories of good works, but it seemed to me that this isn't much guidance for church members who are told that their salvation is dependent upon a lifetime of doing good deeds...which, by the way, many Catholics on this forum have reaffirmed. But, of course, none of them has been able to answer the very obvious questions of 'which acts, 'how many' and so on, that it will take. To me, this seems rather important, if you are one who accepts that church's theology as correct.

And...

Can I take a vacation from good works, or must I do a good work every day? Do I lose salvation for the period of time I'm not doing good works? Is it better to do good works up front to build up an account, or can I procrastinate as long as I dare?

And as I asked earlier, exactly what is a good work? If I was addicted to porn and break that addiction, is that a good work? If I dressed like a floozy before but then bought a nice, modest church dress, is that a good work? Or must good works be of a specific kind?

 

[Albion]

And...

Can I take a vacation from good works, or must I do a good work every day? Do I lose salvation for the period of time I'm not doing good works? Is it better to do good works up front to build up an account, or can I procrastinate as long as I dare?

And as I asked earlier, exactly what is a good work? If I was addicted to porn and break that addiction, is that a good work? If I dressed like a floozy before but then bought a nice, modest church dress, is that a good work? Or must good works be of a specific kind?

Thanks for your comments. They bring better focus to the issue than I must have been giving.

 

[NannaNae]

2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith.




"good" as God defines and judges 'good' not man/ religion/ denominations. so obedience to his work/will would be good .. as he defines it.. will produce his fruit which is GOOD to eat..
ok so like we may not see what he has put before us as good and or beneficial to anything in anyway in the short run especially . I mean David started just watching sheep, he killed a lion and oh then killed a giants , then was then singing to a demon possessed king , then running from a demon possessed king then hiding in caves with debtors and complainers , then did a job like a sheriff .
which of these jobs/ deeds / more faithful/ more spiritual and thus seems "good"er or looks like "good works"..... to you than the others ? but they were all part of God redemption of David's inner life . Now what David did better than most was trust God through all of it , no matter how awful and hopeless it looked to him at times . and thus in that time frame he grew in his faithfulness and trust in the Lord. that was the good works.
to become what he designed us to be from the foundations of the world.. not our own will and our own plan of what is "good" for us to be or do .

good works is what he is set before us and we are to do it with our whole heart as unto the lord.... no matter what it is.. to be faithful in little or much . and when you do that you will turn and find people are set free and lives are changed around you because he did it you when you were not paying attention to it.
faithful means not a sinner..

now the faithful will not sin( freak out , act out , weird out, do narcissistic , or nasty out ) while doing that work he has set before us to do... if we value that job or not , we are to remain faithful in all the small things . Then fruit that is eatable to others will appear because he is doing it through us if we remain faithful to him and his word . because he is life, his will is life , and life will be produced in and around us and through us .

 

[Albion]

2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith.

I think we all agree on this. Unfortunately, it doesn't help one bit in explaining what's expected of a person who DOES have the faith and belongs to a church that insists faith doesn't save but, rather, that works count towards salvation along with the faith.

"good" as God defines and judges 'good' not man/ religion/ denominations. so obedience to his work/will would be good .. as he defines it.. will produce his fruit which is GOOD to eat..
ok so like we may not see what he has put before us as good and or beneficial to anything in anyway in the short run especially . I mean David started just watching sheep, he killed a lion and oh then killed a giants , then was then singing to a demon possessed king , then running from a demon possessed king then hiding in caves with debtors and complainers , then did a job like a sheriff .
which of these jobs/ deeds / more faithful/ more spiritual and thus seems "good"er or looks like "good works"..... to you than the others ?

Yep. That would seem to be the question we've been asking, all right.

but they were all part of God redemption of David's inner life . Now what David did better than most was trust God through all of it , no matter how awful and hopeless it looked to him at times . and thus in that time frame he grew in his faithfulness and trust in the Lord. that was the good works.

The churches that teach "works righteousness" do not consider faithfulness and trust to be "good works." They are referring instead to acts of charity and mercy.

faithful means not a sinner..

now the faithful will not sin( freak out , act out , weird out, do narcissistic , or nasty out ) while doing that work he has set before us to do... if we value that job or not we are to remain faithful in all the small things

Well, most Christians wouldn't agree to that. We do sin after conversion. As was noted by someone else, deliberate sin is another matter and would call the faith of that person into question if persistent, but the saved certainly do sin.

 

[BenBud]

That was my question to you.

Your church teaches that faith (sometimes) and works (always) are what saves.

"Saintboniface" named a few general categories of good works, but it seemed to me that this isn't much guidance for church members who are told that their salvation is dependent upon a lifetime of doing good deeds...which, by the way, many Catholics on this forum have reaffirmed. But, of course, none of them has been able to answer the very obvious questions of 'which acts, 'how many' and so on, that it will take. To me, this seems rather important, if you are one who accepts that church's theology as correct.

My church teaches that faith (always) and works (follows) are what saves.

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was "declared righteous" before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by "believing" faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith "working in love" (Galatians 5:6). Isn't this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by "works of law" (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He's condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn't justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham's life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God's providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he's "declared righteous" (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.

 

[Albion]

My church teaches that faith (always) and works (follows) are what saves.

If so, it doesn't look like you are in any position to answer the question we've been asking about the Catholic churches and their position on works righteousness, so maybe "that's that," as they say. I started out talking with saintboniface about this and then it switched to your questions and comments, so maybe that accounts for the problem.

 

[NannaNae]

We do sin after conversion. As was noted by someone else, deliberate sin is another matter and would call the faith of that person into question if persistent, but the saved certainly do sin.

well but he also says " my people perish for a lack of knowledge.." and we aren't any different than they were . in that how much of what we sow and reap as sin after
we "convert " is done because we don't want to know his definitions either?

in God what we don't know will hurt us.

so
faithful means knowing what sin is by his definitions not ours.

like a faithful spouse... and unfaithful one.. everyone needs to learn what that means to the spouse..

but he only rewards the faithful as he defines it with his life / with more of life/ with more of him , and charity and mercy and forgiveness and ( all the fruits of the spirit) will be made evident some point in his process or you aren't on the process and need to get with him on that issue soon..

Hos 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 

[Albion]

well but he also says " my people perish for a lack of knowledge.." and we aren't any different than they were . in that how much of what we sow and reap as sin after
we "convert " is done because we don't want to know his definitions either?

in God what we don't know will hurt us.

so
faithful means knowing what sin is by his definitions not ours.

like a faithful spouse... and unfaithful one.. everyone needs to learn what that means to the spouse..

but he only rewards the faithful as he defines it with his life / with more of life/ with more of him , and charity and mercy and forgiveness and ( all the fruits of the spirit) will be made evident some point in his process or you aren't on the process and need to get with him on that issue soon..

I think that the "problem" here is that you are thinking that "faithful" equates to sinlessness. It doesn't.

 

[NannaNae]

I think that the "problem" here is that you are thinking that "faithful" equates to sinlessness. It doesn't.

you hope...
but Love God, love your neighbor, do not eat /meat food sacrificed to idols and abstain from all forms of sexual immorality..... he is not playing around , these are sins lead to death. death of what?
we can only guess now .

God is not going to be mocked in these matters mankind will reap what he sows.
if any of you want to play loose and free with these matters ..
good luck your on your own!

 

[bbbbbbb]

So that leads to a question of what is a good work and what is not, and whether an external observer can ever truly discern the difference.

Demas appears to have fooled Paul for quite a long while.

Some folks are really good actors. I am glad that I don't need to judge others. That is God's business and He knows the heart.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?

Who would we be 'proving' our faith to? Jesus already knows our hearts and knows all about us, He knows us better than we know ourselves.