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Works Required to Prove Faith

saintboniface

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Hey if Martin Luther can say it I don't see you guys can't!!

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." - Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says" page 1509

Of course I found this on Wikipedia, I don't have Plass' book, and it always seems dubious when sayings aren't found in an actual text.
 
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St_Worm2

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What exactly is gained by re-enacting this argument over and over?

Both classic positions accept that salvation and better behaviour are inseparable. Neither side holds that we are saved by belief In the correct soterological model. The details are not going to be resolved by going over the same ground time and time again.

(FWIW, I think both have some handle on the truth and both are partly missing the point - salvation is becoming more fully human; more perfectly the image of God in and for his creation.

Hi Ebia, the problem is that many here (and elsewhere) do not hold to the "correct soteriological model" (which I believe is most aptly and concisely stated by Calvin in this case .. see his quote in my signature lines below). You are correct, of course, if simply believing that He is God was enough, the demons would be entering Heaven before us because at least they "shudder" at the thought of Him .. James 2:19 (unlike most of the non-Christians I know).

Is it really any surprise though that the material cause of the Reformation is still a point of contention among us? Quite frankly, I'm encouraged by what's going on here in two different ways. First, that we are still talking and looking for new ways to better understand one another's position (and our own) about this crucial matter. And second, that at the heart of our debates seems to be a true and honest interest in getting at the truth, for ourselves and for each other (much more than simply trying to prove that "our side" is right and "theirs" isn't, like we seem to do in so many other threads about other subjects .. :doh:).

So for me anyway, I think this is all a good thing. I just wish we could always remember to treat each other with the respect that brothers and sisters in Christ deserve or, if nothing else, at least treat each other as St. Peter admonishes us to do for those outside the faith, with "gentleness and reverence" (1 Peter 3:15).

I think this is especially important in a public place like this where so many non-Christians are witness to how we act toward one another. What they perhaps don't realize, and what we must never forget, is that most, if not all of this kind of behavior is due to the impersonal nature of this place (and others just like it). We are not, after all, sitting in the same room together, face to face.

I am part of a denomination (Evangelical Free Church) that allows several very differing theological views to exist together (e.g. - Calvinism and Arminianism are BOTH considered acceptable soteriological understandings of the Gospel). My Wesleyan friends and I disagree about many things publically, but we would never attack one another or believe the other to be any less a child of God.

Yours and His,
David
 
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Albion

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Hey if Martin Luther can say it I don't see you guys can't!!

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." - Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says" page 1509
There's nothing there that we haven't covered already--many times.

Works...they do not cause salvation..
 
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saintboniface

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There's nothing there that we haven't covered already--many times.

Works...they do not cause salvation..

So you agree with that quote or not? Works are required for salvation but they do not cause salvation. A simple yes will work just fine.
 
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Albion

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So you agree with that quote or not?
I do not agree with your (mis)interpretation of its meaning, no.

But that seems to be the standard operating procedure for Catholic theology these days--confuse the meaning by reinterpreting the wording. For example,

Women deacons? No, but women as "Eucharistic Ministers," yes.

Purgatory? No purgation anymore, but "purification" instead.

Divorce? No, but easy "annullments" that accomplish the same thing.


You're familiar with all of those, of course. So also with trying to make Works be efficacious. But good Works are NOT efficacious when the issue is salvation.
 
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saintboniface

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I do not agree with your (mis)interpretation of its meaning, no.

But that seems to be the standard operating procedure for Catholic theology these days--confuse the meaning by reinterpreting the wording. For example,

Women deacons? No, but women as "Eucharistic Ministers," yes.
Purgatory? No purgation anymore, but "purification" instead.
Divorce? No, but easy "annullments" that accomplish the same thing.

You're familiar with all of those, of course. So also with trying to make Works be efficacious. But good Works are NOT efficacious when the issue is salvation.

You are impossible. The statement clearly says that works do not cause salvation so you wouldn't be admitting that works were efficacious for salvation. Somebody else should be able to affirm this statement as correct from a sola fide viewpoint.

An extraordinary minister of holy communion distributes communion, that's it. A mechanical act. A far cry from a woman deacon. I didn't know that purgatory was yesterday's news - start a thread and tell me all about it. I can't wait for purgatory. While the number of annulments may provide some inference that they are easy - the real test of easiness would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
 
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Albion

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You are impossible. The statement clearly says that works do not cause salvation so you wouldn't be admitting that works were efficacious for salvation.
Am I? Then what would you call someone who comes onto a discussion board and issues "yes or no" demands instead of discussing?

But if you must be placated, I agree that works do not cause salvation.

An extraordinary minister of holy communion distributes communion, that's it. A mechanical act.
That's the role historically played by deacons, as well as visiting the sick in their homes, which "Eucharistic ministers" also are assigned to do.

I didn't know that purgatory was yesterday's news
It is with most Catholics nowadays., clergy included. That's evident on all the threads here where they labor soooo hard to redefine it into something nice and short and not at all punitive.

While the number of annulments may provide some inference that they are easy - the real test of easiness would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
$800 + a statement for the record...and it's a done deal. I'd call that relatively easy (and lucrative).
 
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saintboniface

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Am I? Then what would you call someone who comes onto a discussion board and issues "yes or no" demands instead of discussing?

But if you must be placated, I agree that works do not cause salvation.

That's the role historically played by deacons, as well as visiting the sick in their homes, which "Eucharistic ministers" also are assigned to do.

It is with most Catholics nowadays., clergy included. That's evident on all the threads here where they labor soooo hard to redefine it into something nice and short and not at all punitive.

$800 + a statement for the record...and it's a done deal. I'd call that relatively easy (and lucrative).

I honestly thought you were more versed in Catholicism than this. These are kindergarten topics. Only the dissenters (clergy included) labor to redefine purgatory (I'll take your word for it that they do). I think purgatory is an awesome show of God's justice and mercy - you can be forgiven and have eternal life but you do the crime you pay the time!!

I know for certain that not all dioceses charge to examine a case of nullity. I'm not sure that any charge. You can't possibly believe that motivation is for an easy $800. At best, there are officials who try hard to justify an annulment out of compassion for the petitioner.

Do you believe Martin Luther actually made the statement shown above?
 
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Albion

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I honestly thought you were more versed in Catholicism than this.
Well, you are correct about that. But at the same time, it gets tiresome playing little games with words and dealing with gotcha gimmicks when having a calm, fact-based discussion is supposed to be the objective here. Understand?

Only the dissenters (clergy included) labor to redefine purgatory (I'll take your word for it that they do).
Hmm. I seldom hear Pope John Paul II described as a "dissenter." Interesting.

I think purgatory is an awesome show of God's justice and mercy - you can be forgiven and have eternal life but you do the crime you pay the time!!
I guess we could all come up with our ideal concept of what we'd do if we were God for a day, but all that matters is what God actually did provide--and it's often not what our society thinks is fair or equalitarian.

I know for certain that not all dioceses charge to examine a case of nullity. I'm not sure that any charge. You can't possibly believe that motivation is for an easy $800.
Oh, I'll agree that a few million dollars a year for doing a clerical task might not be the only motivation, and I'm more concerned that annulments are divorces by a different name, regardless of whether or not a fee is charged. But I think even you have to admit that such a fee is exploitive, considering that nothing like it is charged for weddings or baptisms.

Do you believe Martin Luther actually made the statement shown above?
I don't recognize it offhand, but I'm willing to believe he did, sure. Luther was a great one for thinking aloud and seeing the grey areas in life that many other people miss. I'd recommend that you not take a single sentence out of context if you want to know Luther. He is truly one of most important figures in all Western history, not just of Church history.
 
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saintboniface

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Well, you are correct about that. But at the same time, it gets tiresome playing little games with words and dealing with gotcha gimmicks when having a calm, fact-based discussion is supposed to be the objective here. Understand?

There is no gotcha game going here. In fact, I though I was just undoing Luther's little word game. The game that allowed Luther to diminish works. I thought some form of my original statements (or Luther's) would be acceptable because it still makes the distinction between the cause of salvation.
 
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Albion

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There is no gotcha game going here. In fact, I though I was just undoing Luther's little word game. The game that allowed Luther to diminish works. I thought some form of my original statements (or Luther's) would be acceptable because it still makes the distinction between the cause of salvation.

Just to be clear, that matter of Luther's statement was only a small part of what I was referring to.
 
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ContraMundum

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Hey if Martin Luther can say it I don't see you guys can't!!

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." - Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says" page 1509

Of course I found this on Wikipedia, I don't have Plass' book, and it always seems dubious when sayings aren't found in an actual text.

Well, if you want to quote Luther- excerpts from the Preface of his commentary on Romans:

"That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself. That is what Paul means in chapter 3 when, after he has thrown out the works of the law, he sounds as though the wants to abolish the law by faith. No, he says, we uphold the law through faith, i.e. we fulfill it through faith."

"Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, "Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven." The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, "I believe." This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.

Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.

Now justice is just such a faith. It is called God's justice or that justice which is valid in God's sight, because it is God who gives it and reckons it as justice for the sake of Christ our Mediator. It influences a person to give to everyone what he owes him. Through faith a person becomes sinless and eager for God's commands. Thus he gives God the honor due him and pays him what he owes him. He serves people willingly with the means available to him. In this way he pays everyone his due. Neither nature nor free will nor our own powers can bring about such a justice, for even as no one can give himself faith, so too he cannot remove unbelief. How can he then take away even the smallest sin? Therefore everything which takes place outside faith or in unbelief is lie, hypocrisy and sin (Romans 14), no matter how smoothly it may seem to go."

I think that answers your original hypothesis.
 
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Yarddog

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A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?
I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.

Helping the poor can appear to be a good work on the surface but if the work is done for the wrong reasons, it is not a good work of faith and it proves the lack of faith.

Worship of God is a good work but scripture tells us of some who sit in the front of worship services to make the appearance of being holy. Their worship is, in reality, self worship.

We find our salvation through faith and that faith is shown through following Jesus Christ and not what we think following Jesus is. God has given us his Holy Spirit and those that walk in the Spirit will do the works which God has set before them.

God Bless
 
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Albion

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I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.

Helping the poor can appear to be a good work on the surface but if the work is done for the wrong reasons, it is not a good work of faith and it proves the lack of faith.

Worship of God is a good work but scripture tells us of some who sit in the front of worship services to make the appearance of being holy. Their worship is, in reality, self worship.

We find our salvation through faith and that faith is shown through following Jesus Christ and not what we think following Jesus is. God has given us his Holy Spirit and those that walk in the Spirit will do the works which God has set before them.

God Bless

It's certainly true that there are works that only appear to be good on th4e surface (even if someone is benefitted by them) and those that are really good for being done with the right intention. So, what ARE the particular good works that will save anyone? Stopping to help an injured stranger? OK. What about buying Girl Scout cookies or contributing to an "Animal rights" organization? Which works will be counted by God towards one's salvation??
 
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Yarddog

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So, what ARE the particular good works that will save anyone?
Whatever works God tells a person to do. Each person should search God's Holy Spirit to understand his will in their life and then seek to follow the path of salvation.
Stopping to help an injured stranger? OK. What about buying Girl Scout cookies or contributing to an "Animal rights" organization? Which works will be counted by God towards one's salvation??
I personally don't like to enumerate what God wills for his children. That gives the sense that following those things lead to salvation and that other things are not needed. That would be like the Jewish Law. God's will is so much deeper than that.
 
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Albion

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Whatever works God tells a person to do. Each person should search God's Holy Spirit to understand his will in their life and then seek to follow the path of salvation.


so....no one know what kinds of deeds matter, at least as they relate to earning salvation? That seems awfully vague when we're talking about a subject that is so critical. Just do what you think is good to do. :confused:


I personally don't like to enumerate what God wills for his children.
Is there someone who doesn't mind and has the answer?

That gives the sense that following those things lead to salvation and that other things are not needed.
Then we'll stipulate that this is not what we're discussing or suggesting.
 
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Yarddog

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so....no one know what kinds of deeds matter, at least as they relate to earning salvation? That seems awfully vague when we're talking about a subject that is so critical. Just do what you think is good to do. :confused:
It is not for me to tell you what God calls you to do. When we each face our judgment, we each cannot say that another told us to do this or that because we are supposed to trust God's will, not another person's. If we have faith, we will seek God's will for our own life and follow.

Is there someone who doesn't mind and has the answer?
The Holy Spirit. Scripture says that Jesus will take what his Father gives him and tell it to the Holy Spirit to give to us. If we don't know the Holy Spirit well enough to understand God's will for us, then we really need humble ourselves further and learn to walk in the Spirit.
 
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St_Worm2

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I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.

Helping the poor can appear to be a good work on the surface but if the work is done for the wrong reasons, it is not a good work of faith and it proves the lack of faith.

Worship of God is a good work but scripture tells us of some who sit in the front of worship services to make the appearance of being holy. Their worship is, in reality, self worship.

We find our salvation through faith and that faith is shown through following Jesus Christ and not what we think following Jesus is. God has given us his Holy Spirit and those that walk in the Spirit will do the works which God has set before them.

God Bless

Hey Dog, I'm happy to say that I concur with most of what you've written here (no real surprise), except for the part above that's underlined. If we are saved by "Grace" (unmerited favor), how can we also be saved by "works" (meritorious acts) .. :scratch:
As St. Paul points out:
"If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; OTHERWISE GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE." Romans 11:6
IOW, salvation is either by God's grace or it's by man's works, it cannot be by both (because these two are so essentially distinct from one another).

Perhaps Titus addresses this point most directly saying:
"He saved us ... according to His mercy" Titus 3:5
And just in case that's not perfectly clear, the Lord sandwiches this qualifying phrase within the words above:
"He saved us...NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS...but according to His mercy" Titus 3:5
So, since it is clear that works CAN NOT save us, and that INCLUDES the works that God has specifically called us to do ("deeds done in righteousness"), why are we bothering to talk about works in this way, as something (other than Grace) that can "lead to salvation" .. :confused:

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
 
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Albion

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It is not for me to tell you what God calls you to do.
All right then, if you don't know, who does?

The Holy Spirit. Scripture says that Jesus will take what his Father gives him and tell it to the Holy Spirit to give to us. If we don't know the Holy Spirit well enough to understand God's will for us, then we really need humble ourselves further and learn to walk in the Spirit.
We've already addressed this. What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.

The church may teach works-righteousness, but it has no idea what works or how many of them or of what kind? Yet a hundred other doctrines of much less critical nature are defined to the nth degree. The sweet generalizations about Holy Spirit's guidance aside, what kind of theological system asks us to face the future without any idea of what it takes to please God sufficiently for him to save us?

You don't have to answer the above. I am just summarizing now that you've made your responses...which I have appreciated.
 
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Yarddog

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All right then, if you don't know, who does?
The Holy Spirit. If you have this Spirit, you should be able to understand what God calls you to do.

We've already addressed this. What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.
Have you taken the time to get away from all else and just connect with God? When you do, there will be no hunch. When you allow the Holy Spirit to be your guide, you will change.

The church may teach works-righteousness, but it has no idea what works or how many of them or of what kind?
Love just as Jesus called you to love. When you are walking in the Spirit, you will be doing God's will without having to look at some list. Babes who are still drinking milk need to be told how to do righteous deeds.
 
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