Works Relation to Salvation

Aviel said:

And you can't do that by self effort.

You have to become that one., as "born again" "In Christ"... "ONE with God".

That is how you become PERFECT, like the "Father".

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I've never said I can. We must be born again but that doesn't mean we don't keep the commandments. What I don't understand is your position that we can be one with God and still rebel against His law. That's the impossibility.

Gary K said:

What I don't understand is your position that we can be one with God and still rebel against His law.

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Ive not posted the word "rebel" and i dont teach that we ignore the Commandments.....not any of the 10, or any of Jesus's.

But the line is drawn here..... Salvation is by Grace, not by Law or commandments.

So, commandment keeping is not a part of the CROSS of Christ, and that is where Salvation is found and given.

And, God does not save us under the New Covenant, so that we can go back under the old covenant and try to do it.

Aviel said:

Ive not posted the word "rebel" and i dont teach that we ignore the Commandments.....not any of the 10, or any of Jesus's.

But the line is drawn here..... Salvation is by Grace, not by Law or commandments.

So, commandment keeping is not a part of the CROSS of Christ, and that is where Salvation is found and given.

And, God does not save us under the New Covenant, so that we can go back under the old covenant and try to do it.

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Not keeping God's law is rebellion against Him. It's what Satan does. Jesus said he is a liar and the father of lies Plus he is a murderer.

Gary K said:

Not keeping God's law is rebellion against Him. It's what Satan does. Jesus said he is a liar and the father of lies Plus he is a murderer.

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Which is God's law?

The 613 that are found in the first 5 books of the OT?

Do you mean those?, or are you speaking about what God does inside the conscious and heart of the born again, when He writes a different sort, in their mind?

Aviel said:

Which is God's law?

The 613 that are found in the first 5 books of the OT?

Do you mean those?, or are you speaking about what God does inside the conscious and heart of the born again, when He writes a different sort, in their mind?

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The 613 laws were not even put together 3 years after Christ's death.


I think you need to reread the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What is the result of having the 10 commandments in our heart? That we will know God. This is an exact parallel to John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The result of having the 10 commandments written in our hearts is life eternal.

HIM said:

You are seriously misunderstanding Romans 7 and 8. What you are sharing is not true.

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You are misunderstanding what the new creation is all about. It is more than just adopting the Christian religion. It is a total transformation of the person to a totally new species of person. The people subject to the Mosaic Law before Pentecost were limited to their five senses in their observance, and were dependent on the once a year blood offering in the Temple holy of holies to ensure that their sins (failure to keep the Law) were covered. But the indwelling Holy Spirit caused a total transformation of the person so that he was a totally new creature. His old obligation to the Law became obsolete, because the total transformation that happened through conversion to Christ made outward observance to the Law unnecessary. The transformed new creature in Christ has the Law built in with the indwelling Holy Spirit and his transformed spirit and heart. He is now totally free to do what he really wants to do - live a holy life to the Lord - not through following the Tora laws, but through being led of the Holy Spirit.

Presbyterian Continuist said:

You are misunderstanding what the new creation is all about. It is more than just adopting the Christian religion. It is a total transformation of the person to a totally new species of person. The people subject to the Mosaic Law before Pentecost were limited to their five senses in their observance, and were dependent on the once a year blood offering in the Temple holy of holies to ensure that their sins (failure to keep the Law) were covered. But the indwelling Holy Spirit caused a total transformation of the person so that he was a totally new creature. His old obligation to the Law became obsolete, because the total transformation that happened through conversion to Christ made outward observance to the Law unnecessary. The transformed new creature in Christ has the Law built in with the indwelling Holy Spirit and his transformed spirit and heart. He is now totally free to do what he really wants to do - live a holy life to the Lord - not through following the Tora laws, but through being led of the Holy Spirit.

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Untrue.

You need to reread the NC and look at the results.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The results are an exact parallel to John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing God is life eternal according to Jesus. Therefore having the 10 commandments written in our hearts is eternal life for then we know God.

Gary K said:

Untrue.

You need to reread the NC and look at the results.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The results are an exact parallel to John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing God is life eternal according to Jesus. Therefore having the 10 commandments written in our hearts is eternal life for then we know God.

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Your Scripture reference is directed toward Israel, not the Christian Church. There is a doctrine that the Church replaced Israel, but it is untrue. The reference predicts that there will be a restoration in Israel in the last days, perhaps during the 1000 year millennial reign where Jesus will occupy the throne of David. The first stage of the restoration occurred when Israel became a nation in 1949.

The New Covenant is not with the house of Israel and Judah. It is between the Father and the glorified Jesus Christ, involving those who put their faith in Christ will be transformed to newness of life, become new creations in Christ, and receive eternal life.

The Jeremiah reference is descriptive, but not prescriptive for us. We, as Gentile believers, are not part of the house of Israel and Judah, therefore the reference does not describe the relationship between God and the Church. From the moment we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are immediately transformed to be new creations in Christ. Instead of a covenant between us and God like Israel, we "put on" the new man, making us totally different people to anyone who existed before the Day of Pentecost. This is why we are not subject to the Law of sin and death, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made us into totally transformed persons, with an enlivened spirit and a totally new heart.

Presbyterian Continuist said:

Your Scripture reference is directed toward Israel, not the Christian Church. There is a doctrine that the Church replaced Israel, but it is untrue. The reference predicts that there will be a restoration in Israel in the last days, perhaps during the 1000 year millennial reign where Jesus will occupy the throne of David. The first stage of the restoration occurred when Israel became a nation in 1949.

The New Covenant is not with the house of Israel and Judah. It is between the Father and the glorified Jesus Christ, involving those who put their faith in Christ will be transformed to newness of life, become new creations in Christ, and receive eternal life.

The Jeremiah reference is descriptive, but not prescriptive for us. We, as Gentile believers, are not part of the house of Israel and Judah, therefore the reference does not describe the relationship between God and the Church. From the moment we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are immediately transformed to be new creations in Christ. Instead of a covenant between us and God like Israel, we "put on" the new man, making us totally different people to anyone who existed before the Day of Pentecost. This is why we are not subject to the Law of sin and death, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made us into totally transformed persons, with an enlivened spirit and a totally new heart.

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I guess when you disagree with Jesus He's wrong as you know more about salvation than He does.

Bob S said:

Why then did Paul refer to the ten commandments as the "ministry of death"'?

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He didn’t

Gary K said:

I guess when you disagree with Jesus He's wrong as you know more about salvation than He does.

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Rubbish. You are cobbling together two separate verses to make the Bible say what you want it to say. The fact that you are misusing the Bible in this way shows that you don't have the spiritual discernment to know what the new creation really is. So, there is nothing more that I can add to this discussion.

Presbyterian Continuist said:

Rubbish. You are cobbling together two separate verses to make the Bible say what you want it to say. The fact that you are misusing the Bible in this way shows that you don't have the spiritual discernment to know what the new creation really is. So, there is nothing more that I can add to this discussion.

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Cobbling? Those verses say exactly the same thing. Knowing God is eternal life. Jesus is responsible inspiring the OT and His prayer for His disciples said exactly the same thing. Like I said, you seem to think you know more about salvation than He, God, knows.

Seems very arrogant to me.

Gary K said:

The 613 laws were not even put together 3 years after Christ's death.

613 commandments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think you need to reread the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What is the result of having the 10 commandments in our heart? That we will know God. This is an exact parallel to John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The result of having the 10 commandments written in our hearts is life eternal.

Click to expand...

Gary my friend,

Please don't get sucked into believing, excepting or justifying the insidious falsehood that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of those HE saved out of Egypt. There is not ONE Person, Ever, in the entire history of the Bible, that God placed 613 Laws on. This entire philosophy is a deception created by the prince of this world, to demean the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, and make Him into an unjust tyrant that first did mighty works to prove to Israel that HE was the God of Abraham their father, and after they trusted Him, and followed His out of Egypt, He placed a Yoke of Bondage, 613 Laws on them and commanded that they keep them all. And that HE lied to them, by telling them they were for their own good, and that they could obey them, and when they didn't obey 613 laws perfectly, God slaughtered them by the thousands. So then, inspired by the prince of this world, they created an image of the Christ, who is to save them, not from sin, but from God His Father, and the Yoke of Bondage of 613 Laws they preach God placed on their shoulders, that are impossible to obey.

Don't be deceived by them regarding this issue. Jesus walked in Every Law that God placed on a man, and HE called this Yoke, "Light" and not burdensome. If you do the work, and you study the Scriptures for yourself, you will find that the God "of the bible" never placed 613 Laws on the back of Jesus or "ANYONE" EVER, in the entire history of Scriptures. Not One Person, not ONE time. This insidious lie, AKA "Leaven", has infected "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and "many" have been snared by the prince of this world to promote it.

Don't be deceived by them Gary. The entire "613 Laws of God" doctrine is an old Jewish teaching, recording in the Talmud, not the Bible. It's not true. God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of even ONE person. Religious men, "who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ" use this ancient falsehood to promote and justify their rejection of God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. This lie is accepted as truth by, and is part of the very foundation of, mainstream Christianity.

But when you look at the so called "list", you can see how they deceptively use them to paint the God of Abraham in a bad light.

Presbyterian Continuist said:

Exactly. Paul said, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." We are set free from the obligation to keep the Law in any form.

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You are seriously misunderstanding Romans 7 and 8. What you are sharing is not true.

Presbyterian Continuist said:

You are misunderstanding what the new creation is all about. It is more than just adopting the Christian religion. It is a total transformation of the person to a totally new species of person. The people subject to the Mosaic Law before Pentecost were limited to their five senses in their observance, and were dependent on the once a year blood offering in the Temple holy of holies to ensure that their sins (failure to keep the Law) were covered. But the indwelling Holy Spirit caused a total transformation of the person so that he was a totally new creature. His old obligation to the Law became obsolete, because the total transformation that happened through conversion to Christ made outward observance to the Law unnecessary. The transformed new creature in Christ has the Law built in with the indwelling Holy Spirit and his transformed spirit and heart. He is now totally free to do what he really wants to do - live a holy life to the Lord - not through following the Tora laws, but through being led of the Holy Spirit.

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None of what you posted above addresses your misuse of what Paul said in Romans 8 when he said, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." A little leaven leavens the whole.

The law in the above phrase is not the law or a law found in the Book of the Law or of the decalogue. Most people don't understand these text so you are not alone. Please follow along.
Paul says that he does what he doesn't want to do because sin dwells in him in Rom 7:20. After saying this he says in context to it in verse 21, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

In other words not being able to control himself (ourselves) because of the indwelling sin is the law he found. This is brought out even further by the next two verses.

Paul says that he delights in the Law of God in relation to the good that he wants to do. But then he says he sees ANOTHER law in his members. This OTHER law that he says he found, the law that when he would do good evil is present with him. It is through this law he does what he would not, because of the sin that dwells in him. He as we can't help ourselves.

O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me (us) from this body of death that has sin dwelling in it?

Then because of the good that Paul wants to do He thanks God through Jesus Christ that he serves the Law of God with His mind. But there is a contrast in his flesh that he can not do what he would. He is in captivity, serving the law of sin in and with his flesh.

However there is therefore NOW no condemnation to us who are in Christ Jesus he continues in chapter 8. We who walk after the Spirit, His Spirit and not after the flesh, the sin that dwells in it. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin, the law that he found and is, the law that when we would do good evil is present with us. The law that we do what we would not, because of the sin that dwells in us and the result of it is death. For the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23) For what the law, the law of God that we serve with our minds could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh that had sin dwelling in it, God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law of God might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit of Christ Jesus whom we are in. And He in us that the world might believe.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. So say not in your heart, who shall bring Christ, through which we recieve the Word, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law in the heart down from above or up from the deep. But the righteousness of faith speaks this. The Word is in your heart and in your mouth that you can do it. That the righteousness of the Law, the Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Christ and not after the flesh, the sin that dwells in us. This is the word of faith in which we preach.



Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Studyman said:

Gary my friend,

Please don't get sucked into believing, excepting or justifying the insidious falsehood that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of those HE saved out of Egypt. There is not ONE Person, Ever, in the entire history of the Bible, that God placed 613 Laws on. This entire philosophy is a deception created by the prince of this world, to demean the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, and make Him into an unjust tyrant that first did mighty works to prove to Israel that HE was the God of Abraham their father, and after they trusted Him, and followed His out of Egypt, He placed a Yoke of Bondage, 613 Laws on them and commanded that they keep them all. And that HE lied to them, by telling them they were for their own good, and that they could obey them, and when they didn't obey 613 laws perfectly, God slaughtered them by the thousands. So then, inspired by the prince of this world, they created an image of the Christ, who is to save them, not from sin, but from God His Father, and the Yoke of Bondage of 613 Laws they preach God placed on their shoulders, that are impossible to obey.

Don't be deceived by them regarding this issue. Jesus walked in Every Law that God placed on a man, and HE called this Yoke, "Light" and not burdensome. If you do the work, and you study the Scriptures for yourself, you will find that the God "of the bible" never placed 613 Laws on the back of Jesus or "ANYONE" EVER, in the entire history of Scriptures. Not One Person, not ONE time. This insidious lie, AKA "Leaven", has infected "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and "many" have been snared by the prince of this world to promote it.

Don't be deceived by them Gary. The entire "613 Laws of God" doctrine is an old Jewish teaching, recording in the Talmud, not the Bible. It's not true. God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of even ONE person. Religious men, "who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ" use this ancient falsehood to promote and justify their rejection of God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. This lie is accepted as truth by, and is part of the very foundation of, mainstream Christianity.

But when you look at the so called "list", you can see how they deceptively use them to paint the God of Abraham in a bad light.

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I posted what I did to demonstrate how deceptive this all is. The law they like to quote didn't even exist in Jesus' or Paul's day.

HIM said:

He didn’t

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You do not have a clue, too bad.

Bob S said:

You do not have a clue, too bad.

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Clue me in then

Gary K said:

I posted what I did to demonstrate how deceptive this all is. The:law: they like to quote didn't even exist in Jesus' or Paul's day.

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Yes, or in Moses' day, or Abraham's Day. The whole "613 Law" doctrine is one of the most egregious doctrines created by man. I saw that you mentioned it didn't exist even in Jesus Time. I'm glad you are on to the religious scam. This week is Feast of Unleavened bread, so this particular Leaven is in the forefront of my mind. I'm especially conscious of this particular leaven, as it has led so many people astray.

I was studying the effects of how these deceptions leaven the whole person. And the different understanding the Scriptures take on, when a deception like this is exposed. One example is in Acts 15 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Because men believe that God placed an impossible burden, "613 Laws" on the necks of men, they perceive Peter to be talking about God's Laws, as opposed to the religious philosophies of the Pharisees and Jews they claimed were the Law of Moses.

Jesus once said the Truth shall set us free? Free from what? The Yoke of the Bondage of deception and sin.

Have a Good Sabbath Gary

Studyman said:

Yes, or in Moses' day, or Abraham's Day. The whole "613 Law" doctrine is one of the most egregious doctrines created by man.

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Amen

Gary K said:

As an SDA I have a very real assurance of salvation. I know my heavenly Father and His Son and that is eternal life. I don't believe you can have that kind of assurance as Jesus is our Creator and you're an evolutionist so you don't believe you you were created.

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So sorry you have to use disparaging judgment on others because you cannot stand to hear the real truth. I sense that there is not any love in your heart for those you chastise.

You may very well know that you are saved. I only wrote that the doctrine of the church teaches that one should never say they are saved.

By the way, knowing the Godhead does not save anyone. Believing Jesus is our Savior and loving others as He has taught us is the key to salvation. It is a personal relationship with Jesus and allowing His Spirit to guide us that gives us real assurance.