Works Relation to Salvation

Icyspark said:

Hi Leaf473,

Icy what you're saying, while not saying I'm in agreement.

Please continue.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

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Cool again

In Matthew 5 we learn that no part of the law will pass away until heaven and Earth pass away or all is accomplished.

Hebrews tells us that sacrifices have ceased, so at least some parts of the law have passed away.

If the law is a whole, indivisible, then if one part passes away, the whole passes away.

So that's the reasoning, at least my reasoning. Again, were you able to follow it?

And if you were able to follow it, would you like to pick a particular step and say whether you agree or disagree?

Aaron112 said:

It seems apparent publicly, that multitudes of unbelievers agree with this - it is one , perhaps main? , reason they do not turn to God ? God's Hand Is Not Short, that He cannot save/heal. So if they do turn to what is right and truth, He will not , He will not, He will not turn them away.

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This is certainly my Hope Aaron. As the Christ says;

Matt. 18: 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Leaf473 said:

Cool again

In Matthew 5 we learn that no part of the law will pass away until heaven and Earth pass away or all is accomplished.

Hebrews tells us that sacrifices have ceased, so at least some parts of the law have passed away.

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The Law and Prophets prophesy of a time when the Priesthood will change. Therefore, the change in the Priesthood is the fulfillment of that prophesy. The Law regarding the Priesthood didn't pass, it was fulfilled.

Leaf473 said:

If the law is a whole, indivisible, then if one part passes away, the whole passes away.

Click to expand...

Since God Prophesied of the time when the Priesthood would change, but not of a Time when His Law would pass, HE created the Division between the two. So the Priesthood changed as Prophesied, and became old and vanished, while the Law of God defining Righteousness, remained to be written on the hearts of His People.

This is why Jesus, God's Prophesied Priest, could walk in all the commandments, Statutes and Laws of God perfectly, and yet forgive sins without once having to Sprinkle the Blood of a goat or perform other "works of the Law" of the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron".

Leaf473 said:

So that's the reasoning, at least my reasoning. Again, were you able to follow it?

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The Pharisees also didn't believe there was a division between God's instruction in Righteousness, and the Laws of the Temporary Levitical Priesthood. Believing like many, that if a man didn't partake of the Sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification, this man was guilty of breaking the Whole Law.

Acts 13 speaks to this.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Not a Levite Priest, through animal sacrifice) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Why???

Heb. 10: 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So when a man accepts these undeniable biblical Truths, they too can see the Separation between obedience and sacrifice. As it is written;

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Studyman said:

The Law and Prophets prophesy of a time when the Priesthood will change. Therefore, the change in the Priesthood is the fulfillment of that prophesy. The Law regarding the Priesthood didn't pass, it was fulfilled.




Since God Prophesied of the time when the Priesthood would change, but not of a Time when His Law would pass, HE created the Division between the two. So the Priesthood changed as Prophesied, and became old and vanished, while the Law of God defining Righteousness, remained to be written on the hearts of His People.

This is why Jesus, God's Prophesied Priest, could walk in all the commandments, Statutes and Laws of God perfectly, and yet forgive sins without once having to Sprinkle the Blood of a goat or perform other "works of the Law" of the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron".




The Pharisees also didn't believe there was a division between God's instruction in Righteousness, and the Laws of the Temporary Levitical Priesthood. Believing like many, that if a man didn't partake of the Sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification, this man was guilty of breaking the Whole Law.

Acts 13 speaks to this.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Not a Levite Priest, through animal sacrifice) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Why???

Heb. 10: 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So when a man accepts these undeniable biblical Truths, they too can see the Separation between obedience and sacrifice. As it is written;

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

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Are you saying that the division in the law is:
The Law regarding the Priesthood
and
Every other law?

And that the Law of the priesthood it's not something we have to continue keeping, but we do have to keep every other law?

Leaf473 said:

Are you saying that the division in the law is:
The Law regarding the Priesthood
and
Every other law?

And that the Law of the priesthood it's not something we have to continue keeping, but we do have to keep every other law?

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I was simply pointing out that you and the Pharisees religious philosophy that there is no separation between the Priesthood law and God’s definition of sin, is a falsehood. And the conclusions adopted based on this foundation are also a deception.

But you are free to Yield Yourself a servant to obey whomever you want.

Leaf473 said:

Are you saying that the division in the law is:
The Law regarding the Priesthood
and
Every other law?

And that the Law of the priesthood it's not something we have to continue keeping, but we do have to keep every other law?

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Aaron112 said:

.... um, unauthorized interjection here: not every other law, but traffic laws like not running red lights and not driving on the wrong side of the road ,
and yield right of way at the proper times.... all important to protect lives somewhat, and to avoid monetary fines and points for tickets ....

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Well, every other law in "the law and the prophets"... What many people would call the law of Moses.

Studyman said:

I was simply pointing out that you and the Pharisees religious philosophy that there is no separation between the Priesthood law and God’s definition of sin, is a falsehood. And the conclusions adopted based on this foundation are also a deception.

But you are free to Yield Yourself a servant to obey whomever you want.

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That's cool. Did you want to relate it to the post here you had responded to recently, as far as what laws we keep today?

Leaf473 said:

Cool again

In Matthew 5 we learn that no part of the law will pass away until heaven and Earth pass away or all is accomplished.

Hebrews tells us that sacrifices have ceased, so at least some parts of the law have passed away.

If the law is a whole, indivisible, then if one part passes away, the whole passes away.

So that's the reasoning, at least my reasoning. Again, were you able to follow it?

And if you were able to follow it, would you like to pick a particular step and say whether you agree or disagree?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

It lacks a conclusion, the actual answer to the question: what is the law of Liberty?

It looks like you are saying that the perfect law is the word engrafted in us, and that engrafted word is the law of liberty.


What, then, are you saying is the engrafted word? Are you saying it's the entire law of Moses? The entire Bible? Just the Ten Commandments? Some other set of scripture passages?

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Here is the post again. The conclusion is highlighted this time.

James starts the chapter saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls. But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

HIM said:

Here is the post again. The conclusion is highlighted this time.

James starts the chapter saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls. But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

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Here's the chain of posts that I'm looking at:

SabbathBlessings said:

The law of liberty is the Ten Commandments as James quotes and contrasts exclusively from them. James 2:10-12.

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I responded with this general post

Leaf473 said:

I think the law of Liberty is
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Which has the corollary of
Don't show partiality.

I think that's what James is saying. If you feel like you're doing good keeping the whole law, but you show partiality in your church service, then you're actually guilty of the whole law.

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And that's the post of mine that you were responding to in this particular conversation that we are in.

So the conclusion, the answer that we are looking for, is to the question: What is the law of Liberty?

I see that you are saying that it is:

HIM said:

the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us.

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So... Is that the ten commandments only? Is it the entire law? The entire Bible? Some other set of instructions?

Or do you just want to leave it as "the engrafted law", which apparently is something different than the ten commandments or the entire law? (I say apparently because if it were the same as one of those you would just say so, I hope.)

Leaf473 said:

So the conclusion, the answer that we are looking for, is to the question: What is the law of Liberty?

Click to expand...

The answer is made clear in this:

James 2:10-13 KJV
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

And just to be more clear on that final statement:

James 2:13 HNV
13 For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Where is this torah-instruction taught?
The answer may be found here:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That is the Torah of the Master concerning the torah of liberty or freedom. The one who forgives men their trespasses shall be forgiven by the Father. The one who has shown no mercy shall receive judgment without mercy. So speak, and so do, (act accordingly), as one who will be judged by this torah-instruction of liberty.

It is also related to "love your neighbor as yourself", (Yakob-James 2:8), in that, if indeed you love your neighbor as yourself, then you should forgive his trespasses against you, just as you desire the Father to forgive your trespasses.

Leaf473 said:

Here's the chain of posts that I'm looking at:

I responded with this general post

And that's the post of mine that you were responding to in this particular conversation that we are in.

So the conclusion, the answer that we are looking for, is to the question: What is the law of Liberty?

I see that you are saying that it is:

So... Is that the ten commandments only? Is it the entire law? The entire Bible? Some other set of instructions?

Or do you just want to leave it as "the engrafted law", which apparently is something different than the ten commandments or the entire law? (I say apparently because if it were the same as one of those you would just say so, I hope.)

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The law of liberty is the fact the word is engrafted and made part of us. The fact that it has been made part of us has given us liberty. It actually reads in the Greek in chapter one"εἰς Into νόμον Law τέλειον Perfect, τὸν That τῆς of the ἐλευθερίας Freedom,"

We know that we are according to James to have a heart for the widow and fatherless and not have respect of persons due to status, It also says about fulfilling the Royal Law and alludes to the Ten Commandments and having mercy. All this is from the word, the book of the law and the Tablets. And in the mentioning, we are expected to be living the example because we will be judged by this that has been engrafted, made part of us, which is now The Law Perfect that of freedom because it has been made part of us. And because it is now part of us that is what we should see when we look in a mirror. So don't forget what manner of man we are now. That which is begotten of the word of truth, A first fruit of his and be a doer of this work, not a hearer only deceiving our own selves.

daq said:

The answer is made clear in this:

James 2:10-13 KJV
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

And just to be more clear on that final statement:

James 2:13 HNV
13 For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Where is this torah-instruction taught?
The answer may be found here:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That is the Torah of the Master concerning the torah of liberty or freedom. The one who forgives men their trespasses shall be forgiven by the Father. The one who has shown no mercy shall receive judgment without mercy. So speak, and so do, (act accordingly), as one who will be judged by this torah-instruction of liberty.

It is also related to "love your neighbor as yourself", (Yakob-James 2:8), in that, if indeed you love your neighbor as yourself, then you should forgive his trespasses against you, just as you desire the Father to forgive your trespasses.

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Sounds good, I think that's close to what I was saying

HIM said:

The law of liberty is the fact the word is engrafted and made part of us. The fact that it has been made part of us has given us liberty. It actually reads in the Greek in chapter one"εἰς Into νόμον Law τέλειον Perfect, τὸν That τῆς of the ἐλευθερίας Freedom,"

We know that we are according to James to have a heart for the widow and fatherless and not have respect of persons due to status, It also says about fulfilling the Royal Law and alludes to the Ten Commandments and having mercy. All this is from the word, the book of the law and the Tablets. And in the mentioning, we are expected to be living the example because we will be judged by this that has been engrafted, made part of us, which is now The Law Perfect that of freedom because it has been made part of us. And because it is now part of us that is what we should see when we look in a mirror. So don't forget what manner of man we are now. That which is begotten of the word of truth, A first fruit of his and be a doer of this work, not a hearer only deceiving our own selves.

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That sounds good, as well. The law of liberty, then, is God's word, all of it, engrafted in us

Studyman said:

Not obviously. "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do not obey the God of the Bible. And it wasn't the Jews, or Islam or Atheists or Buddhism that Jesus was most concerned about, at least according to HIM.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only ONE religion that fits His Description here. And it is compiled of dozens of differing religious businesses and sects, all promoting different doctrines, commandments and traditions. All claiming that the Christ lives in their hearts as their leader, teacher, guide, comforter, and source of correction.

The ONE thing they all have in common besides they all call Jesus Lord, Lord, and Come in His Name, is that their religious traditions cause those who follow them to Transgress God's Commandments. Although not comfortable, this is the reality of our world, and Jesus and Paul did warn us about it.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

So my friend, it is not "Obvious" that this world's religions who Call Jesus Lord, are hearing His Sayings, and then "Doing them". In fact, Jesus himself said "FEW" are on this path.



I posted Paul's very answer to this, why didn't you acknowledge it? Consider the Christ's Word in this very matter.

Ex. 23: 28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. 29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.

30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

A child learns how to walk. Jesus "Learned" obedience through the things HE suffered".

Psalms 119: 71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Is. 1: 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Matt. 11: 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matt. 9: 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Salvation of the God "of the Bible" is a "learned" way of life, a journey, a path that leads somewhere, that we are to walk, Jesus doesn't walk it for us. Jesus said to strive for the Path HE walked.

No it isn't. "Many" who come in Christ's Name preach that it is, but if one turns away from this world's religions and their philosophies, and considers "Every word" of God, they will find this is not truth.

And there is NO LAW of God against eating with Gentiles. And the Pharisees were not promoting God's commandments, nor God's Circumcision. As the Jesus "of the Bible" tells us, if we would only believe Him, the Pharisees rejected God's Commandments.

No, Paul is instructing the Body of Christ in what to "DO". If you were right, that Jesus comes in their hearts, and HE does everything for them, then there would be no "Yielding themselves" to obey anything. But that isn't what Paul teaches, that is what this world's religions teach.

This is why the Prophets, Jesus, Peter and Paul warns against listening and yielding themselves servants to obey religions or the men who promote them.

As Peter also teaches.

Acts 5: 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

How is it "fashioning our own righteousness" to deny our self and following the Christ "of the Bible"? Did Jesus not say "Now go and Sin no more"? Did HE not say "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Did HE not say "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Shall I turn from HIM, and follow the religious philosophy of this world?

Shall I become just another of many, Who professes that I know God; but in works I deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.?

You once said "We must always be open to the possibility that our views are contrary to what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us."

I posted Paul's own words regarding his journey to perfection. I posted Paul's instruction to the Body of Christ regarding to whom they should "Yield themselves" servants to obey. I posted Paul's own Words on how the Body of Christ becomes "Servants of God's Righteousness" thus fulfilling the instruction I posted from John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But all these scriptures, and pretty much the entire Law and Prophets, are contrary to what you are promoting. To the point that you imply here, that if I trust the Jesus "of the Bible" and His Father, the One True God that this same Jesus said to know was Eternal Life, that I am placing myself under a self-imposed curse.

So in essence, you are trying to convince me that God is lying to me, and Jesus doesn't know what HE is talking about. And much of Paul's teaching is false. And that rejecting all these Words of God and more, doesn't mean anything. Basically saying to me that "I shall surely not die" if I reject this God and follow the other religious voice in the garden God placed me in. Just as the Mainstream Preachers of Jerusalem in Paul's Time, told the Galatians, No Galatians, you need to adopt and promote our religious voice.

All I'm saying is what if Jesus is right? What if God is Right? What if Paul is right?

And it is the religious businesses and sects of this world that the Prophets, Jesus and His Apostles warned about, that are deceived? And not the Author of the Bible.

It seems prudent to consider these things, as Paul also teaches.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

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Humility is certainly in order.



These verses deserve close scrutiny. They contrast the blessing of receiving the Spirit of God through faith with the curse of attempting to earn right standing with God through obedience to His laws.

B Griffin said:

Humility is certainly in order.

​

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

(Ga 3:10–14)​

These verses deserve close scrutiny. They contrast the blessing of receiving the Spirit of God through faith with the curse of attempting to earn right standing with God through obedience to His laws.

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That scripture does not mean that those who love God and His law and obey it by faith are cursed if they fail of keeping it perfectly. There is a huge difference between that and attempting to obey it because a person thinks they can earn salvation by doing so.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

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Notice that the fruit of the Spirit includes love and faith.

Matthew 22:
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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Romans 11: 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

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B Griffin said:

Humility is certainly in order.

​

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

(Ga 3:10–14)​

These verses deserve close scrutiny. They contrast the blessing of receiving the Spirit of God through faith with the curse of attempting to earn right standing with God through obedience to His laws.

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It does indeed deserve close scrutiny. What "LAW" was the Pharisees promoting for "Justification"? In other words, in the Law and Prophets, when a man sinned, what did Moses tell this man to do before his sin could be forgiven?

It would be great if you would post Moses own words which answer this question. Is this LAW a "Law of Works" as Paul asked in Romans 3? Or a LAW of Faith?

It is written that the Jesus of the Bible, never sinned. It would be great if you would answer another question. Did Jesus promote these same "works of the Law" in order to be forgiven? Or did HE promote a LAW in which HE, apart from these sacrificial "works", for gave sins?

I think it's great that you understand the importance of close scrutiny of what Paul is teaching. We wouldn't want to be enticed into adopting a religion which promote doctrines and traditions of men, that cause us to Transgress God's commandments, like the mainstream religion of Jesus' Time did. Even if they do "Come in Christ's Name".

Gary K said:

That scripture does not mean that those who love God and His law and obey it by faith are cursed if they fail of keeping it perfectly. There is a huge difference between that and attempting to obey it because a person thinks they can earn salvation by doing so.



Notice that the fruit of the Spirit includes love and faith.

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Hey Gary, you're back!

Leaf473 said:

Hey Gary, you're back!

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That I am.

B Griffin said:

Sorry, I keep on making the same mistake. I assumed, obviously in error, that everyone can make the connection between Romans 8:7-8 (which describes depravity of the fleshly mind and the imposibility of those who are "in the flesh" to please God) and Romans 8:9-10 (which clearly defines who is and isn't "in the flesh" and explains that those who are not "in the flesh" have a dead body because of its sin and a living spirit because of its righteousness).

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Yes, sadly people seem to not reconcile these scriptures and while it sounds good that we can choose what it means to walk in Christ instead of following the scriptures, but its always best to allow the scriptures to interpret itself.

This seems to be a verse that is overlooked a lot...

Romans 7:7 Because the carnal mind (sinful) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The conclusion is walking in His Spirit is in harmony with keeping His commandments, and in doing so there is no condemnation. I mean how can anyone argue with Jesus in His very own Words John 14:15 Exo 20:6

As I have stated a few times, God's commandments just make us aware of sin as Paul previously stated...

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What is the condemnation of sin? It is death Romans 6:23. What this passage in Romans 8 is telling us there is no condemnation if we are not sinning (not an enmity or hostile against God's law ) because we have been transformed by Jesus living in His Spirit, overcome through Him and being obedient to Him, not because we have to because we want to through love and faith Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Exo 20:6. If we find ourselves hostile to God's law, that's not a good sign the law just shows us we are sinners and our need for Jesus who gives us the solution to the sin problem. The law is not the problem, the law is holy and righteous Psa 119:172 Romans 7:12 NIV sin is the issue and what we do with the problem (sin, not the law) depends on who we serve. Our obedience to God leads to righteousness, our obedience to sin leads to death

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

B Griffin said:

In all of this, you still didn't answer my question:

"Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives?"​

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Of course I see this, but many want to use their version of what sin is instead of God's. Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 and the law that points out sin is the 10 commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 God's holy law and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30. God's righteousness (right doing) is through His commandments Psa 119:172 and what too many people do is depend on their version of righteousness instead of God's but this is really just another deceitful doctrine that we can sanctity ourselves, but we can't, we need to depend on God and His righteousness.

B Griffin said:

​

If you can't see this, then you will never understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18)."

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Do you think Jesus has enough power to keep us from sin? I asked this before but never really received a response. Do you think we can walk in Christ and be sinning and thats serving and loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul?

Not according to Jesus very own Words... Jesus in His own Words says He doesn't know us if we do not do the will of God and practice lawlessness

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

How are we known to Christ?

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Love to Him we should want to keep His commandments. Receiving His Spirit is conditional.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If we are keeping His commandments, we are not sinning. Jesus doesn't make us do it alone either, but it requires our cooperation.

B Griffin said:

So, your view of "obedience" is a perpetual cycle of sin, guilt, repentance, and forgiveness. And you see this as evidence of "being in Christ"?

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You seem to be arguing with the very Words of Jesus. What is your solution to the sin problem when someone slips and falls, not repent- to live in perpetual sin where we are told there remains no more sacrifice for sin Hebrews 10:26-30 does not seem like a good solution. Jesus became our Sacrifice for sin, but not only for sin, when we turn from sin and repent, but turn to Him for sanctification and through His power we can overcome sin. You seem to not believe this for some reason, but its a promise of scripture


Mat 4:4 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mat 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

When we have a heavy and humble heart knowing our sin hurts our Savior and sin separates us from God Jesus Sacrificed Himself so we can turn to Him and have confidence in His promise that He can cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And our faithfulness and obedience to His commandments will lead us to reconciliation

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God does have a people who overcome....

Rev 22:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

B Griffin said:

It is more likely evidence of the curse of the law (Gal 3:13)

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The curse of the law is not continuing in obedience- the wages of sin is death - we are told this over and over again in scripture. The law is not a curse, but deviating off the path of God's righteousness is.

B Griffin said:

doing its work (Gal 3:22-25) -- convicting you of sin and condemnation and driving you to Jesus for forgiveness. This is what happens when a person in whom Christ lives seeks rightness with God through obedience to the law instead of accepting the righteousness that is ours in Christ by grace through faith (verse references available upon request).

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So let me try to understand you, we do not need to obey God's law and Christ will accept us through faith and faith means we can worship other gods, vain God's holy name covet and steal
or
should we follow what the scripture tells us that faith upholds the law Romans 3:31 and grace is not a license to sin (break God's law) Certainly Not!! according to Paul Romans 6:1-2 but living in faith and grace actually means being obedient to God's law.

B Griffin said:

If you have the Spirit, you also have the flesh. You cannot train the flesh to be good by submittin it to God's laws because "These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23) But you can deny the flesh what it wants by walking in lock step with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). If you take every step as the Spirit directs (i.e., you are being led by the Spirit per Gal 5:18), then you are not under the law.

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I am sorry you seem to have such a low opinion of God's law and His righteousness. According to scripture God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7 so whoever is telling you that we should not submit to God's law is teaching you away from the scripture away from reconciliation with God Rev 22:14-15

You seem to misunderstand what it means to not be under the law. What it does not mean is that we can just choose to bypass it and depend on our own version of righteousness and be saved. These scriptures Rev 22:14-15 1 John 2:1-6 Mat 7:21-23 Hebrews 10:26-30 answers this plainly. If you go back to Romans 8:1-8 there is no condemnation if one is walking in Christ walking in the Spirit and not walking in the flesh (sin) those walking in the flesh is an enmity against God and His law Romans 8:7 but there is no condemnation is we keep God's law though love and faith. 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31. The Spirit is given to those who obey Acts 5:32

B Griffin said:

I would note that this does not produce righteousness because we have the new man, created by God, according to God, with "true rightteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). And if we "put on the new man" (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) with it's inherrent righteousenss and holiness and walk in lock step with the Spirit of Christ who is in us, who we are one with in the new man, and who is the source of our righteousness, then we fulfill the call to godly living that is so prevelant throughout Scripture. This is what it is described in Romans 7:6, "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

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We can't become a new creation if we are walking in the flesh (sin) and there is no condemnation if we are obeying God and keeping His commandments through love and faith which Paul says keeping the commandments of God, is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 its the whole duty of man. Ecc 12:13

Icyspark said:

For a number of people there seems to be some confusion as to why they should observe the Sabbath. Aside from the fact that its part of the Ten Commandment covenant in which the command itself says we are to "Remember the Sabbath day"; Aside from the fact that the Sabbath provides all humans with a day of physical rest; Aside from the fact that each Sabbath is to be observed in honor of Jesus creating the heavens and the Earth; Aside from the fact that God says we're to call the Sabbath a delight; Aside from the fact that Jesus said that the Sabbath was "made for human beings"; Aside from the fact that Jesus, the apostles, Paul and Gentiles all observed the Sabbath; I guess there's really no reason at all ::shrugs::

But let's set all of that aside and consider what Jesus says about salvation:

Matthew 5:27-30​

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

• Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandment covenant: "You shall not commit adultery."
• Jesus magnifies the law and equates adultery with looking lustfully at a woman.
• Jesus says it is better to pluck out your eye rather than to be guilty of adultery.
• Jesus says it is better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Translation: LOSS OF SALVATION)

The act of adultery (or murder, or theft, or +7) is not what denies salvation. It merely reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love. God says, "Those that honor Me, I will honor." Do you know where that quote is found in the Bible? Go look it up sometime. It's very enlightening.

So, what do you think? According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?

For those of you who are inclined to reject, deny or abolish the words of Jesus I suggest you take the following text into account:

Mark 8:38​

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”​

And also these verses:

Luke 6:46-49​

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”​

And this passage:

John 12:47-50​

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”​

But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief? Let's see:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ​

Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.]Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! One of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist? Probably not, but could it be that if you've ever used that legalist term against someone I'm surmising you probably weren't applying it consistently. If you were I'd bet that Paul wouldn't pass your muster.

Again, works don't earn our salvation--works merely validate our claim that we love Jesus.

Paul says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" Your works reveal whether your faith is real.

James very succinctly explains that faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). If you claim you love Jesus, yet don't do what He says, then your faith is dead.

John 14:15-21 records Jesus saying the following:

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”​

Conversely, what about those who do not love Jesus? In verse 24 Jesus says, "Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me."

It's amazing how many of the critics of Adventism have attempted to redact all of the commands of Jesus down to two commands which apparently they believe are open to interpretation. Love for your neighbor is not nebulous and left undefined. Jesus provided explicit commands in His Ten Commandment covenant which define how we are to love our neighbor. The covenant/agreement was canceled, but it was canceled based on the failure of the people to keep their end of the agreement. What they agreed to (ie. the law) was obviously not the problem. "God found fault with the people," not with His perfect law.

• Since most critics believe there is no law then they have no need to "stop sinning," as Jesus, Peter, John and Paul all admonish Christians;
• Since formers have no law to identify sin, then they are sinless;
• Since they are "sinless," they have no need for grace;
• Since they have no need for grace, then they have no need for forgiveness;
• Since they have no need for forgiveness, then they have no need for a Savior;
• Since they have no need for a Savior, then they have no need for Jesus;
• If they have no need for Jesus, then we see who's truly in a cult. A religion without Jesus is empty and devoid of any eternal value.

Let's review what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

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I see nothing that would warrant me to condemn you; I do disagree with you.

In your review you quote Jesus twice and Paul thrice; is Paul greater than Jesus? But wait there is more, when you say, Paul says, you plagiarize Jesus's words to boot.

I do not believe our graceful God issues unwarranted Favour, he gives stripes for sin and reward for repentance. For them who do not sin, they receive reward for forgiving others who sin, (upon repentance).