Works Relation to Salvation

guevaraj · Oct 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Brother, the eleven commandments is not a biblical teaching, just the 9 commandments. God gave Ten Commandments Exo 34:28, Deut 4:13 and adding to God's Word, is not a good idea.

Sister, human beings have said Jesus replaced His Ten Commandments with an Eleventh Commandment when Jesus asks us to obey "all" His Eleven Commandments in the following passage. The following passage tells us that Jesus has given us an Eleventh Commandment with the phrase "one thing" that you have not done, after answering the question with: you know "the commandments"! Jesus' answer makes the "one thing" you haven't done an additional commandment. Consistent with us knowing the additional commandment in the new covenant of following Jesus' example, as Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

SabbathBlessings · Oct 25, 2023

guevaraj said:
Sister, human beings have said Jesus replaced His Ten Commandments with an Eleventh Commandment when Jesus asks us to obey "all" His Eleven Commandments in the following passage. The following passage tells us that Jesus has given us an Eleventh Commandment with the phrase "one thing" that you have not done, after answering the question with: you know "the commandments"! Jesus' answer makes the "one thing" you haven't done an additional commandment. Consistent with us knowing the additional commandment in the new covenant of following Jesus' example, as Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The Ten Commandments is based on love and adding what is not there is altering His Word, Jesus never mentioned 11 commandments, you are adding that and its no different than trying to take away or editing a commandment to accommodate human desires. Trust God, He knows what He is doing and doesn't need our help.

BNR32FAN · Oct 25, 2023

daq said:
I've read this discussion back several pages just to see what it was actually about. I've never seen any English translation that accurately reflects what the Hebrew text actually says, (PS: corrected below after I remembered the SLT during this post). What is rendered from is actually dei or day, (dahee), with the mem prefix, (a preposition that with the mem prefix would be something like middei), and dei can also mean "according to", (and it is sometimes not easy to understand in certain contexts).

The first portion:

וְהָיָה מִֽדֵּי־חֹדֶשׁ בְּחָדְשֹׁו וּמִדֵּי שַׁבָּת בְּשַׁבַּתֹּו

My (tentative-current) reading:

And it shall come to pass that according to a Hodesh in its Hodesh, and according to a Shabbat in its Shabbat ...

In other words what the Prophet is actually saying is that most do not even know the proper times concerning these things: the emphasis is on the timing and worshiping according to the proper set times. Moreover this statement derives from the Torah, specifically Numbers 28:10-14 which uses the same phrases/constructs. Numbers 28:10 concerns the Shabbat, and I have found one translation which renders it close enough in this case, the YLT, (Young's Literal Translation), but for some reason Young did not render the same phrase the same way in the Isaiah passage.

Numbers 28:10 WLC
עֹלַת שַׁבַּת בְּשַׁבַּתֹּו עַל־עֹלַת הַתָּמִיד וְנִסְכָּֽהּ׃ ס

Numbers 28:10 YLT
10 the burnt-offering of the sabbath in its sabbath, besides the continual burnt-offering and its libation.

But the article is not attached, so it should read, the ascending offering of a Shabbat in its Shabbat ...

Numbers 28:14 then says the ascending offering of a Hodesh in its Hodesh (for the Hodeshei (months) of the year). However in this case, strangely, the YLT switches to read "the burnt-offering of every month for the months of the year".

Addendum: I just remembered an obscure translation called the SLT and it has both correct except for the article:

Numbers 28:10 SLT
10 A burnt-offering of the Sabbath in its Sabbath, upon the burnt-offering of continuance, and its libation.

Numbers 28:14 SLT
14 And their libations shall be half of the hin for the bullock, and the third of the hin for the ram; and the fourth of the hin of wine for the lamb: this the burnt-offering of the month in its month, for the months of the year.

And what a nice surprise:

Isaiah 66:23 SLT
23 And it was as often as the new moon in its new moon, and as often as the Sabbath in its Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says Jehovah.

Notice that for middei this translation renders "as often as", (again, it is not always easy to understand an author's intent when this word is used).

If you’ve done this much study on the prefix “day” then surely you would agree that it also can mean “from” as it is used in these verses. 1 Samuel 7:16 2 Chronicles 24:5 and Zechariah 14:16. Furthermore the word is translated to “ek” G1537 in the Septuagint which means out of, from, by, away from. So it would appear that the Jews 250 years before Christ’s ministry reached a consensus that the usage of “day” in Isaiah 66:23 meant “from” since that’s how they translated it to the Greek language in the Septuagint.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Oct 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Who said I habitually sin? Do you believe that the devil is more powerful to keep us in sin than Jesus is to keep us from sin? In this belief it means the devil is more powerful than Jesus, which is not something I prescribe to. What is not possible on our own, all things are possible in Christ including obedience to Him. He doesn't make us do it on our own too, but it requires our cooperation.

If we stumble and fall, we have a High Priest we come to for forgiveness of sin, when we repent . True repentance means there is a change in direction.

I did. I don't know you personally, but I know what's in man. Sin is a habit common to all. And I know, without ever meeting you, that your "true repentance" that resulted in "a change in direction" did not result in the cessation of sin, and as a result, you cannot claim that you no longer need forgiveness of your sins.

I heard a famous preacher say he could go as many as three days in a row without sinning. I think he was confused about what constitutes sin. But even if he was right, sinning one time every three days still makes a person a habitual sinner. So, to say that right standing with God is dependent on obeying His laws is to say that right standing with God is unavailable to mankind. And, if you say forgiveness restores a disobedient person to right standing with God, then you are saying that right standing with God is through forgiveness, and you are admitting that right standing with God is not available through obedience.

Why then, do you all insist that obedience to the law is the path to right standing with God when it is obvious that you embrace forgiveness as your personal escape for your failures to obey?

NewLifeInChristJesus · Oct 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
People sacrificed animals daily, because people sinned daily. Now we have a High Priest we can go to when we stumble and fall. What is not forgiven is the sins we cover Pro 28:13 when we sin and no longer try to overcome through Jesus Christ, there remains no more sacrifice Heb 10:26-30 God's law just shows us our sin, so we do not depend on our own righteousness but depend on God's Psa 119:172 and His law reflects His character, which we need to become. No one said it was easy, but through Christ all things are possible. Philippians 4:13

Jesus said it was easy. Legalism makes it impossibly hard. That's my point.

daq · Oct 25, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
If you’ve done this much study on the prefix “day” then surely you would agree that it also can mean “from” as it is used in these verses. 1 Samuel 7:16 2 Chronicles 24:5 and Zechariah 14:16. Furthermore the word is translated to “ek” G1537 in the Septuagint which means out of, from, by, away from. So it would appear that the Jews 250 years before Christ’s ministry reached a consensus that the usage of “day” in Isaiah 66:23 meant “from” since that’s how they translated it to the Greek language in the Septuagint.

Problem is that it does not make sense with what follows. For example, where the text says a month in its month, what sense does it make to render it as "from a month in its month"? Or with the second phrase, a Shabbat in its Shabbat, that also doesn't make any sense if you render it word for word, "from a Shabbat in its Shabbat".

And when you put the whole thing together it makes no sense at all:

And it shall come to pass that from a month in its month, and from a Shabbat in its Shabbat, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the LORD.

Perhaps that is why not many translations render it for what it actually says.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 25, 2023

B Griffin said:
Jesus said it was easy. Legalism makes it impossibly hard. That's my point.

Obeying God is not legalism. Sad this is even a teaching. Obeying God is through faith and love Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15, Exo 20:6

SabbathBlessings · Oct 25, 2023

B Griffin said:
I did. I don't know you personally, but I know what's in man. Sin is a habit common to all. And I know, without ever meeting you, that your "true repentance" that resulted in "a change in direction" did not result in the cessation of sin, and as a result, you cannot claim that you no longer need forgiveness of your sins.

I would be careful and leave the judging to God. He is the only one all knowing. I understand you think the devil is more powerful to keep us in sin, than Jesus is to keep us from sin, its just not something I believe. We are shown an example of this in Hebrews 11 Scripture shows God has a people who overcomes Rev 14:12 and again what we can't do on our own, we can through Christ. I trust the promises of scripture.

B Griffin said:
I heard a famous preacher say he could go as many as three days in a row without sinning. I think he was confused about what constitutes sin. But even if he was right, sinning one time every three days still makes a person a habitual sinner. So, to say that right standing with God is dependent on obeying His laws is to say that right standing with God is unavailable to mankind. And, if you say forgiveness restores a disobedient person to right standing with God, then you are saying that right standing with God is through forgiveness, and you are admitting that right standing with God is not available through obedience.

Why then, do you all insist that obedience to the law is the path to right standing with God when it is obvious that you embrace forgiveness as your personal escape for your failures to obey?

I think you greatly misunderstand God's grace and love and faith to God. A righteous man will always get back up when he falls, an unrighteous man will learn to live with sin. Thats the difference.

Take care.

Leaf473 · Oct 25, 2023

daq said:
It depends on when the year starts because every month is equal, thirty days, (not counting intercalation days), but beyond that, it can hardly be explained here because there are surely too many calendar rules for people who do not need written rules.

Well, does the first month start on the first day of the year?

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 12:2 - New American Standard Bible

“This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you.

www.biblegateway.com

NewLifeInChristJesus · Oct 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Obeying God is not legalism. Sad this is even a teaching. Obeying God is through faith and love Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15, Exo 20:6

Obedience would be a path to right standing with God if you could do it. But you can't. But I don't need to tell you this because you already know it. That's why you cling to forgiveness when you fail. And since all sin is unrighteousness and lawlesness, continuing to sin after one repents of sin simply means that you continue to need God's grace even after you repeatedly repent. And to claim that anything other than His forgiveness put you in right standing with Him is to lie against the truth.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Oct 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
I would be careful and leave the judging to God. He is the only one all knowing. I understand you think the devil is more powerful to keep us in sin, than Jesus is to keep us from sin, its just not something I believe. We are showed an example of this in Hebrews 11 Scripture shows God has a people who overcomes Rev 14:12 and again what we can't do on our own, we can through Christ. I trust the promises of scripture.

I think you greatly misunderstand God's grace and love and faith to God. A righteous man will always get back up when he falls, an unrighteous man will learn to live with sin. Thats the difference.

Take care.

I am not judging. I am simply saying that we are all sinners in need of a Savior. If rightness with God through obedience to the law, or if God could have written a law that obeying it could have made us right with Him, then He would not have sacrificed His Son for our sins. So, if a person finds himself right with God on his knees at the feet of Jesus after receiving His forgiveness, he should stay there and not get up to yoke himself back to the law which drove him to his knees for breaking it.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 25, 2023

B Griffin said:
Obedience would be a path to right standing with God if you could do it. But you can't. But I don't need to tell you this because you already know it. That's why you cling to forgiveness when you fail. And since all sin is unrighteousness and lawlesness, continuing to sin after one repents of sin simply means that you continue to need God's grace even after you repeatedly repent. And to claim that anything other than His forgiveness put you in right standing with Him is to lie against the truth.

Obedience leads to righteousness, sin leads to death, the path we choose is our own....

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Seems you are underestimating many of the teachings of God's Word John 14:15-18, Mat 15:3-9 Mat 19:17-19 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Rev 14:15, Rev 22:14-15 1 Cor 7:19 James 2:10-12 and so many others.

All of us have sinned and no one is made righteous by obeying God's law, which means we can save ourselves, only Jesus can save through faith. We do not obey God's law to become righteous, we obey through love and faith which leads to righteousness. There is no scripture that says we can willfully sin and live. Jesus said this in His very own Words Mat 7:21-23. If we find ourselves breaking God's law, its always best to confess and repent, which Jesus promises to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and through Jesus He can help us obey Him John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate. When I pray I always ask for more love and faith to Him and help me overcome my sins. I trust Jesus at His Word that all things are possible, including overcoming sin with the help of Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us its possible, Rev 14:12, we should trust God's Word and not make our devil bigger than our God.

You're free to believe we can live in unrepented sin and be saved, but its just not biblical. Heb 10:26-30 Rev 22:14-15, Mat 7:21-23

Leaf473 · Oct 25, 2023

Icyspark said:
Hi SabbathBlessings,

Nice seeing you!

What I encounter is a regular shifting of the goal line. When I show the obvious fallacy of a position then they ignore their previous contention and manufacture another unbiblical excuse for their rejection of the God they claim to love. By outward appearances it seems to invalidate their claim because Jesus says love is manifested in obedience and obedience is not left nebulous and undefined. Love for God and for our neighbor is defined in the law which apparently to certain ppl is faulty and needed to come to an end.

Icyspark said:
Weird, huh?

If you're seriously interested in understanding, I'll be glad to try to explain... At least my reasoning

Icyspark said:
God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

SabbathBlessings · Oct 25, 2023

B Griffin said:
I am simply saying that we are all sinners in need of a Savior.

Never said anything different. The difference is, you seem to believe we do not need to repent for our sins when falling and that its impossible to overcome. This is what Jesus taught...Matthew 4:17 Salvation is from sin Mat 1:21

B Griffin said:
If rightness with God through obedience to the law, or if God could have written a law that obeying it could have made us right with Him,

I'm not sure if you are reading my posts, but our righteous is not through God's law, even though they are righteous Psa 119:172 Romans 7:12 NIV We obey God's law though love and faith which leads to righteousness. All God's law does is shows us our sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 and our need for Jesus for His forgiveness and grace when we go to Him earnestly pray for forgiveness of our sins and ask Jesus for a new heart that will obey Him through love and faith. Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6

B Griffin said:
then He would not have sacrificed His Son for our sins.

If we can sin freely, then there would have been no need for Jesus great sacrifice and His sacrifice would be in vain.

B Griffin said:
So, if a person finds himself right with God on his knees at the feet of Jesus after receiving His forgiveness, he should stay there and not get up to yoke himself back to the law which drove him to his knees for breaking it.

You seem to miss the point, that we can disobey God and sin and be saved, and there is no biblical teaching for this. I believe through Jesus we can overcome. Scripture tells us its possible, even though we all have sinned, we can overcome just like David, Moses, Abraham and so forth shown in Hebrews 11. God would not ask us to do something that is impossible to do. John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and even gives us His Spirit so we don't have to do it alone John 14:15-18, we just need to cooperate. If we stumble along the way, His blood covers us when we earnestly confess and repent. Living in sin is not what is going to reconcile us back to God Rev 22:14-15

BNR32FAN · Oct 25, 2023

daq said:
Problem is that it does not make sense with what follows. For example, where the text says a month in its month, what sense does it make to render it as "from a month in its month"? Or with the second phrase, a Shabbat in its Shabbat, that also doesn't make any sense if you render it word for word, "from a Shabbat in its Shabbat".

And when you put the whole thing together it makes no sense at all:

And it shall come to pass that from a month in its month, and from a Shabbat in its Shabbat, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the LORD.

Perhaps that is why not many translations render it for what it actually says.

Which is why nobody translates it that way. Personally I have more confidence in the ancient Jewish translators from 250 BC than a 19th century English woman when it comes to translating the Hebrew language since they actually spoke and wrote in Hebrew on a daily basis.

Icyspark · Oct 25, 2023

Leaf473 said:
If you're seriously interested in understanding, I'll be glad to try to explain... At least my reasoning

Hi Leaf473,

Sure, I'm always interested in understanding!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Leaf473 · Oct 25, 2023

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

Sure, I'm always interested in understanding!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Cool

Well, at least from my point of view, I don't know of anyone here who says, "God said x, but I'm going to do y." Rather, it's more like, "God said x, but he didn't say it to me (or us)."

Some examples would be to build an ark, or buy a sword.

So the question as far as the Sabbath and the Law is concerned, is: Out of all the instructions in the Old Testament, which ones are for us?

Does that makes sense so far? I'm not asking you to agree with it, just asking if it makes sense.

daq · Oct 25, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well, does the first month start on the first day of the year?

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 12:2 - New American Standard Bible

“This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you.

www.biblegateway.com

Of course, what I meant was that it is not the same date on the Gregorian calendar every year: and since that's the most likely calendar you observe, I cannot just give you a date on the Gregorian calendar and it be correct every year.

Leaf473 · Oct 26, 2023

daq said:
Of course, what I meant was that it is not the same date on the Gregorian calendar every year: and since that's the most likely calendar you observe, I cannot just give you a date on the Gregorian calendar and it be correct every year.

That's fine. How is the first day of the year calculated?

daq · Oct 26, 2023

Leaf473 said:
That's fine. How is the first day of the year calculated?

Lol, persistence, (nothing wrong with that). Well, for starters, with a very simple horizontal sundial, and with that you can find geographic north within a few days and perfect the placement of the sundial, (by shadow plotting). Then you will be able to count days and the astronomical equinoxes will shadow plot as a nearly perfect straight line from due west to due east, especially when the astronomical equinox occurs during the daytime.

In a matter of very few years the antediluvian patriarchs would have known that the earth was spinning and they would have known the length of the solar tropical year to at least within a day. They didn't need computers or calculators. Obviously then the year will likely be set to start from some time around either one of the equinoxes or one of the solstices. It probably was not the same in Egypt, (possibly around summer solstice in Egypt, which in ancient times was about a month before the Nile would begin to flood), and that's likely why the Most High tells Mosheh when the new year is to commence for Yisrael in Exodus 12:2, (Mosheh was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, Acts 7:22, (which no doubt included a knowledge and understanding of the Great Pyramid)).

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