Works... Performance based salvation and Faith based salvation...

[ToBeLoved]

Whatever, dude.

You choose not to talk about it. I get it.

I hope you think about it further some time. Be blessed.

 

[NeedyFollower]

You choose not to talk about it. I get it.

I hope you think about it further some time. Be blessed.

Hello thecolorsblend and ToBeLoved ....the proverb just came to my mind about entering into an argument that did not belong to me ...meddling with strife , etc. so I hope that is not what I am doing here. I agree with both of you as this is something with which I struggle. ( Judging, restoring, etc. ) I wonder if "judgement" is akin to condemning verses instruction. In other words , it would be a physician damning someone for their illness verses saying , " Oh my , they are going to perish unless God gives me the grace to bring them to the great physician. These are hard things to discern but I guess we need to be careful not " bite and devour one another" as our brother Paul says ... I don't know that it hurts me to "try " something on and see if it fits. If it does, then praise God that someone loved me enough to show me. David says, let the righteous smite me, I will consider it a kindness. Flattery is a curse and a danger ...at least to me . I am sure I already think more highly of myself than I ever should ...as a matter of fact , I should not think of myself but rather I should die to self that He might live .

 

[Neogaia777]

By trying or exerting self-effort, or any kind of effort in "trying" to keep the commandments, by observing the commandments, you will fail miserably... You must observe Christ by faith, not the letter of the law(s)... Keeping the commandments must be a "fruit" of faith, of true, right Belief, of a truly converted person... A "fruit" not a work. Not by a work of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, or in faith of the law being a "fruit" of perfected faith... Not a work, not by effort, but a fruit of right believing, are those who have the fruit of keeping the commandments, by right believing and a, in short, "perfect(ed) faith"...

Fulfillment of the law comes by the law of faith or right believing, and by that faith, fulfills it as a fruit, and not by a work...

Those ones are known by the Lord and they know him...

The only work you should do is whatever is necessary to strengthen bolster and increase your faith, your believing right, and if you focus on this and not the letter of the law, as you work on only your faith, fulfilling the law will be a fruit of that...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

By trying or exerting self-effort, or any kind of effort in "trying" to keep the commandments, by observing the commandments, you will fail miserably... You must observe Christ by faith, not the letter of the law(s)... Keeping the commandments must be a "fruit" of faith, of true, right Belief, of a truly converted person... A "fruit" not a work. Not by a work of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, or in faith of the law being a "fruit" of perfected faith... Not a work, not by effort, but a fruit of right believing, are those who have the fruit of keeping the commandments, by right believing and a, in short, "perfect(ed) faith"...

Fulfillment of the law comes by the law of faith or right believing, and by that faith, fulfills it as a fruit, and not by a work...

Those ones are known by the Lord and they know him...

The only work you should do is whatever is necessary to strengthen bolster and increase your faith, your believing right, and if you focus on this and not the letter of the law, as you work on only your faith, fulfilling the law will be a fruit of that...

God Bless!

Very true. If our hearts are not doing it for the right reasons, love of God, we can only do it a few times because we are not motivated deep in our hearts. But doing something out of love, brings the same thing every time. Something that is good, born from love and follows the two commandemnts of love that Jesus left us with.

 

[Neogaia777]

Very true. If our hearts are not doing it for the right reasons, love of God, we can only do it a few times because we are not motivated deep in our hearts. But doing something out of love, brings the same thing every time. Something that is good, born from love and follows the two commandemnts of love that Jesus left us with.

Yes, exactly, thanks for that...

God Bless!

 

[TheSeabass]

Works (of the Law) cursed, under a curse, means...

"Performance based Salvation"... Doing (good works) to get or expecting a reward for doing or performing... Instead of "Faith based Salvation"...

If you have a true Faith based Salvation, you will do and have the "fruit" of good works... But, not because your doing it out of, or expecting, or even thinking at all about "getting" for it... But, because, and out of, your (converted, reborn, new) "heart", if it is true and real...

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works... For only he, himself, and perhaps not even he, but only God knows a man's fruit of his faith, or works for sure and can "judge", we cannot...

I do know that I have "some" good works (of late, even more so) but, I am not keeping track... Not enough to make up for my bad works, but that is not the point... The point is, I am doing (more so now) because of my newly converted heart that cares and is full of mercy now, in me... Not because I'm expecting to get or gain anything by it or for them, but, just out of charity and mercy, from my heart and "just because" it is right and good, alone...

God Bless!

A common mistake some make is in failing to realize that faith is a work, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Galatians 3:5; Mark 2:1-5.

Those that are Christians can 'want' to do works, yet doing good works is a requirement (Ephesians 2:10) regardless of what the Christians may or may not want. An example of a good work is a Christian who works to provide for his family, yet if he does not do this good work in providing for his family he is worse than an infidel, 1 Timothy 5:8. Therefore without these good works salvation become impossible for the Christian thereby making these good works essential to salvation meaning faith only does not bring initial salvation nor can it maintain salvation for the Christian.

Good works do not merit one salvation but God made good works a necessary condition for the Christian to remain in a saved position.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works (of the Law) cursed, under a curse, means...

"Performance based Salvation"... Doing (good works) to get or expecting a reward for doing or performing... Instead of "Faith based Salvation"...

If you have a true Faith based Salvation, you will do and have the "fruit" of good works... But, not because your doing it out of, or expecting, or even thinking at all about "getting" for it... But, because, and out of, your (converted, reborn, new) "heart", if it is true and real...

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works... For only he, himself, and perhaps not even he, but only God knows a man's fruit of his faith, or works for sure and can "judge", we cannot...
I do know that I have "some" good works (of late, even more so) but, I am not keeping track... Not enough to make up for my bad works, but that is not the point... The point is, I am doing (more so now) because of my newly converted heart that cares and is full of mercy now, in me... Not because I'm expecting to get or gain anything by it or for them, but, just out of charity and mercy, from my heart and "just because" it is right and good, alone...

God Bless!

Salvation is not possible without God both in Justification and in Sanctification. Therein lies your confusion. However, God is not in the business or habit of force regenerating people against their free will to be saved, though. It is a walk with God. We cooperate with God and His work of salvation (or good that He can do in our lives). For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Hebrews 13:14). This means we need to take action of some kind in order for Jesus to destroy the works of the devil within our lives (1 John 3:8).

For did you not perform an action to accept Jesus as your Savior? Was that not a good work on your part with God? In other words, you did perform in order to be saved. For if you did not take action or perform in some way, then you wouldn't be initially saved by God's grace by believing in Him as your Savior and believing that He died for your sins and rose again 3 days later on your behalf. You believe that faith produces good fruit. Yet, you also somehow think that bad fruit is a normal part of a believer's whole life. How is that all that different from unbelieving religionists who believe in doing good? Their fruit would not be all that different than your fruit. Their would be no distinguishing between the world and God's holy people with your belief for it makes an allowance for evil and renders the lifestyle of a believer as no more different than others.

To put it to you another way, verses like this one just do not make sense in light of your belief.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world" (Philippians 2:15).​

Yet, you want me to think that the sons of God are also crooked and they do not shine as lights amongst a crooked and perverse nation.

Paul talks about Justification in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. James talks about Sanctification in James 2.
James says in James 2:24 that we are justified by works and not by faith only or faith alone. James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17). James says in James 2:18 that he will show you his faith by his works. If you were to read Hebrews 11, it shows us that works always accompanied faith with the great men of faith mentioned within Scripture. Jesus says you will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. There were certain individuals claiming they did great things for God (like miracles and stuff) and yet Jesus said they worked iniquity or lawlessness. Jesus told them to depart from Him. This means these type of believers thought they were saved because they were doing miracles and stuff. But Jesus said, I never knew you. 1 John 2:4 says he that says He knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. For we can have an assurance in knowing Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commands (1 John 2:3).

Paul says you can deny the Lord by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

Today, many think it is impossible to overcome their sin. Jesus said to his disciples that what is impossible for man to do is not impossible with God. This was in relation to being rich. The rich young ruler went away sad because he was not willing to give up his riches. Yet, the disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus. Jesus concluded Matthew 19 by saying that those who forsake all things for Christ will inherit eternal life (See Matthew 19:29).

Did not Peter fail to do a good work as a result of his lack of faith? For Peter could not walk on the water like Jesus because he lacked faith. It is the same today. Many today have already decided they cannot overcome their sin in this life with God's help. No doubt, folks want to serve two masters. They want to serve God and yet they also want to serve their sin, too. However, Jesus says you will love the one and hate the other.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

For did you not perform an action to accept Jesus as your Savior? Was that not a good work on your part with God? In other words, you did perform in order to be saved. For if you did not take action or perform in some way, then you wouldn't be initially saved by God's grace by believing in Him as your Savior and believing that He died for your sins and rose again 3 days later on your behalf.
...

Then you are in conflict with the Bible. God's Word says that we can do nothing to please God without the Holy Spirit.

So accepting Jesus Christ cannot be a good work, because we cannot even please God until we have been saved.

People that call coming to Christ in faith a work, don't know that witout the Holy Spirit we cannot even please God. When we are His Children and He works in us, then we please God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then you are in conflict with the Bible. God's Word says that we can do nothing to please God without the Holy Spirit.

So accepting Jesus Christ cannot be a good work, because we cannot even please God until we have been saved.

People that call coming to Christ in faith a work, don't know that witout the Holy Spirit we cannot even please God. When we are His Children and He works in us, then we please God.

Nowhere did I say anything about how God does not work within us. On the contrary, I believe all three members of the Godhead or the Trinity work within the believer to do good in their life. However, a believer has to cooperate with God, though.

Loving God:

Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

John says, "Whosoever keeps His Word, verily is the love of God perfected," (1 John 2:5).


Being a Friend of the Lord:

Jesus says, "You are my friends if you do whatsoever I command." (John 15:14).


Doing good is pleasing to God:

“And Enoch walked with God…” (Genesis 5:24).
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3).
"He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake." (Psalms 23:3).
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5).


“20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God.” (Colossians 1:10 NIV).

1 Thessalonians 4:1 says, “Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.”


1 Timothy 2:2-3 says,
2 “For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour”

“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10).

“...even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.” (1 Thessalonians 2:4).

“But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.” (Hebrews 13:16).


Encouragement in Continuing to do Good:

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. (Galatians 6:9).


Doing God’s will is a salvation issue.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that God’s will is for you to be holy (NLT).

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:16-17).

“And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:17).

Cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).

We can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).

If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).


God’s Opinion on Righteousness and or Sin:

God the Father says of Jesus that He, “loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;” (Hebrews 1:9).

“I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness.” (1 Chronicles 29:17).

“They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight” (Proverbs 11:20).

“....they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8).

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” (Romans 8:5).



...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nowhere did I say anything about how God does not work within us. On the contrary, I believe all three members of the Godhead or the Trinity work within the believer to do good in their life. However, a believer has to cooperate with God, though.
...

You said that faith is a work. It is not a work because we cannot even please God until after we have salvation.

Somehow you missed the basic point.