Works... Performance based salvation and Faith based salvation...

[Neogaia777]

Works (of the Law) cursed, under a curse, means...

"Performance based Salvation"... Doing (good works) to get or expecting a reward for doing or performing... Instead of "Faith based Salvation"...

If you have a true Faith based Salvation, you will do and have the "fruit" of good works... But, not because your doing it out of, or expecting, or even thinking at all about "getting" for it... But, because, and out of, your (converted, reborn, new) "heart", if it is true and real...

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works... For only he, himself, and perhaps not even he, but only God knows a man's fruit of his faith, or works for sure and can "judge", we cannot...

I do know that I have "some" good works (of late, even more so) but, I am not keeping track... Not enough to make up for my bad works, but that is not the point... The point is, I am doing (more so now) because of my newly converted heart that cares and is full of mercy now, in me... Not because I'm expecting to get or gain anything by it or for them, but, just out of charity and mercy, from my heart and "just because" it is right and good, alone...

God Bless!

 

[NeedyFollower]

Works (of the Law) cursed, under a curse, means...

"Performance based Salvation"... Doing (good works) to get or expecting a reward for doing or performing... Instead of "Faith based Salvation"...

If you have a true Faith based Salvation, you will do and have the "fruit" of good works... But, not because your doing it out of, or expecting, or even thinking at all about "getting" for it... But, because, and out of, your (converted, reborn, new) "heart", if it is true and real...

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works... For only he, himself, and perhaps not even he, but only God knows a man's fruit of his faith, or works for sure and can "judge", we cannot...

I do know that I have "some" good works (of late, even more so) but, I am not keeping track... Not enough to make up for my bad works, but that is not the point... The point is, I am doing (more so now) because of my newly converted heart that cares and is full of mercy now, in me... Not because I'm expecting to get or gain anything by it or for them, but, just out of charity and mercy, from my heart and "just because" it is right and good, alone...

God Bless!

You know in light of a Christianity that seems a bit like everyone else in the world ( the pursuit of wealth , careers , cars , houses , vacations , many marriages , etc. ) I wonder if we have turned grace into licentiousness ? I know Luther said we are saved by grace but he added alone . I wonder if the works that Paul discussed was the keeping of the Law verses working out our own salvation with fear and trembling in recognition of the great mercy and sacrifice God has shown us by His gift . In other words , the sanctification process and discipleship ...the pruning of the tree in order to bear good fruit . Is it ironic in revelation , Jesus tells the Churches to repent ..not the lost ...why is that ?

 

[thecolorsblend]

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works...

How does that square with St. Matthew 7:16?

 

[Neogaia777]

How does that square with St. Matthew 7:16?

That only applies to religious teachers, leaders... and how the followers of their teachings are (the fruit) but not the followers themselves

How does that jive with not judging, or the differences between those who make a showy display of there good works and those who like to keep it more discreet and don't want any credit so many do not know?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You know in light of a Christianity that seems a bit like everyone else in the world ( the pursuit of wealth , careers , cars , houses , vacations , many marriages , etc. ) I wonder if we have turned grace into licentiousness ? I know Luther said we are saved by grace but he added alone . I wonder if the works that Paul discussed was the keeping of the Law verses working out our own salvation with fear and trembling in recognition of the great mercy and sacrifice God has shown us by His gift . In other words , the sanctification process and discipleship ...the pruning of the tree in order to bear good fruit . Is it ironic in revelation , Jesus tells the Churches to repent ..not the lost ...why is that ?

Paul said, what do I have to do with judging those outside, do you not judge those inside?

God Bless!

 

[thecolorsblend]

That only applies to religious teachers, leaders... and how the followers of their teachings are (the fruit) but not the followers themselves

How does that jive with not judging, or the differences between those who make a showy display of there good works and those who like to keep it more discreet and don't want any credit so many do not know?

Where are we told not to judge? I can recall an occasion in St. Matthew 7 when Our Lord warned that the standard by which we judge others will be used by others to judge us.

So, for example, it's safe to say that the ship has sailed for Bill Clinton giving a lecture admonishing men to be faithful to their wives because it would be hypocritical of him. But I could do that if I were so inclined because I've never been unfaithful. I can meet the standard to which I'm holding others when it comes to fidelity.

Short of that, I can't think of an occasion when we're instructed not to judge. And as I say, the one time those words came out of Our Lord's mouth, He was warning against judging hypocritically rather than against the practice itself.

 

[Kiterius]

Faith alone saves, but what is faith? Surely there must be more to it than intellectual assent to a checklist of doctrines. James wrote that faith without works is dead. Is Spirit-driven praxis, then, not as important as is theory?

 

[Soyeong]

Works (of the Law) cursed, under a curse, means...

"Performance based Salvation"... Doing (good works) to get or expecting a reward for doing or performing... Instead of "Faith based Salvation"...

If you have a true Faith based Salvation, you will do and have the "fruit" of good works... But, not because your doing it out of, or expecting, or even thinking at all about "getting" for it... But, because, and out of, your (converted, reborn, new) "heart", if it is true and real...

You will not be keeping count or track, or even be thinking at all about your good works, but, they will just "be" (so) and happen automatically because of your, perhaps, "new", right converted heart in you...

But, no man should think he can judge another man based on this, that you do not see his fruit or his works... For only he, himself, and perhaps not even he, but only God knows a man's fruit of his faith, or works for sure and can "judge", we cannot...

I do know that I have "some" good works (of late, even more so) but, I am not keeping track... Not enough to make up for my bad works, but that is not the point... The point is, I am doing (more so now) because of my newly converted heart that cares and is full of mercy now, in me... Not because I'm expecting to get or gain anything by it or for them, but, just out of charity and mercy, from my heart and "just because" it is right and good, alone...

God Bless!

According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, God's law brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so being set free from the curse of the law means that we are now free from living in disobedience to it and are now free to enjoy the blessing of living in obedience to it by faith. At no point has obedience to God's law ever been about trying to become justified and Paul spent a lot of time hammering home the point that we are justified by faith apart from the law. Abraham was justified by faith apart from the law, David was justified by faith apart from the law (Romans 4:1-8), and everyone in both the OT and NT who has ever been justified was justified by faith apart from the law, so the law was never needed nor given for that purpose. In Deuteronomy 6:24 and Deuteronomy 10:13, God said that what He commanded was for our own good, so obedience to God's commands has always been about demonstrating our faith in Him about how we should live, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). However, it is not the actions itself that we are justified by, but rather we are justified by the faith that leads us to obey God's law. It is not the hearers of the law who will be justified, but the doers (Romans 2:13). The way for us to see that someone is justified by observing their works (James 2:24). They way to see that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law (Romans 2:26), which is the same way for Jews (Deuteronomy 30:6).

 

[Soyeong]

How does that jive with not judging,

God Bless!

Matthew 7 does not say flat out "do not judge" period, but rather it says, "or you too will be judged". We will be judged by the same measure that we judge others, so if we are guilty of doing what we are judging in others, then we should not judge, but rather when we judge we should judge righteously. We must take take the plank out of our own eye before we can see clearly to remove the speck from our brother's eye, but we can't take the speck out of our brothers eye without judging.

John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Ezekiel 33:8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Matthew 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Proverbs 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Galatians 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

We can't follow any of these verses without judging, so we are actually supposed to judge others, but we must judge righteously. Only God can judge whether someone is going to heaven or hell, but we are to make judgements to expose sin.

or the differences between those who make a showy display of there good works and those who like to keep it more discreet and don't want any credit so many do not know?

The difference between self-righteousness and God's righteousness is not in a particular action, but in who gets the glory. Two people can both do the same righteous action of helping the poor, with one bring glory only to themselves, while the other brings glory to God.

 

[Neogaia777]

Where are we told not to judge? I can recall an occasion in St. Matthew 7 when Our Lord warned that the standard by which we judge others will be used by others to judge us.

So, for example, it's safe to say that the ship has sailed for Bill Clinton giving a lecture admonishing men to be faithful to their wives because it would be hypocritical of him. But I could do that if I were so inclined because I've never been unfaithful. I can meet the standard to which I'm holding others when it comes to fidelity.

Short of that, I can't think of an occasion when we're instructed not to judge. And as I say, the one time those words came out of Our Lord's mouth, He was warning against judging hypocritically rather than against the practice itself.

Yes, not judge hypocritically is correct, do not judge a matter based on a thing or matter you yourself are not willing to be judged by, practice what you preach is another way of saying it...

And we are only to judge those inside our house, fellow Christians... And, in a matter we oursleves are willing to be judged by...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where are we told not to judge? I can recall an occasion in St. Matthew 7 when Our Lord warned that the standard by which we judge others will be used by others to judge us.

So, for example, it's safe to say that the ship has sailed for Bill Clinton giving a lecture admonishing men to be faithful to their wives because it would be hypocritical of him. But I could do that if I were so inclined because I've never been unfaithful. I can meet the standard to which I'm holding others when it comes to fidelity.

Short of that, I can't think of an occasion when we're instructed not to judge. And as I say, the one time those words came out of Our Lord's mouth, He was warning against judging hypocritically rather than against the practice itself.

So what? You probably have 100 other sins but not infidelity, so you are better than no other human. We are all justified by Christ and His righteousness, not our own.

So what again makes you able to judge someone else's heart when Christ says that only God knows the contents of any man's heart and is the only righteous judge?

The warning was against judging others when you have never walked a day in their shoes. Are some people hypocrite's? Definately, but Christ will judge them. He is the only just, perfect and righteous judge.

If you think otherwise you have a lot to learn. Compassion and mercy and understanding are woefully lacking in Christianity. People will gladly cast stones at others but not lift a finger to restore them to God again. It is mostly hypocricy at it's finest. When we are judging others we are looking at their sin and the things we may do good, but we should always be looking within ourselves, not distracting ourselves with others.

Now there are circumstances when we KNOW for sure a brother or sister is in terrible unrepentant sin, say they confide in us or we know for sure, then we try to bring that person back to God, repentance and to faith, but we bring them to God, not judge them for we can fall also.

God telling us that the standard by which we judge others we will be judged by is not a good thing. It is a bad thing because if God judges us and we judge others than that will be no good for you or anyone else that judges others. Just because you do not commit their sin doesn't leave you out of judgement because you judged them, it just means God will judge you harshly for your sin as you have judged another. I wouldn't hang my hat on that verse anymore.

 

[thecolorsblend]

So what? You probably have 100 other sins but not infidelity

Very true, which means I can speak with authority about the beauty and value of fidelity. I have credibility on that subject.

so you are better than no other human. We are all justified by Christ and His righteousness, not our own.

This isn't a matter of justification; it's discipleship. Or, if you prefer, iron sharpening iron.

So what again makes you able to judge someone else's heart when Christ says that only God knows the contents of any man's heart and is the only righteous judge?

Good golly, I have not claimed and would not claim to judge someone else's heart.

Their actions? I absolutely can judge them. As can you.

The warning was against judging others when you have never walked a day in their shoes.

Um, no it wasn't. In fact that had nothing to do with it. Our Lord said judge not that ye be not judged for the same measure you use against others will be used against you... a comparison which, in my fidelity example, I can withstand.

He is the only just, perfect and righteous judge.

I have not said anything to the contrary.

If you think otherwise you have a lot to learn.

Ibid.

God telling us that the standard by which we judge others we will be judged by is not a good thing.

Neither is it a bad thing. It's merely true. And if it's a burden you can meet (eg, you're not judging hypocritically), it's not a problem.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Very true, which means I can speak with authority about the beauty and value of fidelity. I have credibility on that subject.

Well actually on this I would agree with you. Nothing wrong with speaking on the beauty of something you have with your spouse, it is the judgement of someone else that was the problem I had. Justifying judgement of someone else because you have not committed that sin.

It is wonderful that you have that credibility. Share it in a positive light, not being judgemental but sharing what joy you have found by following God's Word. I'm sure it will edify others.

Although, I am not here to judge you, but God's Word says if we even look at another with lust in our hearts (which most of us, I would say all but again I don't want you to feel judged) that is adultery, but that is beyond the point that we are discussing, just adding that in because it is God's Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This isn't a matter of justification; it's discipleship. Or, if you prefer, iron sharpening iron.

Well on this I could agree with you if you really, really knew the person well and had concrete proof of their sin and knew that they had not repented of that sin.

The problem is and the point that I was trying to make is that many people judge others that they do not know well or know little about. Then this is seen as condemnation of the person, rather than condemnation of the sin and the love being shown (rather than condemnation and judgement) of wanting to restore a brother or sister back to peace with God in love.

So what I many times question is the motivation of the person and whether they know the other person well enough to actually help them through the ordeal, or if they want to just correct them and walk away.

Do you see my point?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Neither is it a bad thing. It's merely true. And if it's a burden you can meet (eg, you're not judging hypocritically), it's not a problem.

What I see as the problem and this is not directly related to you or what we are discussing is when Christians correct without taking any time to do the hard work of walking by that person's side through the ordeal. I also see the problem of things not proven becoming gossip many times which also hurt's the body of Christ in the church. I also believe that in many cases, correction is best to come from the pastor or deacons of the church that can work with that person and are called to shepherd the sheep.

If our motivation is love for that person and restoration of their relationship with God and their family than pointing out the sin is only part of the solution.

What I seek to ask fellow Christians is what is 'our' motivation? Is it to love and restore? Or to judge?

That is my point.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Well actually on this I would agree with you. Nothing wrong with speaking on the beauty of something you have with your spouse, it is the judgement of someone else that was the problem I had. Justifying judgement of someone else because you have not committed that sin.

In that case, your problem is with Our Lord and His sermons so I'd advise taking it up with Him.

Well on this I could agree with you if you really, really knew the person well and had concrete proof of their sin and knew that they had not repented of that sin.

Once again you demonstrate a profound ability to get lost in the weeds over trivial details which in no way relate to the main point. Someone said we can't judge the behaviors of others. However, not only can we do so but we must do so. Obviously there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. I don't think anybody has said otherwise; I certainly haven't. But stating the obvious as you have is a distraction from the point.

This insipid idea that Christians can't or shouldn't judge the behavior of other Christians is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.

What I see as the problem and this is not directly related to you or what we are discussing is when Christians correct without taking any time to do the hard work of walking by that person's side through the ordeal.

That's one reason I value the sacrament of Confession as much as I do. I can take issues with which I struggle to my Confessor and he can correct my behavior in a completely unbiased and objective way. Still, one need not be ordained in order to call sin sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In that case, your problem is with Our Lord and His sermons so I'd advise taking it up with Him.

Once again you demonstrate a profound ability to get lost in the weeds over trivial details which in no way relate to the main point. Someone said we can't judge the behaviors of others. However, not only can we do so but we must do so. Obviously there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. I don't think anybody has said otherwise; I certainly haven't. But stating the obvious as you have is a distraction from the point.

This insipid idea that Christians can't or shouldn't judge the behavior of other Christians is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.

That's one reason I value the sacrament of Confession as much as I do. I can take issues with which I struggle to my Confessor and he can correct my behavior in a completely unbiased and objective way. Still, one need not be ordained in order to call sin sin.

Ask your pastor sometime how many people leave churches because of other people. How much strife is caused by judgment.

I was pretty clear in my answer that I was not against in any way bringing someone lovingly and helping them come back from sin to being right with God, so I think you are overreacting.

I have the right to my opinion. If you are personally offended than you should know it is not about any person specifically more to how we handle relationships and judgement overall as a Church/Body of Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Neither is it a bad thing. It's merely true. And if it's a burden you can meet (eg, you're not judging hypocritically), it's not a problem.

There was a study done on why people loved to watch the talk shows that are trash tv in many people's minds. The one's where someone confronts their spouse with a huge secret on national tv and embarrasses themselves and their spouse.

What the study found is that people love watching Maury, Ricki Lake, ect. because it makes them feel good that they are decent enough people that they are better than those on the show and therefore it makes them feel superior. That is the way our mind and hearts work. God's Word says "the heart is deceiptful above all things, who can know it"? That is because we can always find a way to support our actions or thinking processes if given enough time to qualify them.

I really cannot understand why you would not agree with me that acting in love, edification and support of sinners is what brings them back to Christ. What doesn't is them feeling judged and admonished to the point that they avoid the church. Please note in the verse below that their is an outcome which is to turn them from the error, not just to speak an error.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's one reason I value the sacrament of Confession as much as I do. I can take issues with which I struggle to my Confessor and he can correct my behavior in a completely unbiased and objective way. Still, one need not be ordained in order to call sin sin.

I agree with you. But I also note that you used the words "I can take issues" so even you are showing a preference not for just giving someone a message, but the person committing the sin to come to repentance and seek restoration of their sin to become right with God again.

That is my point, that the person seeks restoration to God instead of rebelling against the judgement.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Whatever, dude.