WORKS OF CARL SAGAN....

[foolsparade]

This reminds of an online conversation I had a few years ago with some young chap, fresh from a witness rally trying to tell me Einstein was a Christian. I also tangled with some dude who was suggesting how stupid and immoral atheists were, and later I come to find out that he was a amature Science Fiction writer and his Idol was Isaac Asimov! I think part of the game plan among teens is to claim brillant people as their own. and then just to lie..

"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centures since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
-- Isaac Asimov, Canadian Atheists Newsletter, 1994

 

[freespirit2001]

Atheist is not a dirty word. Many theists have, throughout history, tried to portray Atheists as boogymen. Why fall for their trap?



And I will contine to make references to The Illiad, The Odyssey, Alice in Wonderland, and accepting Iggy the Magic Elf as a personal lord and savior. Must I believe in these things in order to use them to prove a point?

...or do the words "metaphor," and "allegory" hold no particular meaning?

Your metaphorical comparisions are funny....apples to oranges...apples to eggs...


When I think of the age of the Inquisition ( do I need to re-quote Carl Sagan about his views on religion coming out of the inquisition from, The Demon-Haunted World...The Candle in the Dark) One well known figure in the center of the times of the Inquisition is Niccolo Machiavelli.....Though he was a great statesperson " having initated a pragmatic mode of political discourse entirely independent of the ethical considerations of the traditional sources of moral authority of the times."..and perhaps had some controversial views....his social image or his "presented self" he projected to others was greatly exploited by the times he lived in....it was bloodthirsty times for anyone who assumed any power in that time of religious hierarchies...Later Shakespeare exploited him in his works...and now pretensious behaviors in our middle-class pretensious struggles of climbing the corporate ladder have inherited Machiavellian personality traits in how they want to run office or neighborhood politics...its a cynical nature...and justifies craftiness and dishonesty...the opposite of emotional intelligence....

Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein were both very humanistic scientists....the imaging and sterotyping of all authorities of science, tends to be machiavellian in nature---cool, very unapproachable intelligent "godless" men...geeky people...mental robots...unempathic with others people's "God".....Has anyone looked at the big picture in time what that image of "God", through the last 500 years, looks like to a sensitive child...let alone a man of science....?

I'm accepting my gut feelings that these men had to have exceptional values and beliefs, and belief in the fact that there is something more intelligent in higher realms or kingdoms...that man is a part of that intelligence...but people have stereo-typed them with labels of being without a "christian" God that we know as christians, and this tendency to label in such ways was inherited from the Inquisitional past, the past of witchcraft, the machiavellian tendencies in our religious nature that can lead to that kind of authority that is blinding and blood thirsty....( Where consciousnesses are seared) Einstein and the atomic bomb...wasn't that when all the preachers were dramatizing in the in the pulpit preaching "Fear the Lord!!!"

In Communication courses in school...one of the first things you learn is "The perception, the self and communication" how you communicate how you perceive yourself to others...and how you really present yourself to others...perceived self and presented self...men and woman both have DISCREPTANCIES IN HOW THEY ACTUALLY PERCEIVE THEMSELVES AS TO HOW THEY ACTUALLY PRESENT THEMSELVES... Of course with all our technology, and Sagan was a part of that technology...Some other web sites that I have seen Carl Sagan on...that are pro-evolution...are so radical!!! He didn't buy into that kind of radicalism...his messages and quotes back me up by that...

I still think labeling them as atheists or agnostics....its not mine to judge those things...But its unhealthy for my spiritual and emotional intelligence to do so in my life....That social image of "God" changes in time...I don't like judging by middle-class pretenses....I'm going to stand by my pragmatic objective reasoning about both these scientists that I feel were also humanitarians for science and religion as well....

 

[Physics_guy]

I am sorry, but if you want to continue to believe that Einstein, Sagan, Paine, and Freud were Christians (Einstein a Christian - that made me laugh) or even believers in any kind of Universal intelligence, you are simply changing them to fit your views. Obviously you have a bigotted view that atheists cannot be people with laudable values, but you are in bind because many of the people you identify as laudable were actually atheists (note: I am not insulting these men by calling them atheists - "atheist" is not a bad word - I am being true to their own stated beliefs and opinions, you however are insulting them by suggesting that they had to have the same religious beliefs as you because otherwise they couldn't have had such strong values).

Sit down and think a bit about your own bigotry - why must you believe that these men believed in a higher intelligence? Why do you think it is necessary for intelligent men with strong morals believe in your God?

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.”
-- Albert Einstein

 

[Nathan Poe]

Your metaphorical comparisions are funny....apples to oranges...apples to eggs...I guess you could go one better with a comparision....using 'jurisdiction' as a reference point: "YY" OR "XY".... ISN'T IN kANSAS ANYMORE....

Having read this, I am forced to come to the conclusion that have no idea what you're talking about.

Thank you for playing; please come again.

When I think of the age of the Inquisition ( do I need to re-quote Carl Sagan about his views on religion coming out of the inquisition from, The Demon-Haunted World...The Candle in the Dark)

Yes you do... and please try to get it right this time...

One well known figure in the center of the times of the Inquisition is Niccolo Machiavelli.....Though he was a great statesperson " having initated a pragmatic mode of political discourse entirely independent of the ethical considerations of the traditional sources of moral authority of the times."

Bingo... independent of the traditional sources.... i.e., the Church.
You're completely off the map on this one, and you do not want to debate Machiavelli with me...

..and perhaps had some controversial views....his social image or his "presented self" he projected to others was greatly exploited by the times he lived in....it was bloodthirsty times for anyone who assumed any power in that time of religious hierarchies...Later Shakespeare exploited him in his works...and now pretensious behaviors in our middle-class pretensious struggles of climbing the corporate ladder have inherited Machiavellian personality traits in how they want to run office or neighborhood politics...its a cynical nature...and justifies craftiness and dishonesty...the opposite of emotional intelligence....

It's a realistic and pragmatic nature, understanding the world for the way it is, and not the way it should be, or the way we'd like it to be.... kind of blows the need for a God out of the water, doesn't it?

Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein were both very humanistic scientists....

Indeed they were... Secular Humanists, in fact.

the imaging and sterotyping of all authorities of science, tends to be machiavellian in nature---cool, very unapproachable intelligent "godless" men...geeky people...mental robots...unempathic with others people's "God".....

That is nothing more than the strawman that theists such as yourself have used to discredit scientists. Atheist does not mean any of the things you've described. It means "does not believe in a God." And that's all it means.

Has anyone looked at the big picture in time what that image of "God", through the last 500 years, looks like to a sensitive child...let alone a man of science....?

Yes, and Neither Sagan nor Einstein believed in any form of God, neither the God of 500 years ago, nor one of today.

Please learn to accept that.

I'm accepting my gut feelings that these men had to have exceptional values and beliefs,

So far, so good...

and belief in the fact that there is something more intelligent in higher realms or kingdoms...that man is a part of that intelligence...

And here's where your "gut feelings" lose their basis in reality. But cheer up, you are 1 for 2, after all.

but people have stereo-typed them with labels of being without a "christian" God that we know as christians,

Probably because neither wone of them was Christian. Is that so hard to believe?

and this tendency to label in such ways was inherited from the Inquisitional past, the past of witchcraft, the machiavellian tendencies in our religious nature that can lead to that kind of authority that is blinding and blood thirsty....( Where consciousnesses are seared) Einstein and the atomic bomb...wasn't that when all the preachers were dramatizing in the in the pulpit preaching "Fear the Lord!!!"

You're of fthe map again. Come back into the light... back to the light...

In Communication courses in school...one of the first things you learn is "The perception, the self and communication" how you communicate how you perceive yourself to others...and how you really present yourself to others...perceived self and presented self...men and woman both have DISCREPTANCIES IN HOW THEY ACTUALLY PERCEIVE THEMSELVES AS TO HOW THEY ACTUALLY PRESENT THEMSELVES... Of course with all our technology, and Sagan was a part of that technology...Some other web sites that I have seen Carl Sagan on...that are pro-evolution...are so radical!!! He didn't buy into that kind of radicalism...his messages and quotes back me up by that...

But they do not support any kind of religious beliefs. The man was an Atheist. He said as much himself.

I still think labeling them as atheists or agnostics....its not mine to judge those things...But its unhealthy for my spiritual and emotional intelligence to do so in my life....

Your spiritual and emotional intelligence will have to yield to the facts. The facts will not change to fit anyone's particular delusion.

That social image of "God" changes in time...I don't like judging by middle-class pretenses....I'm going to stand by my pragmatic objective reasoning about both these scientists that I feel were also humanitarians for science and religion as well....

Well, neither of them were violently opposed to religion; they just didn't believe it themselves. Where's the problem?

 

[freespirit2001]

I still notice some Argumentum ad populum fallacies...the bandwagon appeal about the faith in these two scientists....there was a bit of a Ad hominem...someone being bigoted in their attitude...but I realize there is alot of passion in studies of scientific leaders ( as well as religious ones) of the past millenium..

..I am conscious my arguments for being in favor of the faith of these two scientists may be abit on the absurd and tends to be percieved as a Reducio ad Absurdum fallacy...but this is how I approach what I understand about faith and science and religion...perhaps also in behavior science in marketing and about behavior around me in general....some of what I understand about emotional intelligence and my studies of spirit and faith

Faith...the process of believing in God and believing in higher laws that are mysterious in nature tends to be a absurd process of the rational mind to begin with..." I believe because it is absurd..." Faith, to the christians is a gift from God....."it is not our own doing but a gift from God" as it is written in the book of Romans...Scientists have to have a kind of faith that starts as an assumption then moves on to proof or validation....to me...what is written about Carl Sagan and his quotes, suggests to me,that he is telling us to use the same approach in our faith as well....

Maslow has a theory about motiavation and basic human needs...Its called Maslow hierarchy of basic human needs:

The first of all our needs are survival needs...then safety needs...then social needs and needs to be accepted...then there are needs for self-esteem...Self-accutualization is the last of our basic human needs...BUT SO FEW PEOPLE FIND IT....This passage about faith and the spirit speaks to me what real self-actualization is:

" The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with everyone born of the spirit of God." John 3:8

Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truely I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation, anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to Him." Acts 10:34-35

Carl Sagan was concerned about fanaticism in religions and blind faith:

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accurarcy and reliability of Science?....No other human instution comes close...."
Carl Sagan THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD

" How rigerous the standards of evidence must be if we are really to know something is true; how many false starts and dead ends have plagued human thinking; how our biases can color our interpretation of evidence; how our belief systems widely held and supported by the politcal, religious and academic hierarchies often turn out to be not slightly in error but grotesquely wrong. Everything hinges on the matter of evidence.".....People make mistakes. People play practical jokes. People stretch the truth for money, attention or fame. People occasionally misunderstand what they are seeing. People even see things that aren't there...."

" If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?"

" If we can't think for ourselves, if we're unwilling to question the "authority" ( or the "hierachies" in general).." then we're putty in the hands of those powers...

BUT IF THE CITIZENS ARE EDUCATED and form thir own opinions, then those in power work for us.

In every country, we should be TEACHING OUR CHILDREN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND THE REASONS FOR THE BILL OF RIGHTS...With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit....( In other words, without the values of education and skill developement and healthy behavioral knowledge) ...this may be all that stands between us and enveloping darkness....."


Daniel Goleman had a best selling book out in the 90's called "Emotional Intelligence". Emotional Intelligence is awareness of one's own feelings as they occur. The knowing and understanding of one's emotions is crucial to psychological insight and self understanding ( as well as for developing good assertive skills in life). Our passions, when well exercised, have wisdom to guide our thinking, our values and our survival. Emotional Intelligence includes: compassion and empathy, self discipline and self-control ( this allows us to develope assertive skills) better problem-solving abilites...motivation...THE ARTS OF LISTENING...the ability to inspire others...etc...

" Market forces are re-shaping our worklife and putting a premium on emotional intelligence in the workplace for on the job success."

I think that was what Carl Sagan was meaning about the educated minds...

______

"Science without religion is lame,
Religion without science is blind."
Einstein
_______

" Learning without thought is labor lost;
Thought without learning is perilous."
Confucius
______

When I gaze up at tha stars at night...I am told by science that the light that is coming down to me from those stars is over 10,000 year old....I see that light now...? I wasn't here 10,000 year ago...yet I see that star light...to me that is a great mystery of faith...Einstein and Carl Sagan were scientists that were aware that there are laws of marvelous order and discipline in the universe.... there are processes and concepts ....still yet to be understood and unfold...far ahead of what we are coming out with our knowledge of better behavior management in our culture now....

Einstein also played the violin....music and math are both the universal language...these men were not alone in their genius....and I believe had a faith that we haven't been able to tap into yet....

EINSTEIN"S FAITH...

" His was not a life of prayer and worship. Yet he lived by a deep faith---A FAITH NOT CAPABLE OF RATIONAL FOUNDATION----that there are laws of nature to be discovered, His lifelong pursuit was to discover them. His realism and his optimism are illuminated by this remark: " SUBTLE IS THE LORD, BUT MALICIOUS HE IS NOT."
When asked by a colleague what he meant by that, he replied" " Nature hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but by not by means of ruse."
ALbert Einstein

 

[toff]

I still notice some Argumentum ad populum fallacies...the bandwagon appeal about the faith in these two scientists....there was a bit of a Ad hominem...someone being bigoted in their attitude...but I realize there is alot of passion in studies of scientific leaders ( as well as religious ones) of the past millenium..

..I am conscious my arguments for being in favor of the faith of these two scientists may be abit on the absurd and tends to be percieved as a Reducio ad Absurdum fallacy...but this is how I approach what I understand about faith and science and religion...perhaps also in behavior science in marketing and about behavior around me in general....some of what I understand about emotional intelligence and my studies of spirit and faith

Faith...the process of believing in God and believing in higher laws that are mysterious in nature tends to be a absurd process of the rational mind to begin with..." I believe because it is absurd..." Faith, to the christians is a gift from God....."it is not our own doing but a gift from God" as it is written in the book of Romans...Scientists have to have a kind of faith that starts as an assumption then moves on to proof or validation....to me...what is written about Carl Sagan and his quotes, suggests to me,that he is telling us to use the same approach in our faith as well....

Maslow has a theory about motiavation and basic human needs...Its called Maslow hierarchy of basic human needs:

The first of all our needs are survival needs...then safety needs...then social needs and needs to be accepted...then there are needs for self-esteem...Self-accutualization is the last of our basic human needs...BUT SO FEW PEOPLE FIND IT....This passage about faith and the spirit speaks to me what real self-actualization is:

" The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with everyone born of the spirit of God." John 3:8

Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truely I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation, anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to Him." Acts 10:34-35

Carl Sagan was concerned about fanaticism in religions and blind faith:

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accurarcy and reliability of Science?....No other human instution comes close...."
Carl Sagan THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD

" How rigerous the standards of evidence must be if we are really to know something is true; how many false starts and dead ends have plagued human thinking; how our biases can color our interpretation of evidence; how our belief systems widely held and supported by the politcal, religious and academic hierarchies often turn out to be not slightly in error but grotesquely wrong. Everything hinges on the matter of evidence.".....People make mistakes. People play practical jokes. People stretch the truth for money, attention or fame. People occasionally misunderstand what they are seeing. People even see things that aren't there...."

" If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?"

" If we can't think for ourselves, if we're unwilling to question the "authority" ( or the "hierachies" in general).." then we're putty in the hands of those powers...

BUT IF THE CITIZENS ARE EDUCATED and form thir own opinions, then those in power work for us.

In every country, we should be TEACHING OUR CHILDREN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND THE REASONS FOR THE BILL OF RIGHTS...With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit....( In other words, without the values of education and skill developement and healthy behavioral knowledge) ...this may be all that stands between us and enveloping darkness....."


Daniel Goleman had a best selling book out in the 90's called "Emotional Intelligence". Emotional Intelligence is awareness of one's own feelings as they occur. The knowing and understanding of one's emotions is crucial to psychological insight and self understanding ( as well as for developing good assertive skills in life). Our passions, when well exercised, have wisdom to guide our thinking, our values and our survival. Emotional Intelligence includes: compassion and empathy, self discipline and self-control ( this allows us to develope assertive skills) better problem-solving abilites...motivation...THE ARTS OF LISTENING...the ability to inspire others...etc...

" Market forces are re-shaping our worklife and putting a premium on emotional intelligence in the workplace for on the job success."

I think that was what Carl Sagan was meaning about the educated minds...

______

"Science without religion is lame,
Religion without science is blind."
Einstein
_______

" Learning without thought is labor lost;
Thought without learning is perilous."
Confucius
______

When I gaze up at tha stars at night...I am told by science that the light that is coming down to me from those stars is over 10,000 year old....I see that light now...? I wasn't here 10,000 year ago...yet I see that star light...to me that is a great mystery of faith...Einstein and Carl Sagan were scientists that were aware that there are laws of marvelous order and discipline in the universe.... there are processes and concepts ....still yet to be understood and unfold...far ahead of what we are coming out with our knowledge of better behavior management in our culture now....

Einstein also played the violin....music and math are both the universal language...these men were not alone in their genius....and I believe had a faith that we haven't been able to tap into yet....

EINSTEIN"S FAITH...

" His was not a life of prayer and worship. Yet he lived by a deep faith---A FAITH NOT CAPABLE OF RATIONAL FOUNDATION----that there are laws of nature to be discovered, His lifelong pursuit was to discover them. His realism and his optimism are illuminated by this remark: " SUBTLE IS THE LORD, BUT MALICIOUS HE IS NOT."
When asked by a colleague what he meant by that, he replied" " Nature hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but by not by means of ruse."
ALbert Einstein

You appear to be hopeless. None of these men had the beliefs you ascribe to them. Their own words aren't enough - you insist they believed DESPITE what they, themselves, said. Grow up a bit and rejoin the real world. Sagan was an atheist. He believed in NO higher power. That is simply fact. Sorry if you don't like it.

 

[freespirit2001]

You appear to be hopeless. None of these men had the beliefs you ascribe to them. Their own words aren't enough - you insist they believed DESPITE what they, themselves, said. Grow up a bit and rejoin the real world. Sagan was an atheist. He believed in NO higher power. That is simply fact. Sorry if you don't like it.

I saw an IBM commercial last night that had this message, cool and clean:

...." its not the strongest of the species that survives...or the most intelligent...but the one most responsive to change..."
_________



Emotional intelligence judges not " how smart we are (IQ) or our expertise, but how well we handle ourselves and each other"...its a key to analyzing "both our inner competencies that enable us to manage ourselves---ranging from self-awareness to motivation---and essential social strengths such as influence, conflict management and team building"....the author suggests blueprints for use in organizations in his book... business education is up on it as well...

By understanding what emotional intelligence is, you can better discern spiritually and emotionally all the emotional hype and pretense from the social relationships and influences that affect your opinions and your prejudices around you in life...basically in life if you learn good conceptual and interpersonal relationship skills---you basically are more emotionally intelligent and able to make better objective not subjective deductions about behavior around you......


________


Faith, after all, is a gift from God....who are we to say that these men were without knowledge of the God that we know....

_________

a paradox is---"a seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true..." --- " one exhibitng inexplicable or contradictory aspects..."---" an assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on valid deduction from acceptable premises..."---" a statement contrary to recieved opinion..." Its an argument based on a paradox....which many people refuse to understand....I understand the Nicene Creed...but in the end about living a moral life and being in the field of science...I have some personal reservations that aren't based on the social hype...or pretense of religion...:

pretentious-" claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, esp. when unjustified..."

pretense-" the act of pretending: false appearance or action intended to deceive"....

Both scientists are paradoxal when it comes to a stance about faith from "God"...but both have quotes that support more intelligent reasoning in favor of faith and that they did have some kind of faith...and both believed strongly that religion and science were mysteriously connected in some way....

Many people will never know what self-actualization is...they are lost in themselves and the social pretense of blind faith...faith should be actualized and an active process and act in our lives....people can't have that kind of faith if they don't know what self-actualization is....and I feel these scientists both...understood self-actualization....

_______


" The sense of the mysterious stands at the cradle of true art and true science." Albert Einstein

 

[ex-xian]

..I am conscious my arguments for being in favor of the faith of these two scientists may be abit on the absurd and tends to be percieved as a Reducio ad Absurdum fallacy...but this is how I approach what I understand about faith and science and religion...perhaps also in behavior science in marketing and about behavior around me in general....some of what I understand about emotional intelligence and my studies of spirit and faith[/b]

Reducio ad absurdum isn't a fallacy...it's a method of proof.

Here are some quotes by Sagan:
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

But amid much elegance and precision, the details of life and the Universe also exhibit haphazard, jury-rigged arrangements and much poor planning. What shall we make of this: an edifice abandoned early in construction by the architect?
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot

The evidence, so far at least and laws of Nature aside, does not require a Designer. Maybe there is one hiding, maddeningly unwilling to be revealed.
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot

Interviewer: "Didn't [Sagan] want to believe?"
Druyan: "He didn't want to believe. He wanted to know."
-- Ann Druyan (Sagan's widow)

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."
-- Ann Druyan on Sagan's last moments, Epilogue to Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium

Also, check out this, secularhumanism.org/library/shb/smith_13_2.html, it's a description of sagan's memorial service. It opens with, "An atheist's memorial service held in a cathedral?"

Also, remember Sagan's most famous quote..."The Universe is all that there is, that ever was, and ever will be."

 

[freespirit2001]

"Reducio ad absurdum isn't a fallacy...it's a method of proof."

I like how you said that...

.... a fallacy is an error in logic....The Reductio ad Aburdum "unfairly attacks an argument by extending it to such extreme lengths that it looks ridiculous.----- " If we allow developers to build homes in one section of this area, soon we will have no open spaces left. Fresh air and wildlife will be a thing of the past.' 'If we allow the administration to raise tuition this year, soon it will be raising tuition every year, and before we know it only the wealthiest will be able to go to school here.' 'If we allow the village to establish curfew for teen-agers, where will this unwarranted control end? Soon the village authorities will be telling them how to dress, and how to think."---This extension of reasoning doesn't make any sense: Developing one area doesn't necessarily mean the other areas have to be developed; one tuition raise doesn't mean that the others will occur; and a village curfew doesn't mean that more restrictions are in store. Any of these policies may be unfair, but an ad absurdum reasoning doesn't prove it. "


( but alot of times the act or process of faith ---( in religion or in theory testing in science) does seem to got to absurd lengths that credibilty is questionable however)



The Bandwagon Appeal Fallacy...( Argumentum ad Populum)--is based on the dubious notion that, just because many people favor an idea, you should too---( ie: the earth is flat )

The ad Hominem Fallacy---attacks the person arguing instead of the argument---the spaeaker attacks the integrity of the person in oreder to weaken the argument

The "Strawman argument" is ad aburdum---the speaker attacks a potentially valid argument by demolishing a weal example and suggesting that it represents the entire position. *
____________




Another kind of Bandwagon Appeal ( with a twist) was given to me by a business management and marketing science professor...this is not a test of proof:

6 PHASES OF A PROJECT

~ ENTHUSIASM
~ DISILLUSSIONMENT
~ PANIC
~ SEARCH FOR THE GUILTY
~ PUNISHMENT OF THE INNOCENT
~ PRAISE AND HONORS FOR THE NON-PARTICIPANTS

The meaning of this expression goes along with the reasoning of some of Carl Sagan's quotes especially about his reasoning for the need for more education and use of observation in the scientific method in the culture ( religious, corporate, social) from The Demon-Haunted World and can signify the powers of metaphorical dragons in The Dragons of Eden. I like this expression because it is behavior oriented....and its does signify the pretensions and behaviors of corporate culture hierarchies and middle-class politics in the social arena now...." lizard skin " pretensious people.....

_______________




Carl Sagan has other tests for fallacies on his web site:
www.Carl Sagan.com
"THE BALONEY DETECTION KIT"

The Baloney Detection Kit has the scientific method included in it as well as another list of " interesting methods of proof"...its the basic "scientific method" ( that is also used in my marketing class about market science and concept testing...) but it has a few more creative twists....

___________



I think I made a good point about human needs and motivation from Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Not many people are aware they have need higher than the need for recognition and social acceptance.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:

(lowest need to highest need)
~ Survival
~ Safety
~ Social acceptance
~ Self-Esteem
~ Self-Actualization

We all need self-actualization according to Maslow, to find our human completeness.....self-actualization is a key about human growth and its on the top of the list---the last of all our needs...To me it means where an individual's stands with their social and spiritual growth and consciousness....and if they are finding fulfillment in this life or not....realizing we all have a need to dream and realize our dreams in this life is a key of self-actualization...we all have a need to find a greater purpose why we are here and what we are here for.... and to find our destiny in life....and perhaps (self-)actualization in our faith with God as well......

I'm making the point not many people are aware of this need for self-actualization and it's a part of all our basic human needs....Its a key about healthy social behaviors and social awareness in groups and teams...etc...

__________________

I think both scientists we're aware of the social behaviors around them as humanistic scientists....humanistic/secular

" Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability as science?...No other human institute comes close..."
Carl Sagan



*Understanding Human Communication Ronald B. Adler, George Rodman

 

[ex-xian]

"Reducio ad absurdum isn't a fallacy...it's a method of proof."

I like how you said that... that's true....

.... a fallacy is an error in logic....The Reductio ad Aburdum is a fallacy that unfairly attacks someones assumption or opinion in an argument by extending it to such extreme lengths that it looks ridiculous....its by an extension of reasoning that doesn't make sense..(ie...this religion must have miracles in them...so all religions (per se) must have miracles too is an example of the reductio ad aburdum...)

No, that's called attacking a strawman. Reducio ad absurdum is assuming opposite of what you want to prove, reaching a contradiction and thus, because of the law of the excluded middle, you have proved the original theorem. Trust me, I use this proof method all the time in my upper division math and philosophy classes.

As for the rest of your post, it seems like meaningless rambling with nothing whatsoever to do with the OP, so I'll just ignore it.

 

[freespirit2001]

Alot of people get defensive when ideas are being shared about issues of faith...concerns about authority... and ideas or concepts that touch on insight into behaviors of people ( and the social norm ) and basic human needs....many people are not aware of their need for good self-esteem and have no clue what self-actualization is for their own lives...and it does affect their reasoning and how or if they are going to respond or react to change or different kinds of information or their own personal differences of opinion. Its your choice and principle to make judgement on the matter...

Personally, I'm behavior oriented about my perception of life around me and usually hear people out without making snap judgements about mere ideas...

The "norm" is what interests me the most.

 

[freespirit2001]

"Those who know the Truth are not equal to those who love it." Confucius

"Time discovers the Truth" Seneca

" The language of Truth is always unadorned and simple." Marcellius Ammianus

" Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge in the field of Truth and Knowledge will be shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." Albert Einstein

 

[Nathan Poe]

This reminds of an online conversation I had a few years ago with some young chap, fresh from a witness rally trying to tell me Einstein was a Christian...

<snip>

What did he say when you told him that Einstein was a Jew (non-practicing, of course)?

 

[freespirit2001]

I love your offerings Nathan Poe...(!)....What's out there, of course, is a lot of "lizard-skinned" authorities....on the bamboozle...

***Foolsparade:

" The Interval between the events are more signicant than the events themselves." Albert Einstein

____________


I think of the movie CONTACT, how Carl Sagan, has Ellie with a drawing she made of a picture of the Lauderdale ocean shore as a child----and later in her visitation with aliens---the alien is in the image of her father----she actually visits that other ocean shore....That is so poignant to me! There are some spiritual songs about "when we reach the other shore"...and the many people I have read about dream interpretation suggest that dreams of walking along the ocean are symbolic of deep religious feelings and longings and signifies peak spiritual esctacy...that that symbol of the ocean is deeply intertwined in our subconscious as forever being a strong spiritual symbol and a deep unexplainable spiritual longing for higher values and truth....

I wish there were more studies about "that other shore" and how we could reach it in knowledge and awareness...there are other poets and philosophers and artists that have rendered great works of the ocean...reflections on the ocean are deeply spiritual.....

_______

Walt Whitman, Henri Thoreau...to name a few...artists as well....

_______


My Life Is Like a Stroll Upon the Beach Henri Thoreau

My life is like a stroll upon the beach,
As near the ocean's edge as I can go;
My tardy steps its waves sometimes o'erreach,
Sometimes I stay to let them overflow.

My sole employment 'tis, and scrupilous care,
To place my gains beyond the reach of tides,
Each smoother pebble, and each shell more rare,
Which Ocean kindly to my hand confides.

I have but few companions on the shore;
They scorn the strand who sail upon the sea;
Yet oft I think the ocean they're sailed o'er
Is deeper known upon the strand to me.

The middle sea contains no crimson dulse,
Its deeper waves cast up no pearls to view;
Alone the shore my hand is on the pulse,
And I converse with many a shipwrecked crew."

___________


" The Interval between the events are more significant than the events themselves." ----Albert Einstein

In the movies Contact, if the authorities hadn't covered up the fact that 18 hours of the instruments tape had run coinciding with Ellie's visitation...if they had only listened to Einstein about that very fact about the "significance about interval between events"...the movie would have ended differerently....the tape was the proof ......

___________


" The goal of fasting is inner unity. This means hearing but not with the ear; hearing, but not with the understanding; it is hearing with the spirit, with your whole being. The hearing that is only of the ears is one thing. The hearing of the understanding is another. But the hearing of the spirit is not limited to any one faculuty, to the ear, or to the mind. Hence, it demands the emptiness of the faculties. And when the faculties are empty, then the whole being listens. There is a direct grasp of what is right before you that can never be heard with the ear or understood with the mind. Fasting of the heart empties the faculties, frees you from limitations and preoccupations."
_____Thomas Merton, The Living Bread

 

[Eru]

Freespirit, your posts are incoherent, nonsensical, and just plain wrong. One minute your quoting Confucius, the next you're bashing atheists. Sagan said himself that he was atheist, he practically screamed it from the mountain tops and you still deny it. This brings me to the conclusion that you are absolutely insane and obviously know nothing, not even a shard, of what you are talking about.

I don't think I've ever seen anythin more absurd than your posts here.

 

[freespirit2001]

USING EMPTINESS Lao Tze

" If the greatest achievement is incomplete,
Then its usefulness is unimpaired.
If the greatest fullness is empty,
Then its usefulness is inexhaustible.

The greatest directness is flexible.
The greatest skillfulness is awkward.
The greatest eloquence is hesitant.

Agitation triumphs over the cold.
Stillness triumphs over the heated.
Clarity and stillness bring order to the world. "

______________


USING POLARITY Lao Tze


" When all the world knows Beauty as Beauty,
There is ugliness.
When all the world knows Good as Good,
There is evil.

In this way:
Existence and nonexistence produce each other,
Difficult and easy complete each other,
Long and short contrast each other,
High and low attract each other,
Pitch and tune harmonize each other,
Future and past follow each other.

Therefore, Intelligent Individuals:
Hold their position without effort,
Practice their philosophy* without words,
Are a part of all things and overlook nothing,
They produce---but do not possess,
Act without expectation,
Succeed without taking credit.

Since, indeed, they do not take credit,
It remains with them."

(* philosophy and religion )


__________________


SELF-MASTERY Lao Tze


Those who know others are Intelligent;
Those who know themselves have Insight.
Those who master others have Force.
Those who master themselves have Strength.

Those who know what is enough are Wealthy;
Those who perservere have Direction.
Those who maintain their position Endure.
And those who die and yet do not perish,

Live on."


_________________

 

[lucaspa]

I feel in his series Cosmos...he made science and knowledge of the stars so wonderful and exciting too...

Why be so judgemenatal about judging Carl Sagan by your standards of religion ?..or judging a man because he is a scientist or great spokesperson by the standards of the religion of your times.

Sorry, but I am being judgemental as a scientist. That Sagan was an atheist I don't care about. That he mistakenly portrayed science as atheism I am outraged over. Notice I am just as outraged when Christian creationists portray science as Christian. It's the violation of science that I am judgemental over.

He encouraged us all to ask more questions in life and to use better intelligence with our reasoning abilities, including those about our own faith in God.

The first part is accurate, the second is not. What Sagan did was have you only use your reasoning ability to question faith in God. He never had you use your reasoning ability to question atheism and the arguments for it.

Would I be an atheist if I said he also inspired my dreams? and my artwork as well?

No. You are an atheist if you believe deity does not exist.

As I said, Sagan was superb at making science interesting. But he could have done that and still kept the agnostic nature of science instead of 1) portraying science as backing atheism and 2) trying to turn science into a religion. That last also outrages me, too. Again, because of the violence to science. Doing that destroys science.

 

[lucaspa]

Being able to discern an emotional opinion or judgemental outlook from one based on reason and accurate information is what Carl Sagan was suggesting to me in his work....

And that is the irony of Sagan. For Sagan, using reason and accurate information to discern an emotional opinion or judgemental outlook applied only to theism. He never used it on his own atheism to find his own emotional opinions and judgemental outlooks. That is where Lewontin made fun of him with the "two's company but three is a crowd" over Sagan's acceptance of the duality of light but his emotional, judgemental rejection of Trinity.

I find that this is a characteristic of many atheists. "Critical thinking" and "reason" are to be used only on someone else's position, not your own.

" The ultimate test of what a truth means is the conduct it dictates or inspires." William James

" Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth---more than ruin, even more than death." Bertrand Russell

Again, more irony. James is repeating the "bear fruits" argument in the NT. Russell feared and avoided thought on many of his own positions.

 

[lucaspa]

Alot of great Carl Sagan and science quotes would have to be found on a POSITIVE ATHEIST website...They have to dress up the atheist word with "Positive"---Atheist.

I agree with Nathan. Atheist is not a dirty word. It is simply a different faith from theism. The use of "positive" is done because some atheists have not thought thru their position and think that they can be "weak" atheists and say they have no faith instead of having the faith they do.

..I still feel there are higher reasons for this, from an intelligent spiritual point of view that still favors faith through all my reasoning.....I'm not giving up that Carl Sagan had to have some kind of faith....and I'm hoping to keep objective reasoning and discerning insight about my views..

Of course Sagan had faith; he was an atheist. That was his faith. What he had faith in was that a supernatural being -- deity -- does not exist. As part of that he had faith that the material universe is all that there is. He also had faith that science could provide the basis for ethical, moral, and spiritual answers as well as answers to how the physical universe works. However, you are not looking at that kind of faith. What you want to find is an indication that Sagan had faith in a deity. He did not.

 

[lucaspa]

Faith...the process of believing in God and believing in higher laws that are mysterious in nature tends to be a absurd process of the rational mind to begin with.

I disagree. Many very rational people have believed in the existence of a deity. It all depends on what data you have to go on. If you have personal experience of deity, then faith is very rational. For instance, for Doubting Thomas, it would have been irrational for him not to have believed in a risen Jesus. His personal experience was overwhelming. For someone living now who does not share Thomas' experience and when that experience is buried in the past, it is still rational to believe, but it is also rational to doubt that the account of Thomas' experience is accurate. After all, Thomas' experience is not our experience.

Scientists have to have a kind of faith that starts as an assumption then moves on to proof or validation.

That's not how science works. Science starts with a hypothesis, and then moves on to testing in an attempt to falsify. Science is not faith because the observations that test the hypothesis are available to everyone, unlike Thomas' experience of the nailholes.

what is written about Carl Sagan and his quotes, suggests to me,that he is telling us to use the same approach in our faith as well.

Sagan didn't accept the personal experience as valid. I agree that Sagan was urging the same approach you outlined, but because he was biasing the data he accepted, he was guaranteeing that you would come to atheism.

Carl Sagan was concerned about fanaticism in religions and blind faith:

Yes, he was. But what he should have been concerned about is not fanaticism in religion but fanaticism period. And the problem, of course, is that Sagan never told anyone that atheism is also a faith. So it was exempted, wrongly, from what we should be concerned about.

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accurarcy and reliability of Science?....No other human instution comes close...."
Carl Sagan THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD

And yet Sagan ignores that 99.999% of all scientific theories are wrong! This is what Lewontin takes him to task for in his review of the book. Sagan is touting the reliability of science over religion without critically evaluating the reliability of science in this context!

" How rigerous the standards of evidence must be if we are really to know something is true; how many false starts and dead ends have plagued human thinking; how our biases can color our interpretation of evidence; how our belief systems widely held and supported by the politcal, religious and academic hierarchies often turn out to be not slightly in error but grotesquely wrong. Everything hinges on the matter of evidence.".....People make mistakes. People play practical jokes. People stretch the truth for money, attention or fame. People occasionally misunderstand what they are seeing. People even see things that aren't there...."

And again science is also littered with these. But Sagan seems to forget Lovell's and other astronomer's seeing canals on Mars! Or Einstein seeing determinism in quantum mechanics! Yes, science is our most reliable form of knowledge, but that is largely because science is a limited form of knowledge. Sagan forgets about that limited part.

" If we can't think for ourselves, if we're unwilling to question the "authority" ( or the "hierachies" in general).." then we're putty in the hands of those powers...

And yet Sagan wanted all of us to accept nuclear winter on his say so! Irony meter pegs again.

In every country, we should be TEACHING OUR CHILDREN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND THE REASONS FOR THE BILL OF RIGHTS...With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit....( In other words, without the values of education and skill developement and healthy behavioral knowledge) ...this may be all that stands between us and enveloping darkness....."

I heartily agree. But I want that method applied just as equally to atheism as theism. What Sagan missed is that the scientific method is not just for one side of a position. What also needs to be taught are the limits of the scientific method. It's not universal. Nor is science universal. Most of human existence lies outside science, and that has to be taught as well. What also needs to be taught is what Gould said:

"Scientists have power by virtue of the respect commanded by the discipline. We may therefore be sorely tempted to misuse that power in furthering a personal prejudice or social goal-why not provide that extra oomph by extending the umbrella of science over a personal preference in ethics or politics? But we cannot, lest we lose the very respect hat tempted us in the first place.
If this plea sounds like the conservative and pessimistic retrenching of a man on the verge of middle age, I reply that I advocate this care and restraint in order to demonstrate the enormous power of science. We live with poets and politicians, preachers and philosophers. All have their ways of knowing, and all are valid in their proper domains. The world is too complex and interesting for one way to hold all the answers." Stephen Jay Gould in the essay "William Jennings Bryan's last campaign" in Bully for Brontosaurus, 1991, pp. 429-430.

I think that was what Carl Sagan was meaning about the educated minds...

______

"Science without religion is lame,
Religion without science is blind."
Einstein

And yet Demon Haunted Woodland is a refutation of this. Sagan thought science doesn't need religion at all.
_______

When I gaze up at tha stars at night...I am told by science that the light that is coming down to me from those stars is over 10,000 year old....I see that light now...? I wasn't here 10,000 year ago...yet I see that star light...to me that is a great mystery of faith.

It may be a source of wonderment, but why in the world would it be a "mystery of faith"?

EINSTEIN"S FAITH...

" His was not a life of prayer and worship. Yet he lived by a deep faith---A FAITH NOT CAPABLE OF RATIONAL FOUNDATION----that there are laws of nature to be discovered, His lifelong pursuit was to discover them. His realism and his optimism are illuminated by this remark: " SUBTLE IS THE LORD, BUT MALICIOUS HE IS NOT."
When asked by a colleague what he meant by that, he replied" " Nature hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but by not by means of ruse."
ALbert Einstein

Be careful of trying to figure out Einstein's faith. He was a great physicist but a really rotten theologian. If you sift thru his writings you can find just about a statement for any faith position you care to advocate -- including rejection of all faith.