Works authenticate faith

[EastCoastRemnant]

Ok, that makes sense to me - could there be a danger in elevating the Sabbath.....
...To such a degree Christ plays 3rd chair to it?

How does Jesus play a third chair? The term God encompasses the persons of the Father and of the Son.

...It's just that I've never heard any Priest make a public prayer thanking God for Sunday.

That would be because it was never instituted, sanctified and made Holy by God.

Nor am I asking you to defend it - that's not my place here at all...

...I only wanted to understand why the SDA Church sign down the street says Saturday Worship.
...And why everyone says 'happy sabbath' and offers prayers thanking God for the Sabbath.
...And not a mention of Christ? It just seemed like honoring the created over the creator.

We celebrate the Sabbath as it is God's seal of being the creator of all things, we do not worship it...
I'm sure the Jews had special greetings they used when gathering for the feasts...
When you attend a birthday celebration, do you not say 'Happy Birthday'... who is your celebration in honour of? The actual day of birth or of the person that was born?

Happy Sabbath btw...

 

[Pythons]

How does Jesus play a third chair?

I'm not saying He does I'm only suggesting that if an individual spent 90% of the day they dedicate to worship...
....Watching t.v. - it would be logical to assume t.v. occupied a higher priority in their liturgical pyramid.
....I'm not suggesting SDA's are in error for giving Latria to Saturday in the SDA forum.
...I'm only saying my observation precluded Hyperdulia.
...The mechanics of why I've read this the wrong way would be appreciated.

The term God encompasses the persons of the Father and of the Son.

& "the Person" OF "The Holy Spirit"....
...Therefore it would seem logical that God would get Latria.
...And the highest the Sabbath would get would be hyperdulia.
...If every prayer offered in public 1st thanks God for the Sabbath.
...It would appear on the importance scale the positions of the Sabbath and Christ are pre-determined.
...Only I never heard a public prayer offered whereas God was thanked for Christ at any point in the prayer.

That would be because it was never instituted, sanctified and made Holy by God.

Ok, I can't answer that here due to the way I understand the rules...
...Perhaps a short adventure in GT might shed some light on your affirmation.

We celebrate the Sabbath as it is God's seal of being the creator of all things, we do not worship it...
I'm sure the Jews had special greetings they used when gathering for the feasts...
When you attend a birthday celebration, do you not say 'Happy Birthday'... who is your celebration in honour of? The actual day of birth or of the person that was born?

Happy Sabbath btw...

Perhaps you've just hit the nail on the head and this is where I've been getting mixed up....
...I've always understood Christian Mass.
...As the worship of God in celebration of Christ's death.
...Which provided salvation to humanity.

1st John 3,8; He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

i.e.

"Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honour is yours Almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen".

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

&

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

perhaps the whole thing can be boiled down to a difference of views...
...Perhaps SDA's believe as Ellen White taught that Christ came to vindicate God's law.
...And because Christ "was able" to pull it off.
...Salvation was the by-product of Christ's success in His attempt ( which could have failed ).
...To vindicate God's law.

By some theological mechanism God's character became sullied by Satan's sin...
...Therefore since the law of God is understood by SDA to reflect God's Character.
...The law or God's character required that it ( He ) be "vindicated".
...Therefore the purpose of Christ in coming to earth was to vindicate God.
...Of which the Sabbath was the most important part of God since the Sabbath.
...Is the most important part of the law.

Therefore on Saturday God is thanked for the Sabbath 20/1 over God being thanked for Christ...
...Because God's character being sullied was the reason Christ came to earth.
...Therefore it's not that SDA's worship the Sabbath it's just that they realize the Sabbath was the goal.
...It was the most important part of God's character.
...So SDA's simply celebrate that and part of the celebration is making prayers which thank God for the Sabbath.

Is that right?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

perhaps the whole thing can be boiled down to a difference of views...
...Perhaps SDA's believe as Ellen White taught that Christ came to vindicate God's law.
...And because Christ "was able" to pull it off.
...Salvation was the by-product of Christ's success in His attempt ( which could have failed ).
...To vindicate God's law.

By some theological mechanism God's character became sullied by Satan's sin...
...Therefore since the law of God is understood by SDA to reflect God's Character.
...The law or God's character required that it ( He ) be "vindicated".
...Therefore the purpose of Christ in coming to earth was to vindicate God.
...Of which the Sabbath was the most important part of God since the Sabbath.
...Is the most important part of the law.

Therefore on Saturday God is thanked for the Sabbath 20/1 over God being thanked for Christ...
...Because God's character being sullied was the reason Christ came to earth.
...Therefore it's not that SDA's worship the Sabbath it's just that they realize the Sabbath was the goal.
...It was the most important part of God's character.
...So SDA's simply celebrate that and part of the celebration is making prayers which thank God for the Sabbath.

Is that right?

You are partially correct in your summation. It's not so much that God's Law needed to be vindicated as God's character of love needed to be made known to overcome the results of sin. While the Law is a reflection of God's character, the full understanding of what the Law is about was not understood by the Jews, therefore Jesus came to make it understood and to fulfill the plan of redemption. I would suggest you watch the video I posted to get a clearer understanding of what I'm saying.

The Sabbath does not hold anymore nor any less weight than the rest of the Law, it's just that it's the one Commandment that is the most misunderstood and therefore broken. Adventism today is not doing a good job of spreading this understanding as, I believe, most Adventists don't truly understand it themselves. We have become fixated on the Sabbath, the health and dress reforms and have completely missed the boat on the underlying truth that encompasses it all. We have almost become like the Pharisees (trads) and Sadducees (progs) and have completely overlooked God's character and missed the truth of the Word and inspiration. We have become a people of rules that rival the Jews in Jesus' day and we need a reformation of the true meaning of God's character and the Law and why it's in effect. We need to abandon our progessive mindset and raise up the old waste places and be repairers of the breach.

 

[Pythons]

You are partially correct in your summation. It's not so much that God's Law needed to be vindicated as God's character of love needed to be made known to overcome the results of sin.

Where do you find that teaching in your demoninations tradition or Scripture?
...I generated my premise from word search results for vindicated, vindicate on the EGW Estate and G.C.A.

Christ did not come to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He did not come to lessen the law of God in one particular. He came to express in His own person the love of God. He came to vindicate every precept of the holy law.--Ms 145, 1897, p. 4

He came to vindicate his Father's law and make it honorable. The Sabbath, instead of being the blessing it was designed to be, had become a curse through the added requirements of the Jews. Jesus wished to rid it of these incumbrances and leave it standing upon its own holy dignity. {3Red 24.3}

Christ came to vindicate the sacred claims of the law. He came to live a life of obedience to its requirements and thus prove the falsity of the charge made by Satan that it is impossible for man to keep the law of God.

And the evil that existed in the Jewish nation is apparent today. The salt has lost its savor. The very ones who condemn and despise the Jewish nation because they refused to see in Christ all the specifications of prophecy, are in a similar deception. They have nailed to the cross the law of God, which made a necessity the gift of God's Son to the world. They have crucified the law of God, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. But all who thus claim to accept Christ and yet refuse to obey the law which Christ came to vindicate, place themselves in a position similar to that of the man who began to build, and was not able to finish[/COLOR]. {ST, July 28, 1898 par. 12}

Where in Scripture or your denominations tradition is the teaching found that says....
...Satan charged it was impossible to keep God's law?
...For some reason I always thought it was impossible to perfectly keep God's law.
...Which was the reason for Christ - God was the ONLY one who could save us.
...We are saved; "in Him, with Him, through Him in the unity of the Holy Spirit".

The law being every requirement of "the law" defaults into the impossibility of us being able to save ourselves...
...Which appears to reflect why Jesus chose us "in Him" prior to the world being created.

Isaiah 64,6:
"Thou hast met him that rejoiceth, and doth justice: in thy ways they shall remember thee: behold thou art angry, and we have sinned: in them we have been always, and we shall be saved. And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman: and we have all fallen as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon thy name: that riseth up, and taketh hold of thee: thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast crushed us in the hand of our iniquity".

It's been my understanding that this has been the state of man since Adam & Eve sinned...
...And we "work with" or co-operate with the Graces God gives us.
...I.e faith w/out works is dead faith.
...The Ultimite Grace God gave the world was/is His Son, Jesus.

In every case I could find it's God who vindicates His people......
...I'm trying to get my mind around the concept that God needed to be "vindicated".
...And that in some way how Satan saying God's law was impossible.
...Required that God's law needed to be vindicated?
...The concept is alien to my current understanding.
...I would like to know how that concept was developed within Adventism.
...And how that concept would alter how one interprets Scripture.

While the Law is a reflection of God's character, the full understanding of what the Law is about was not understood by the Jews, therefore Jesus came to make it understood and to fulfill the plan of redemption. I would suggest you watch the video I posted to get a clearer understanding of what I'm saying.

Ok, I will watch the video ECR - I could agree with most of what you said above already.....
...I'm still not getting where you draw out that God's law was sullied by Satan.
...And it was the law ( & not humanity ) that needed to be vindicated?

The Sabbath does not hold anymore nor any less weight than the rest of the Law, it's just that it's the one Commandment that is the most misunderstood and therefore broken.

What about all the other "commandments" SDA's and other Christians of other denoms including mine 'break'?
...This is the other thing I'm not getting?

Adventism today is not doing a good job of spreading this understanding as, I believe, most Adventists don't truly understand it themselves. We have become fixated on the Sabbath, the health and dress reforms and have completely missed the boat on the underlying truth that encompasses it all.

What do you mean by dress reform? I know what you mean by the sabbath and not eating shrimp.

We have almost become like the Pharisees (trads) and Sadducees (progs) and have completely overlooked God's character and missed the truth of the Word and inspiration. We have become a people of rules that rival the Jews in Jesus' day and we need a reformation of the true meaning of God's character and the Law and why it's in effect. We need to abandon our progessive mindset and raise up the old waste places and be repairers of the breach.

What you said applies to all Christians in every Church that ever existed....
....Both the Prodigal Son and the brother who stayed home were "equally lost".
...For exactly the point you just made above.

The following Prot Pastor IMHO absolutely NAILED this parable...
...I would highly suggest his book wich bears the same name.

YouTube - The Prodigal God Promo

I appreciate your time ECR - you seem to be able to talk about these issues w/out freaking out....
...And reverting to simple proof texts.
...It's not going un-noticed.

 

[ricker]

The Sabbath does not hold anymore nor any less weight than the rest of the Law, it's just that it's the one Commandment that is the most misunderstood and therefore broken.

In my experience the command to not take God's name in vain is violated much, much more by the average person than the Sabbath command is. (Lots of people don't work Saturdays, including me, although I work Sundays.) Just an observation, not meant for any particular debate.

 

[Pythons]

I watched "the herb video" and there was some things I could agree with...
...However after saying that there was some very serious error within it also.

 

[k4c]

I watched "the herb video" and there was some things I could agree with...
...However after saying that there was some very serious error within it also.

Very serious errors??? WOW!!!

I'd bet you say the same if Jesus was teaching.

 

[Pythons]

Very serious errors??? WOW!!!

I'd bet you say the same if Jesus was teaching.

And I'd bet you would be wrong because Jesus did teach...
...And I accepted those teachings.

 

[k4c]

And I'd bet you would be wrong because Jesus did teach...
...And I accepted those teachings.

Do you?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Where do you find that teaching in your demoninations tradition or Scripture?
...I generated my premise from word search results for vindicated, vindicate on the EGW Estate and G.C.A.

It not that God's Law doesn't need to be vindicated, but not the Law the way it had been understood... eg: you obey or you die. The Law in the context of reflecting God's character is what it truly represents... eg: you obey because you love. See the difference.

Where in Scripture or your denominations tradition is the teaching found that says....
...Satan charged it was impossible to keep God's law?

To keep God's Law is to live righteously in faith. The story of Job is a good place to start.

...For some reason I always thought it was impossible to perfectly keep God's law.
...Which was the reason for Christ - God was the ONLY one who could save us.
...We are saved; "in Him, with Him, through Him in the unity of the Holy Spirit".

We are indeed saved through Christ alone but we are perfected through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I appreciate your time ECR - you seem to be able to talk about these issues w/out freaking out....
...And reverting to simple proof texts.
...It's not going un-noticed.

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

 

[Pythons]

It not that God's Law doesn't need to be vindicated, but not the Law the way it had been understood... eg: you obey or you die. The Law in the context of reflecting God's character is what it truly represents... eg: you obey because you love. See the difference.




To keep God's Law is to live righteously in faith. The story of Job is a good place to start.



We are indeed saved through Christ alone but we are perfected through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.




Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

I understand that part of it ECR, the part I don't get.....
...It's the point of the video that the ONLY change in the law.
...Was observing it because a person wanted to vs. had to.
...Why don't SDA's observe all the commandments then?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I understand that part of it ECR, the part I don't get.....
...It's the point of the video that the ONLY change in the law.
...Was observing it because a person wanted to vs. had to.
...Why don't SDA's observe all the commandments then?

You'll have to clarify... what Commandments don't we keep? Remember, there is a difference between Commandments and ordinances or statutes...

 

[Princessdi]

I am going to give this SDA church the benefit of the doubt and say that they only mean to inform passersby that they conduct worship services on Saturday, and not that they literally worship the day. I do this from almost 53 years in teh SDA church and the fact that we do at the very least give lip service to the fact that we worship the God of the Sabbath and not the ritual sabbath day. Unfortunately, our actions, and often times our words, do not bare this out. Speaking of which...........

Kira.......

faith is dead without Sabbath-keeping.

....this statement does not help. They are easily condtradicted from the Bible itself, and we lose credibility as the witnesses(with a special message for the world) we claim to be.

People have faith in God and don't keep the Sabbath. Faith is part of the sanctification process. Abraham had faith to follow God when he did not know God, and we have no proof that he ever kept the Sabbath. In fact from the time of Creation when 7th day rest by God is mentioned, it is never mentioned again from Adam and Eve through to the when the COI were given the 10C. Now, it does fit nicely into our[SDA] doctrinal theology, but to my knowledge, there is no biblical text to support it. Now, I consider discussions here teachable moments, so if any one can posts Bible text{ONLY!!) to constradict my statement, then I will have learned something new today.

FOR THE RECORD, I personally am convicted of the fact that the 7th dya of the week, Saturday, is the Sabbath of the Bible. I am so because of my love relationship with Christ. I also believe that we will be held responsible only for those things for which we are convicted and not just imformed.

You all are all over several threads arguing the validity and salvific value of the 7th day Sabbath doctrine, text against text from the self same Bible, and getting absolutely nowhere. Once again I asked, how is God getting any glory from that?

No, the honor I give to Mary does not hold a candle to the worship SDAism gives to the Sabbath...
...It almost appears as if Seventh-day Adventism worships the Sabbath.
...In fact the SDA Church down the street from where I live has "Saturday Worship" right on the reader board.
...Does that mean what it says or not?

 

[Pythons]

You'll have to clarify... what Commandments don't we keep? Remember, there is a difference between Commandments and ordinances or statutes...

There is no separation, they were all Mitzvot ( plural ) therefore the commandment of honoring one's parents...
...Was correctly observed by following the statutes or ordinances.
...Specific to that Mitzvah.

The Mitzvah ( singular commandment ) about honoring God...
...Was only properly observed by following the statutes or ordinances.
...Specific to that Mitzvah.

Mitzvah = singular commandment such as not to lie, steal, etc....
...Mitzvot = plural = ALL the commandments.
...The Mitzvah of the Sabbath was only properly observed by following the ordinances or statutes of that mitzvah.

Do you see what I mean here? The video says that the only thing about the law that changed...
...Was that since Christ it was no longer "imposed".
...Instead, the law is now "intrinsic".
...Instead of "having to" people "want to".

I think the analogy that was used is that a child of 4 has it IMPOSED on them....
...To NOT touch a hot stove.
...While that same law would be intrinsic to a person of 35.
...Because a 35 year old sees the value of that "rule".
...And a child does not understand it.

I can see and appreciate the point the video makes......
...However it makes a huge illogical leap when it confounds the law.
...And suggests that the ten commandments were a law unto themselves.
...Which was an alien concept to Christ as well as any other Jew.
...And in fact it still is an alien concept.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

There is no separation, they were all Mitzvot ( plural ) therefore the commandment of honoring one's parents...
...Was correctly observed by following the statutes or ordinances.
...Specific to that Mitzvah.

The Mitzvah ( singular commandment ) about honoring God...
...Was only properly observed by following the statutes or ordinances.
...Specific to that Mitzvah.

Mitzvah = singular commandment such as not to lie, steal, etc....
...Mitzvot = plural = ALL the commandments.
...The Mitzvah of the Sabbath was only properly observed by following the ordinances or statutes of that mitzvah.

Do you see what I mean here? The video says that the only thing about the law that changed...
...Was that since Christ it was no longer "imposed".
...Instead, the law is now "intrinsic".
...Instead of "having to" people "want to".

I think the analogy that was used is that a child of 4 has it IMPOSED on them....
...To NOT touch a hot stove.
...While that same law would be intrinsic to a person of 35.
...Because a 35 year old sees the value of that "rule".
...And a child does not understand it.

I can see and appreciate the point the video makes......
...However it makes a huge illogical leap when it confounds the law.
...And suggests that the ten commandments were a law unto themselves.
...Which was an alien concept to Christ as well as any other Jew.
...And in fact it still is an alien concept.

The Bible clearly seperates the giving of the Ten Commandments from the giving of the statutes and judgements. The covenant was attached to the Decalogue.

Deut 4:13,14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


Yes the old covenant was done away with... the imposed method of obedience. The new covenant was taught in the intrinsic model... but both were based upon the Ten Commandments.

Look at it this way... we have an agreement (covenant) between us for a car I sold to you. Part of that contract was a lease agreement. Because of difficulties in this arrangement, I give you a new agreement for a purchase agreement. Different contract.... SAME CAR.

 

[Pythons]

The Bible clearly seperates the giving of the Ten Commandments from the giving of the statutes and judgements. The covenant was attached to the Decalogue.

Deut 4:13,14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


Yes the old covenant was done away with... the imposed method of obedience. The new covenant was taught in the intrinsic model... but both were based upon the Ten Commandments.

Look at it this way... we have an agreement (covenant) between us for a car I sold to you. Part of that contract was a lease agreement. Because of difficulties in this arrangement, I give you a new agreement for a purchase agreement. Different contract.... SAME CAR.

How do you explain the following Scriptures?

Deut 5,1
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Eze 20,16
Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Lev 19,19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

20And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
21And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
22And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
23And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
24But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.
25And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.
26Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
27Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
29Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
30Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
31Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
32Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.
33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
35Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
36Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt. 37Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD

It's a law or commandment in the United States that an individual pays taxes...
...When and how one pays their taxes is determined by the statutes and ordinances.
...In other words an individual can't claim they are "following the law".
...If they reject a statute specific to that law.

How do you determine which statutes and ordinances you retain and which ones you reject?
...The commandment that one honors God.
...Is meaningless w/out the statutes and ordinances of "how" & "when" you honor God.

If the law is "same car" why does it not look or operate the same way?

Perhaps you could help me see where the Scriptures say commandments have meaning....
...Apart from the specific way one is to observe the commandment.
...I'm not debating against you I'm just saying this concept is alien.
...To both the historic Jewish and Christian traditions.
...It's also alien to basic law in any socitey that has ever existed.
...Where is it that you are coming up with this concept?

 

[Cribstyl]

I am going to give this SDA church the benefit of the doubt and say that they only mean to inform passersby that they conduct worship services on Saturday, and not that they literally worship the day. I do this from almost 53 years in teh SDA church and the fact that we do at the very least give lip service to the fact that we worship the God of the Sabbath and not the ritual sabbath day. Unfortunately, our actions, and often times our words, do not bare this out. Speaking of which...........

Kira.......



....this statement does not help. They are easily condtradicted from the Bible itself, and we lose credibility as the witnesses(with a special message for the world) we claim to be.

People have faith in God and don't keep the Sabbath. Faith is part of the sanctification process. Abraham had faith to follow God when he did not know God, and we have no proof that he ever kept the Sabbath. In fact from the time of Creation when 7th day rest by God is mentioned, it is never mentioned again from Adam and Eve through to the when the COI were given the 10C. Now, it does fit nicely into our[SDA] doctrinal theology, but to my knowledge, there is no biblical text to support it. Now, I consider discussions here teachable moments, so if any one can posts Bible text{ONLY!!) to constradict my statement, then I will have learned something new today.

FOR THE RECORD, I personally am convicted of the fact that the 7th dya of the week, Saturday, is the Sabbath of the Bible. I am so because of my love relationship with Christ. I also believe that we will be held responsible only for those things for which we are convicted and not just imformed.

You all are all over several threads arguing the validity and salvific value of the 7th day Sabbath doctrine, text against text from the self same Bible, and getting absolutely nowhere. Once again I asked, how is God getting any glory from that?

Impressive...... from the heart of a humble servant of God. (sorry i'm Pentecostal what do you expect )

What I find is when anyone try to examine other ways to apply the word of God to understanding, the questions and answers bring us back to the ususal topics.

 

[Cribstyl]

The Bible clearly seperates the giving of the Ten Commandments from the giving of the statutes and judgements. The covenant was attached to the Decalogue.

Deut 4:13,14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


Yes the old covenant was done away with... the imposed method of obedience. The new covenant was taught in the intrinsic model... but both were based upon the Ten Commandments.

Look at it this way... we have an agreement (covenant) between us for a car I sold to you. Part of that contract was a lease agreement. Because of difficulties in this arrangement, I give you a new agreement for a purchase agreement. Different contract.... SAME CAR.

If anything you just proved that the ten commandments was the actual the words of the Old covenant. That's why the 4th commandment is the sign of the covenant.

The ESV version says....
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice.

13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, [fn2] and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and rules, that you might do them in the land that you are going over to possess.




ECR, I do understand that you just wanted to point to what is called the statutes and judgments.
What if you find out that the same 10 commandments are also listed within the statutes and ordinances? Oh! Python is pointing that out in his post.

Now you know why some people dont post text with their comments The truth comes to light.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's a law or commandment in the United States that an individual pays taxes...
...When and how one pays their taxes is determined by the statutes and ordinances.
...In other words an individual can't claim they are "following the law".
...If they reject a statute specific to that law.

How do you determine which statutes and ordinances you retain and which ones you reject?

Great analogy of the US... the Constitution is the Law of the Land and is what defines America as America. If it were not for the Constitution, the US would be the same as all the rest of the countries around the world that have statutes and ordinances.

Don't you think that the other nations around Israel had their own laws, statutes and ordinances? The one thing they didn't have was a Divine Law... nothing to identify them as ruled over by the God of the Universe. This is what we mean when we say the Law (decalogue) reflects God's character and His government just as the Constitution reflects the United States' character and government.

 

[Pythons]

Great analogy of the US...

Thanks ECR, it may be simple but it is what it is.

the Constitution is the Law of the Land and is what defines America as America. If it were not for the Constitution, the US would be the same as all the rest of the countries around the world that have statutes and ordinances.

And article 1 which states that the U.S. is to have a Legislative Branch of Govt...
...Is meaningless without the Sections detailing how that Branch is made up.
...Do you see what I'm saying?

Don't you think that the other nations around Israel had their own laws, statutes and ordinances? The one thing they didn't have was a Divine Law... nothing to identify them as ruled over by the God of the Universe. This is what we mean when we say the Law (decalogue) reflects God's character and His government just as the Constitution reflects the United States' character and government.

Each Nation had Moral or Natural Law, both Scripture and secular history demonstrate this...
...Nations apart from Israel did not have Divine ceremonial laws.
...Which by definition are laws outside what human nature directs an individual toward.

Any enemy state of Israel had laws against stealing, murder, etc....
...Because human nature in society demands observance of them.
...A pagan was not directed by nature to observe Saturday as a specical day over any other day.
...Because that type of law is ceremonial and is outside what human nature ( imperfect reflection of God ) commands.