Works are a means of faith, whether you like it or not.

[ChurchMilitant]

My father was an atheist, a Communist, and a gay adulterer. I’d prefer he have not been those things, but I don’t hate him, and won’t. My mother was an alcoholic who became quite bitter in her old age. I understood why. I don’t hate her for it either. Jesus used a very strong term there. I choose to believe that he was speaking hyperbolically, because if he was speaking literally, he has demanded something of me that I won’t do. I choose, therefore, to see this statement of his as hyperbolic, as making a point, not to be taken literally, at least not by me in my condition.

Yes, he was being hyperbolic. He didn't literally mean hate individuals because he even says in Matthew 5 to pray for those that persecute you.

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

My father was an atheist, a Communist, and a gay adulterer. I’d prefer he have not been those things, but I don’t hate him, and won’t. My mother was an alcoholic who became quite bitter in her old age. I understood why. I don’t hate her for it either. Jesus used a very strong term there. I choose to believe that he was speaking hyperbolically, because if he was speaking literally, he has demanded something of me that I won’t do. I choose, therefore, to see this statement of his as hyperbolic, as making a point, not to be taken literally, at least not by me in my condition.

This becomes an issue if you want to follow Jesus. Because Jesus says plainly, to all that want to be his disciple, if they're not willing to give everything up, they aren't worthy of Him.
You can't "choose" to believe what is hyperbole. You have to measure up the rest of scripture, understand what Jesus meant, to who he was talking, and why He said what He did.
Jesus also said to honor your mother and father.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Those verses don't affirm the position that we don't have freewill. This is evidenced in the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, and also in 2 Peter 2:20-22. People who believed in the true and holy faith can be able to fall away, and reject God. That's why Jesus says in John 7:17 that we can choose to do the will of God. It's also important because in the Parable of the Sower has a direct context to parts of Matthew 5 where Jesus consistently reminds those that are willing to be persecuted for him there eternal award.

I didn't quote those verses trying to make any point against freewill. Those verses were clearly quoted for the content of the verses, that our works do not make us righteous aka we cannot save our self through our own deeds.

As for not having freewill, I didn't say we don't have freewill, I said we don't have absolute freewill.. there is a difference. But as the discussion wasn't between freewill or predestination, I only made a quick comment and moved on without making any scriptural reference. There was no point as no Christian believes in an absolute freewill if they read the Bible.

 

[bcbsr]

Anyone who reads Romans 4 will be aware of the fact that in Romans 4, St. Paul is speaking about works of the law, the Mosaic Law. That's why in Romans 3:28(which is the direct context of Romans 4 because firstly,there were no such things as chapters in the original manuscripts of the Infallible New Testament) St Paul states in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by works apart from the law. In Romans 3, St. Paul is telling the Gentiles you do not have to be circumcised, and that the God of the Jews are the God of the Gentiles.

Again, in St. John's Gospel, context matters. In St. John's Gospel Chapter 5, specifically in that section of the verse, our Lord who is God, Jesus Christ tells the Jews there that his authority is equal to the father(John 5:18), and in John 5:19-23), one can clearly see that he explains the fact that the Father has entrusted authority to him to judge the whole world, and if we honor the Son, we also honor the Father. That's why he is telling them that they must believe in him, but they must also keep the word of God(as the Sermon of the Mount in Matthew 5 to Matthew 7 so evidences, as well as in John 8:51).

Doesn't mention "the works of the law" in Romans 4. Note how he speaks generically of working for your salvation.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation." Rom 4:4

So he's talking about salvation by works, like many advocate on these forums.

But tell me, what to you are "the works of the Law".

You have the 10 commandments, for example. You have "love God" and "love your neighbor". Along with many other commands. But are you claiming are the works of the law? A tiny subset of the commands of the law?

 

[Hazelelponi]

To take this? Jesus said I have to hate my mother and father. No, Lord, I will not. So, that’s it then. If I take Jesus literally, then there’s no point in my going further down the road of Christianity. If the admission price is hating my parents, then it’s not a price I am willing to pay.

Jesus tells you to honor your mother and your father, but our salvation can mean that “A person’s enemies will be those of his own household,” Matthew 10:36.

When we are faced with the choice of our parents and Jesus we must choose Jesus.

The greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength.

That means putting Him first in all things - including family. The majority of Christians have never had to make this choice.. only some. Those some often do have to choose between life and Christ, however

 

[ChurchMilitant]

I didn't quote those verses trying to make any point against freewill. Those verses were clearly quoted for the content of the verses, that our works do not make us righteous aka we cannot save our self through our own deeds.

As for not having freewill, I didn't say we don't have freewill, I said we don't have absolute freewill.. there is a difference. But as the discussion wasn't between freewill or predestination, I only made a quick comment and moved on without making any scriptural reference. There was no point as no Christian believes in an absolute freewill if they read the Bible.

Of course. Absolute freedom of will in which we as humans fully control our-lives is not consistent view of scripture considering God foreordains things to happen, however as scripture affirms, one can lose his salvation, and can choose to reject God(even if he rejects the grace of faith that God gives as St. Peter in 2nd Peter Chapter 2 makes it clear). We also have the freedom to choose to sin and follow God's will or not. Lastly, one righteous man can pray to God for someone to be saved, but when God presents an opportunity for that person to be saved, that person can choose to reject the opportunity to receieve God's grace.

Doesn't mention "the works of the law" in Romans 4. Note how he speaks generically of working for your salvation.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation." Rom 4:4

So he's talking about salvation by works, like many advocate on these forums.

But tell me, what to you are "the works of the Law".

You have the 10 commandments, for example. You have "love God" and "love your neighbor". Along with many other commands. But are you claiming are the works of the law? A tiny subset of the commands of the law?

That isn't the consistent view of Romans 3, and Romans 4. Again, he ends of in Romans 3 when talking about the Mosaic Law as I evidently put out before. There were no such things as chapters in the New Testament. That entire chapter talks about salvation by works of the Mosaic Law, and there were no such things as "Chapter 1, Chapter 2" in the Bible manuscripts.

You don't even have to know the direct context of Romans 3 to be able to affirm such a position that Romans 4 is talking about the Mosaic Law. Why? Because in Romans 4:9-12, St. Paul taks about circumcision, and how Abraham's faith was already "credited to righteousness"(Romans 4:9) before he was circumcised(Romans 4:10-11). Furthermore, in Romans 4:13, St. Paul makes it clear that Abraham's offspring receieved their promise because of their faith, not because of the law(and that is coming from Romans 4:9-12 which talks about the Mosaic Law. Moroever, in Romans 4:18-24, St Paul makes it clear that Abraham, through his faith, did not waver from the promise God had from him in the later verses of Roman 4, he asserts the point of how the Christians who believe in Christ must have faith, as Abraham did.

 

[bcbsr]

Of course. Absolute freedom of will in which we as humans fully control our-lives is not consistent view of scripture considering God foreordains things to happen, however as scripture affirms, one can lose his salvation, and can choose to reject God(even if he rejects the grace of faith that God gives as St. Peter in 2nd Peter Chapter 2 makes it clear). We also have the freedom to choose to sin and follow God's will or not. Lastly, one righteous man can pray to God for someone to be saved, but when God presents an opportunity for that person to be saved, that person can choose to reject the opportunity to receieve God's grace.


That isn't the consistent view of Romans 3, and Romans 4. Again, he ends of in Romans 3 when talking about the Mosaic Law as I evidently put out before. There were no such things as chapters in the New Testament. That entire chapter talks about salvation by works of the Mosaic Law, and there were no such things as "Chapter 1, Chapter 2" in the Bible manuscripts.

You don't even have to know the direct context of Romans 3 to be able to affirm such a position that Romans 4 is talking about the Mosaic Law. Why? Because in Romans 4:9-12, St. Paul taks about circumcision, and how Abraham's faith was already "credited to righteousness"(Romans 4:9) before he was circumcised(Romans 4:10-11). Furthermore, in Romans 4:13, St. Paul makes it clear that Abraham's offspring receieved their promise because of their faith, not because of the law(and that is coming from Romans 4:9-12 which talks about the Mosaic Law. Moroever, in Romans 4:18-24, St Paul makes it clear that Abraham, through his faith, did not waver from the promise God had from him in the later verses of Roman 4, he asserts the point of how the Christians who believe in Christ must have faith, as Abraham did.

Can you list for me what you think "the works of the law" are?

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Can you list for me what you think "the works of the law" are?

It's not really what I think. It's what Saint Paul affirms when he talks about works of the Mosaic Law. . The verses are clear on the subject. Romans 3 and 4 also correlate with Galatians 5 when St. Paul directly affirms that if you are circumcised and reject Christ, you will not be saved.

Other works of the law include not eating pork(although tbh, I don't eat it which is just a personal preference), sacrificing lambs an so forth. Those things, the things of the Mosaic Law, are not beneficial for salvation anymore.

 

[bcbsr]

It's not really what I think. It's what Saint Paul affirms when he talks about works of the Mosaic Law. . The verses are clear on the subject. Romans 3 and 4 also correlate with Galatians 5 when St. Paul directly affirms that if you are circumcised and reject Christ, you will not be saved.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" Rom 3:10 According to the apostle Paul, the "works of the law" include EVERYTHING written in the law, which would include loving God, loving your neighbor, the 10 commandmants along with about 500 other commandments. It's not, as some would apparently have it, restricted to the ceremony of circumcision or dietary restrictions.

So, for example, if people are trying to obey the 10 commandments to be saved, they are under the curse of the Law and have not come to faith in Christ. Agree?

And that's why in Rom 4 he speaks generically or working for your salvation, because "the works of the law" include everything. Even those not under the law (Gentiles) have a conscience which is a law to themselves (Rom 2:14) Whether it's obeying God's commandments to be saved, or living up to one's own morals to be save, both are salvation by works, a soteriology advocated by many in these forums as I frequently point out.

 

[klutedavid]

It is the gift of Grace which allows anyone to have Faith, but it is Faith that saves.

Faith and the measure of faith, is merely a gift from above and you are saved by Grace only.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[klutedavid]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.
Faith means to trust, it's more than a belief. Faith without works is dead, because faith without works is vain belief.
God's will is that you trust (have faith in) his Son.
If you trust his son, you will do what he says.

If you don't, then you have no faith, irrespective of your belief in Jesus. You can believe he's the Son of God, you can believe he died for your sins. But those are in vain without faith (trust). Which is why Jesus says, not everyone who says Lord will enter the kingdom, but those who do the Fathers will: to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians say, "trust in the work done on the cross", although it's important, they cut it off there. But that alone won't save you if you neglect everything else. - As to why I'm against modern doctrines, because they were steering me in the wrong direction, when I became a believer.

There are inclusive precursors of faith, that as a whole demonstrate faith. Beginning with a mindset.

To do these things is in itself faith:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." ... "In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." If you haven't given everything up, are you saved? Your belief will be counted for nothing.

Again, re-stated by Jesus: "Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me."

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives the One who sent Me."

"The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."
So they hear the word and receive it with joy. Are they saved? No. Why? Because they had no faith. If they had faith, they would deny themselves, and in times of persecution, they would save their life by losing it for the sake of Jesus.

If you neglect these things in the opportunity given, by means of faith, then you won't be saved. This isn't to say, you won't be saved if you don't complete a set of actions. God knows the heart and how true your faith is (whether your faith has a root in good ground, if it is, then you will have fruit).

Hear what Jesus says, not what you want to hear him say. Paul paraphrases the doctrine of Jesus, that he doesn't redundantly repeat it. Many ignore what Jesus says, and therefore don't fully understand what Paul is speaking about, thus corrupting scripture. Throwing around cherry-picked verses in vain.

Faith and belief are the same Koine Greek word.
I never see the Latin word, 'faith', I only ever see the English translation, 'belief', in the scripture.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" Rom 3:10 According to the apostle Paul, the "works of the law" include EVERYTHING written in the law, which would include loving God, loving your neighbor, the 10 commandmants along with about 500 other commandments. It's not, as some would apparently have it, restricted to the ceremony of circumcision or dietary restrictions.

So, for example, if people are trying to obey the 10 commandments to be saved, they are under the curse of the Law and have not come to faith in Christ. Agree?

And that's why in Rom 4 he speaks generically or working for your salvation, because "the works of the law" include everything. Even those not under the law (Gentiles) have a conscience which is a law to themselves (Rom 2:14) Whether it's obeying God's commandments to be saved, or living up to one's own morals to be save, both are salvation by works, a soteriology advocated by many in these forums as I frequently point out.

You mean salvation by grace-inspired works. I don't know about other groups, but at least in regards to the Catholic Church, it's been consistently taught if you think you can work out your salvation, it's wrong. Those works are only meritious if you are under the state of God's grace, as scripture evidences.

Moreover, that isn't the correct verse of Romans 3:10. Romans 3:10(actually it's Romans 3:18), St. Paul(in previous verses from Romans 3) is basically telling the Jews that you are also sinful just like the Greeks and you are not "more righteous in-front of God".

Actually no. Those 10 commandments are things that are binding to all Christians(and we are still bound to them) because Our Lord consistently throughout the gospels states you have to do the 10 commandments. That isn't a contradictions. Galatians 5:14 states that "loving your neighbour as yourself" also summarizes the entire law, and really, loving your neighbour as yourself(and doing the first commandment to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and might) summarizes the entirety of the 10 commandments. Considering that iirc Galatians 5 also continues with how the Mosaic Law is no longer applicable to us, it just further affirms Galatians 3

 

[klutedavid]

You mean salvation by grace-inspired works. I don't know about other groups, but at least in regards to the Catholic Church, it's been consistently taught if you think you can work out your salvation, it's wrong. Those works are only meritious if you are under the state of God's grace, as scripture evidences.

Moreover, that isn't the correct verse of Romans 3:10. Romans 3:10(actually it's Romans 3:18), St. Paul(in previous verses from Romans 3) is basically telling the Jews that you are also sinful just like the Greeks and you are not "more righteous in-front of God".

Actually no. Those 10 commandments are things that are binding to all Christians(and we are still bound to them) because Our Lord consistently throughout the gospels states you have to do the 10 commandments. That isn't a contradictions. Galatians 5:14 states that "loving your neighbour as yourself" also summarizes the entire law, and really, loving your neighbour as yourself(and doing the first commandment to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and might) summarizes the entirety of the 10 commandments. Considering that iirc Galatians 5 also continues with how the Mosaic Law is no longer applicable to us, it just further affirms Galatians 3

Not many read Paul's letter to the Romans correctly.

Romans 3:10(actually it's Romans 3:18), St. Paul(in previous verses from Romans 3) is basically telling the Jews that you are also sinful just like the Greeks and you are not "more righteous in-front of God".

Well done, I am unsure why the letter to the Romans is so unclear to so many.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Not many read Paul's letter to the Romans correctly.

Well done, I am unsure why the letter to the Romans is so unclear to so many.

My sincerest apologies if I offend you. I'm just simply confused if you are arguing against what I stated, or are in affirmation for it.

Also, I believe(or I hope at least) the two aforementioned people know their bibles well(I need to improve on that part), but I do agree. The Book of Romans is probably one of the best books that affirm that the works of the Law are the Mosaic Law. It's not what people who unfortunately affirm sola fide believe.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Faith and the measure of faith, is merely a gift from above and you are saved by Grace only.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Amen!
I quite surprised it took 4 pages for these beautiful verses to be posted.

 

[klutedavid]

My sincerest apologies if I offend you. I'm just simply confused if you are arguing against what I stated, or are in affirmation for it.

Also, I believe(or I hope at least) the two aforementioned people know their bibles well(I need to improve on that part), but I do agree. The Book of Romans is probably one of the best books that affirm that the works of the Law are the Mosaic Law. It's not what people who unfortunately affirm sola fide believe.

I do not hold to faith alone, I enforce Grace alone.

Of course I disagree. I was merely saying that your interpretation of the letter to the Romans, was accurate. In that Paul was addressing the Jews in Rome, not Gentiles in chapter three.

 

[klutedavid]

Amen!
I quite surprised it took 4 pages for these beautiful verses to be posted.

Sorry about that.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

I do not hold to faith alone, I enforce Grace alone.

Of course I disagree. I was merely saying that your interpretation of the letter to the Romans, was accurate. In that Paul was addressing the Jews in Rome, not Gentiles in chapter three.

I also believe in grace alone. That grace gives us faith in the Triune God, and also inspires us to do works which are only meritorious under the state of grace since we can lose it.

 

[klutedavid]

I also believe in grace alone. That grace gives us faith in the Triune God, and also inspires us to do works which are only meritorious under the state of grace since we can lose it.

Well you understand the deeper aspect, the truth of the scripture.

Not sure that I would venture to say, that God would ever let you go?

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Well you understand the deeper aspect, the truth of the scripture.

Not sure that I would venture to say, that God would ever let you go?

God has one will, but that will has something akin to a will of effect(like Exodus 7 where he hardened the heart of pharoah so his glory could be manifested, him pulling the Jews out of Egypt, him coming down to die for us(fullfilling the prophecy of Genesis 3:15) and various other examples). There is also a will of desire where he as the Holy Gospels state want everyone to come to him but many will fall away. That's affirmed in Matthew 13 in his Parable of the Sower, the Parable about the Vine Branches, 2nd Peter 2, Galatians 5, etc. If we believe, and have received grace, yet turn away from Christ, it is our fault, and not God.