Works are a means of faith, whether you like it or not.

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.
Faith means to trust, it's more than a belief. Faith without works is dead, because faith without works is vain belief.
God's will is that you trust (have faith in) his Son.
If you trust his son, you will do what he says.

If you don't, then you have no faith, irrespective of your belief in Jesus. You can believe he's the Son of God, you can believe he died for your sins. But those are in vain without faith (trust). Which is why Jesus says, not everyone who says Lord will enter the kingdom, but those who do the Fathers will: to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians say, "trust in the work done on the cross", although it's important, they cut it off there. But that alone won't save you if you neglect everything else. - As to why I'm against modern doctrines, because they were steering me in the wrong direction, when I became a believer.

There are inclusive precursors of faith, that as a whole demonstrate faith. Beginning with a mindset.

To do these things is in itself faith:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." ... "In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." If you haven't given everything up, are you saved? Your belief will be counted for nothing.

Again, re-stated by Jesus: "Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me."

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives the One who sent Me."

"The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."
So they hear the word and receive it with joy. Are they saved? No. Why? Because they had no faith. If they had faith, they would deny themselves, and in times of persecution, they would save their life by losing it for the sake of Jesus.

If you neglect these things in the opportunity given, by means of faith, then you won't be saved. This isn't to say, you won't be saved if you don't complete a set of actions. God knows the heart and how true your faith is (whether your faith has a root in good ground, if it is, then you will have fruit).

Hear what Jesus says, not what you want to hear him say. Paul paraphrases the doctrine of Jesus, that he doesn't redundantly repeat it. Many ignore what Jesus says, and therefore don't fully understand what Paul is speaking about, thus corrupting scripture. Throwing around cherry-picked verses in vain.

 

[~Zao~]

The thing is that people hate more than anything an attitude adjuster. They think it means stepping down.

 

[Anto9us]

Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Whether you like it or not, BELIEF/FAITH can be seen to be a WORK based on John 6:28-29

 

[Albion]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.

It is the gift of Grace which allows anyone to have Faith, but it is Faith that saves.

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

It is the gift of Grace which allows anyone to have Faith, but it is Faith that saves.

Faith doesn't save on it's own. It's grace that saves, through faith.

 

[Albion]

Faith doesn't save on it's own. It's grace that saves, through faith.

No, it's Faith that saves through Grace. Grace is the vehicle by which we get Faith; or you might say that it is the cause of us having saving Faith..

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

We talk a lot about faith but we read, "the greatest of these is love."

No, I'm not talking here about loving the poor, the persecuted, the lonely, or sinners; I am talking about how faith works.

It is written, "Faith works by love."

We are told that we must, "Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind."

Think about it. Jesus used the example of a little child, "Except you become as little children you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Why a little child? Because little children have the purest expression of love. A little child sees dad as omnipotent [I know disappointment is guaranteed, I had to disappoint my dearest friend because he thought I was capable of more that I am]. A little child wants to be with dad and to make him happy by doping what he asks, believing that dad will help him if the task is too difficult. A little child trusts dad to love him in spite of his mistakes. A little child wants to help [even if its a nuisance].

So the question is, does your faith express your love for God and for Jesus? Does it make you want to please them? Not that your salvation is dependent on pleasing them; just that true faith just loves doing God things.

Personally I find it difficult to spend my time on cars; sport or any other thing simply because I love God. I don't view them as wrong I just find them meaningless.

When I was born again Jesus was my first love and I have no intention of leaving him.

Yes faith/believing is a work but he who loves little does little.

 

[mark kennedy]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.
Faith means to trust, it's more than a belief. Faith without works is dead, because faith without works is vain belief.
God's will is that you trust (have faith in) his Son.
If you trust his son, you will do what he says.

If you don't, then you have no faith, irrespective of your belief in Jesus. You can believe he's the Son of God, you can believe he died for your sins. But those are in vain without faith (trust). Which is why Jesus says, not everyone who says Lord will enter the kingdom, but those who do the Fathers will: to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians say, "trust in the work done on the cross", although it's important, they cut it off there. But that alone won't save you if you neglect everything else. - As to why I'm against modern doctrines, because they were steering me in the wrong direction, when I became a believer.

There are inclusive precursors of faith, that as a whole demonstrate faith. Beginning with a mindset.

To do these things is in itself faith:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." ... "In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." If you haven't given everything up, are you saved? Your belief will be counted for nothing.

Again, re-stated by Jesus: "Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me."

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives the One who sent Me."

"The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."
So they hear the word and receive it with joy. Are they saved? No. Why? Because they had no faith. If they had faith, they would deny themselves, and in times of persecution, they would save their life by losing it for the sake of Jesus.

If you neglect these things in the opportunity given, by means of faith, then you won't be saved. This isn't to say, you won't be saved if you don't complete a set of actions. God knows the heart and how true your faith is (whether your faith has a root in good ground, if it is, then you will have fruit).

Hear what Jesus says, not what you want to hear him say. Paul paraphrases the doctrine of Jesus, that he doesn't redundantly repeat it. Many ignore what Jesus says, and therefore don't fully understand what Paul is speaking about, thus corrupting scripture. Throwing around cherry-picked verses in vain.

What works are they talking about?

 

[Kenny'sID]

One could claim, works are our faith...in action.

For example, "I'm stranded but I have faith I can walk the 50 miles to the gas station" So now what? Sit there and do nothing to show that faith, or start walking/working?

 

[redleghunter]

Where sometimes there is confusion over root vs fruit and justification vs sanctification, pastor and theologian John Piper had this to say when ministering to his flock:

On Faith and Obedience:

I say this because of the, sometimes unforeseen, other significant changes in theology and pastoral counsel that come when imputation is rejected. For example, there begins to emerge a coalescing of faith and its fruit in a way that makes it difficult to counsel people how to pursue practical holiness “by faith” rather than “as faith.” Some today are treating faith and obedience as two ways of speaking about one response, or as different only in their direction or intention, rather than seeing the biblical pattern that faith (as root) remains distinct from works of faith (as fruit), although never inseparable. (See the Westminster Confession of Faith, 11.2: “Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.”)
From : Counted Righteous in Christ ​

 

[mark kennedy]

One could claim, works are our faith...in action.

For example, "I'm stranded but I have faith I can walk the 50 miles to the gas station" So now what? Sit there and do nothing to show that faith, or start walking/working?

An act of kindness in that situation could be borderline miraculous and not cost you much at all. Just saying, never underestimate the importance of an act of kindness.

 

[mark kennedy]

We talk a lot about faith but we read, "the greatest of these is love."

No, I'm not talking here about loving the poor, the persecuted, the lonely, or sinners; I am talking about how faith works.

It is written, "Faith works by love."

We are told that we must, "Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind."

Think about it. Jesus used the example of a little child, "Except you become as little children you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Why a little child? Because little children have the purest expression of love. A little child sees dad as omnipotent [I know disappointment is guaranteed, I had to disappoint my dearest friend because he thought I was capable of more that I am]. A little child wants to be with dad and to make him happy by doping what he asks, believing that dad will help him if the task is too difficult. A little child trusts dad to love him in spite of his mistakes. A little child wants to help [even if its a nuisance].

So the question is, does your faith express your love for God and for Jesus? Does it make you want to please them? Not that your salvation is dependent on pleasing them; just that true faith just loves doing God things.

Personally I find it difficult to spend my time on cars; sport or any other thing simply because I love God. I don't view them as wrong I just find them meaningless.

When I was born again Jesus was my first love and I have no intention of leaving him.

Yes faith/believing is a work but he who loves little does little.

I think the message from the New Testament is clear, if you love him you will love his, and he will hold us accountable. The works of righteousness we do, such as they are, glorify God. That's not required for salvation, that is salvation. A child could understand so maybe that's why Jesus said you must be converted and become as a child. God loves us, it only makes sense that he would want us to love one another.

 

[disciple Clint]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.
Faith means to trust, it's more than a belief. Faith without works is dead, because faith without works is vain belief.
God's will is that you trust (have faith in) his Son.
If you trust his son, you will do what he says.

If you don't, then you have no faith, irrespective of your belief in Jesus. You can believe he's the Son of God, you can believe he died for your sins. But those are in vain without faith (trust). Which is why Jesus says, not everyone who says Lord will enter the kingdom, but those who do the Fathers will: to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians say, "trust in the work done on the cross", although it's important, they cut it off there. But that alone won't save you if you neglect everything else. - As to why I'm against modern doctrines, because they were steering me in the wrong direction, when I became a believer.

There are inclusive precursors of faith, that as a whole demonstrate faith. Beginning with a mindset.

To do these things is in itself faith:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." ... "In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." If you haven't given everything up, are you saved? Your belief will be counted for nothing.

Again, re-stated by Jesus: "Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me."

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives the One who sent Me."

"The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."
So they hear the word and receive it with joy. Are they saved? No. Why? Because they had no faith. If they had faith, they would deny themselves, and in times of persecution, they would save their life by losing it for the sake of Jesus.

If you neglect these things in the opportunity given, by means of faith, then you won't be saved. This isn't to say, you won't be saved if you don't complete a set of actions. God knows the heart and how true your faith is (whether your faith has a root in good ground, if it is, then you will have fruit).

Hear what Jesus says, not what you want to hear him say. Paul paraphrases the doctrine of Jesus, that he doesn't redundantly repeat it. Many ignore what Jesus says, and therefore don't fully understand what Paul is speaking about, thus corrupting scripture. Throwing around cherry-picked verses in vain.

My thinking is that faith, grace, and works are all interrelated, it is a package deal. God gives us Grace to accept the word of God, when we receive the word of God we increase Faith, Faith increases Grace, Works are the inevitable result of our Faith and Grace. I never have as much of any of these as I would like to have, you can never have too much.

 

[bcbsr]

Faith alone wouldn't save, if it wasn't for grace.
Faith means to trust, it's more than a belief. Faith without works is dead, because faith without works is vain belief.
God's will is that you trust (have faith in) his Son.
If you trust his son, you will do what he says.

If you don't, then you have no faith, irrespective of your belief in Jesus. You can believe he's the Son of God, you can believe he died for your sins. But those are in vain without faith (trust). Which is why Jesus says, not everyone who says Lord will enter the kingdom, but those who do the Fathers will: to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians say, "trust in the work done on the cross", although it's important, they cut it off there. But that alone won't save you if you neglect everything else. - As to why I'm against modern doctrines, because they were steering me in the wrong direction, when I became a believer.

There are inclusive precursors of faith, that as a whole demonstrate faith. Beginning with a mindset.

To do these things is in itself faith:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." ... "In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." If you haven't given everything up, are you saved? Your belief will be counted for nothing.

Again, re-stated by Jesus: "Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me."

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives the One who sent Me."

"The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."
So they hear the word and receive it with joy. Are they saved? No. Why? Because they had no faith. If they had faith, they would deny themselves, and in times of persecution, they would save their life by losing it for the sake of Jesus.

If you neglect these things in the opportunity given, by means of faith, then you won't be saved. This isn't to say, you won't be saved if you don't complete a set of actions. God knows the heart and how true your faith is (whether your faith has a root in good ground, if it is, then you will have fruit).

Hear what Jesus says, not what you want to hear him say. Paul paraphrases the doctrine of Jesus, that he doesn't redundantly repeat it. Many ignore what Jesus says, and therefore don't fully understand what Paul is speaking about, thus corrupting scripture. Throwing around cherry-picked verses in vain.

So you're saying salvation by works. In contrast (and yes I'm repeating myself again), Paul says,

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:4-7

Those who work to be saved reject the grace of God, disqualifying themselves from salvation, just as the unbelieving Jews.

I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

No, it's Faith that saves through Grace. Grace is the vehicle by which we get Faith; or you might say that it is the cause of us having saving Faith..

God disagrees, you have it backwards.
Ephesians 2:8-9
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

Where sometimes there is confusion over root vs fruit and justification vs sanctification, pastor and theologian John Piper had this to say when ministering to his flock:

On Faith and Obedience:

I say this because of the, sometimes unforeseen, other significant changes in theology and pastoral counsel that come when imputation is rejected. For example, there begins to emerge a coalescing of faith and its fruit in a way that makes it difficult to counsel people how to pursue practical holiness “by faith” rather than “as faith.” Some today are treating faith and obedience as two ways of speaking about one response, or as different only in their direction or intention, rather than seeing the biblical pattern that faith (as root) remains distinct from works of faith (as fruit), although never inseparable. (See the Westminster Confession of Faith, 11.2: “Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.”)
From : Counted Righteous in Christ ​

He like many others, are not understanding what faith means.

 

[Albion]

God disagrees, you have it backwards.
Ephesians 2:8-9
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"

Maybe if you consulted a few of the better Bible commentaries for an explanation of the meaning?? It couldn't hurt. And they're online.

What you think you are reading is that Grace saves, but what it actually is saying is that Grace enables Faith to function...and it then saves. Or we could say that Grace imparts saving Faith to us. So, yes, Grace is necessary, but Faith is the active force in our acceptance of Christs work of redemption.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So you're saying salvation by works. In contrast (and yes I'm repeating myself again), Paul says,

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:4-7

Those who work to be saved reject the grace of God, disqualifying themselves from salvation, just as the unbelieving Jews.

I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

At its point you can likely just copy/paste your responses

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

So you're saying salvation by works. In contrast (and yes I'm repeating myself again), Paul says,

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:4-7

Those who work to be saved reject the grace of God, disqualifying themselves from salvation, just as the unbelieving Jews.

I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

If you don't deny yourself, then you're not worthy of Jesus (Yes, He also said that - don't cherry pick what fits your doctrine).
Again, you continually ignore what Jesus says, jump to Paul and continually misunderstand.
Saved by grace through faith, is for those who are trying to be saved by works.
We are being saved by grace, through faith which is by means of works (actions).

The first verse you posted, Paul was speaking in contrast to the Old testament, to those who tried to justify themselves by works. There's a difference between how Paul used "work", and how faith (works). Otherwise scripture contradicts itself, when it says, "faith without works is dead". Faith, begins with a mindset which brings actions, which in themselves are works and constitute faith. Other works Paul is speaking about, are works without faith. They are simply law-abiding for justification as a means to be saved, without grace.

I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Again, this is written to those who justify themselves outside of grace/faith (righteousness from God). Which is who the, "saved by grace through faith", verse was written for.
No one's telling you to do works to be saved. We are simply telling you to do what Jesus said, and he said to deny yourself if you want to be his disciple. If this is a work to you, then don't do it.

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

Maybe if you consulted a few of the better Bible commentaries for an explanation of the meaning?? It couldn't hurt. And they're online.

What you think you are reading is that Grace saves, but what it actually is saying is that Grace enables Faith to function...and it then saves. Or we could say that Grace imparts saving Faith to us. So, yes, Grace is necessary, but Faith is the active force in our acceptance of Christs work of redemption.

Without Grace, would your faith save you? No.
We are saved through faith, by the unmerited gift of God.
I don't care that you're telling me it's "by faith", when scripture says it's "through faith".

I'm not saying faith has nothing to do with salvation. I'm saying there's a big difference what the source of salvation is. By, means the source. When you say by faith, you're implying it's through grace.