Words of knowledge

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are conflating two entirely different things

Why? Wouldn't it be those in recognised leadership be the ones to exercise spiritual gifts?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are church leaders the only ones to have spiritual gifts?

Well, I wouldn't accept a word of knowledge from any old tom, dick or harry who isn't a recognised leader in the church. Would you?

 

[tturt]

GIFTS are given to every believer "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." I Cor 12:11

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

GIFTS are given to every believer "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." I Cor 12:11

The only gifts that Paul expressly said were available to every believer was tongues and prophecy. He said, "I would that you all spoke in tongues", and "You may all prophesy". But the other gifts: Word of Knowledge, Discerning of Spirits, Working of Miracles, Gifts of Healing, Word of Wisdom, Gift of Faith, are for those who have a recognised leadership role in the church, and are linked as the spiritual tools that support the five-fold ministries.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, I wouldn't accept a word of knowledge from any old tom, dick or harry who isn't a recognised leader in the church. Would you?

If someone told me something about myself that I knew they couldn't have known from second hand knowledge, I wouldn't just write them off or ignore them. God can use anyone, at any time, for any purpose.

But that's not really the point of scripture me thinks. I don't read anywhere that only church leaders can flow in the gifts of the Spirit.

But the point of my post isn't who can or can't flow in the gifts, it's how do you know when God is giving you a word of knowledge.

I agree with you on one point you originally made. Spending time with God in prayer and communion will certainly help a person recognize his voice.

 

[ARBITER01]

The only gifts that Paul expressly said were available to every believer was tongues and prophecy. He said, "I would that you all spoke in tongues", and "You may all prophesy". But the other gifts: Word of Knowledge, Discerning of Spirits, Working of Miracles, Gifts of Healing, Word of Wisdom, Gift of Faith, are for those who have a recognised leadership role in the church, and are linked as the spiritual tools that support the five-fold ministries.

Any Christian can have all 9 gifts operating in their life, I have all 9 gifts but some operate better than others, some hardly at all,... but all are there.

I think you're confusing ministries with gifts Oscarr. Not everyone will have a ministry with their gifts.

 

[topher694]

Why? Wouldn't it be those in recognised leadership be the ones to exercise spiritual gifts?

Character is a qualification for leadership.

The gifts are not a qualification for leadership.

The gifts are not limited to leadership or the mature, they are available to all believers.

Paul did not consider the gifts something that should be limited to leadership or the mature. In 1 Cor 3 he says to the Corinthian church they have not been ready for the meat of the word only the milk and that they STILL aren't ready. This means that everything that follows - including the gifts of the Spirit - Paul considers milk, not meat.

The gifts are an important part of the maturing process, if they were limited to the mature only, no one would ever be ready to use them.

The problem you are eluding to is not solved by limiting the gifts to the mature, it is solved by the gifts being overseen by the mature. This is why Paul emphasized to desire the gifts but for it to be done "decently and in order". Order comes from leadership, who should be operating in character and integrity while guiding those in their charge.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If someone told me something about myself that I knew they couldn't have known from second hand knowledge, I wouldn't just write them off or ignore them. God can use anyone, at any time, for any purpose.

But that's not really the point of scripture me thinks. I don't read anywhere that only church leaders can flow in the gifts of the Spirit.

But the point of my post isn't who can or can't flow in the gifts, it's how do you know when God is giving you a word of knowledge.

I agree with you on one point you originally made. Spending time with God in prayer and communion will certainly help a person recognize his voice.

I made the point about church leadership, because I wouldn't accept a "word of knowledge" from someone I didn't respect as a mature church leader. My pastor used to correct me a lot when I was younger, and he said he did it because He watched for me before God in prayer that my faith in Christ wouldn't fail. Therefore when I know that someone is praying for me on a regular basis, I would tend to listen to them when they tell me that God is telling them something about me.

Also, just because the word might be accurate, it doesn't mean that it comes from the Holy Spirit. Demons know all about us and can be very accurate when they decide to give a deceiving word. What we have to determine when someone comes up to us with the word, what is their intention, and is their attitude consistent with God's Word. Maybe their intention is to get you to have confidence in them so they can steer you away from having faith in Christ alone. Power and control is a very insidious thing and it can come in very plausible garb. But a word that points you directly to Christ and increases your faith in Him over everyone else, is one that can be trusted.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Any Christian can have all 9 gifts operating in their life, I have all 9 gifts but some operate better than others, some hardly at all,... but all are there.

I think you're confusing ministries with gifts Oscarr. Not everyone will have a ministry with their gifts.

I don't think that it is possible, and doesn't seem consistent with Paul teaching to operate all nine gifts. It is similar to someone saying that they can operate in all of the five-fold ministries. I think that one person using all of the gifts goes against what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12 about the body of Christ having many parts, each having its own function, therefore each function having its own specific gifts.

I have had a particular success in assisting people to receive the baptism with the Spirit and the gift of tongues. In the prophetic ministry that I was involved in, it was recognised, and I received quite a number of referrals from the leader of the ministry to assist those who were seeking the baptism with the Spirit.

I think I am a bit sensitive about novices using the gifts of the Spirit, because when I first joined the Pentecostal church and was part of it for 12 years, I saw many young believers still wet behind the ears, making fools of themselves trying to exercise gifts of the Spirit when they were nowhere near any level of experience or maturity to be able to use the gifts wisely. I saw young believers trying to cast devils out of others when there were no demons there in the first place.

The only time I had a word of knowledge was when I was leading a Christian camp, and the results were remarkable. I wasn't seeking it, but it happened, and I knew that it was from God. When leading a homegroup, I gave prophecies that were so accurate, that the group of people, whom I had just met for the first time, were totally amazed. That never happened again, although when I gave a prophetic word to a CF member, before the prophet forum closed down, he asked me whether I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work! But that took place when I had been involved in the prophetic for nearly 40 years, and it happened 10 years ago.

In 2019, I moved from Auckland NZ to Christchurch, and I am no longer directly involved in a prophetic ministry. So I am not known outside of my small Union church. Therefore I would not be expected to be used in any of the gifts of the Spirit, because the group I am with have had no teaching about them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Character is a qualification for leadership.

The gifts are not a qualification for leadership.

The gifts are not limited to leadership or the mature, they are available to all believers.

Paul did not consider the gifts something that should be limited to leadership or the mature. In 1 Cor 3 he says to the Corinthian church they have not been ready for the meat of the word only the milk and that they STILL aren't ready. This means that everything that follows - including the gifts of the Spirit - Paul considers milk, not meat.

The gifts are an important part of the maturing process, if they were limited to the mature only, no one would ever be ready to use them.

The problem you are eluding to is not solved by limiting the gifts to the mature, it is solved by the gifts being overseen by the mature. This is why Paul emphasized to desire the gifts but for it to be done "decently and in order". Order comes from leadership, who should be operating in character and integrity while guiding those in their charge.

Let me respectfully ask you this: How long was it after you first became a Christian in your church that you started using the spiritual gifts to build up the rest of the members in your church? Was it very soon after you were baptised with the Spirit, or was it when the leadership recognised that you had a definite spiritual gift and welcomed it when you exercised it?

 

[topher694]

Let me respectfully ask you this: How long was it after you first became a Christian in your church that you started using the spiritual gifts to build up the rest of the members in your church? Was it very soon after you were baptised with the Spirit, or was it when the leadership recognised that you had a definite spiritual gift and welcomed it when you exercised it?

In a class overseen by leadership. Just as I outlined.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In a class overseen by leadership. Just as I outlined.

Ah! Q.E.D. You were overseen by leadership, so you were exercising a gift effectively authorised by leadership, and not just on your own recognisance. No problems there!

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't think that it is possible, and doesn't seem consistent with Paul teaching to operate all nine gifts. It is similar to someone saying that they can operate in all of the five-fold ministries.

No it's not,... that's not what I said Oscarr.

A person can have all 9 Spiritual gifts given to them when they are filled with The Spirit,... this is not uncommon. In fact, being given more than one gift when filled with The Spirit is quite scriptural,..

Act 19:4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Jesus.
Act 19:5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Having more than one gift doesn't mean I also have a multitude of ministries that operate in the church.

 

[lsume]

I agree but you don't receive fruit like you receive a gift. Fruit grows, gifts are given

That is true. However, please consider the order of things. The gifts you desire might be better used after you increase in the fruits.

 

[lismore]

Why? Wouldn't it be those in recognised leadership be the ones to exercise spiritual gifts?

Hello Oscarr. To turn your question around, wouldn't someone with a recognised spiritual gift in a congregation be encouraged into leadership in that congregation? Definitely yes. Timothy in the bible for instance (2 Timothy 1:6). Edit: also Acts 6:3 where leadership, good character and spiritual gifts are interlinked. God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello Oscarr. To turn your question around, wouldn't someone with a recognised spiritual gift in a congregation be encouraged into leadership in that congregation? Definitely yes. Timothy in the bible for instance (2 Timothy 1:6) God Bless

No doubt!

 

[topher694]

Hello Oscarr. To turn your question around, wouldn't someone with a recognised spiritual gift in a congregation be encouraged into leadership in that congregation? Definitely yes. Timothy in the bible for instance (2 Timothy 1:6) God Bless

Spiritual gifts should not be a primary criteria for leadership and 2 Tim 1:6 is not indicating that. Over focus on the gifts in leadership is what causes all sorts of issues that people here complain about all the time... God is not impressed with your anointing, because it's His power. Character should be the standard, not gifts.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, I wouldn't accept a word of knowledge from any old tom, dick or harry who isn't a recognised leader in the church. Would you?

Ugh. Some posts almost demand involvement, Lol.

Greetings, Oscarr, and hope you are well. Your position assumes you know who the true leaders in a church are, based merely on structure. This is often not the case. I have been in churches where unfortunately the leaders were not actually the strongest people in the congregation spiritually, and I have seen them outright quench services by taking control of them in the flesh.

I think the biggest reason why the church as a whole is in the mess it is in today is specifically because of the leadership, and that it will take a completely different class of leader before the church ever comes out of this awful spiritual malaise we are in.

That said, pinning the operation of the gifts to the leadership becomes, IMO, a one way ticket to certain failure for the church.

 

[topher694]

Ugh. Some posts almost demand involvement, Lol.

Greetings, Oscarr, and hope you are well. Your position assumes you know who the true leaders in a church are, based merely on structure. This is often not the case. I have been in churches where unfortunately the leaders were not actually the strongest people in the congregation spiritually, and I have seen them outright quench services by taking control of them in the flesh.

I think the biggest reason why the church as a whole is in the mess it is in today is specifically because of the leadership, and that it will take a completely different class of leader before the church ever comes out of this awful spiritual malaise we are in.

That said, pinning the operation of the gifts to the leadership becomes, IMO, a one way ticket to certain failure for the church.

Right. By his logic, 2000 years ago he would have rejected any word or prayer from Jesus since he was just a lowly carpenter with no formal leadership position.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Right. By his logic, 2000 years ago he would have rejected any word or prayer from Jesus since he was just a lowly carpenter with no formal leadership position.

Well yes, actually, as well as the authority of the early church apostles.

Now some would say that there are no real parallels between present church leadership and the leadership of Israel at the time of Christ, but I think more parallels can be found to this effect than the opposite. They were covetous for one thing, and we see a lot of covetousness in church leadership today. They were superficial, and we also see a lot of that. Most of all they were controlling, and refused to let their positions of spiritual "authority" be questioned, which might be the most damning one of all.

Several times in Israel's history God chose those who were of no account to "bring to nought those who were," and shamed the leadership of the nation by raising up those who were truly anointed of God. It would seem presumptuous of us to assume that this pattern has now somehow stopped, and that the leadership of the church need never again be doubted or questioned.