Women's roles in LCMS vs. other conservative Christian groups

[kdm1984]

Hi all. I come from a mixed conservative Protestant background. My parents raised me in relative freedom, first in WELS churches, and then later with a heavy Pentecostal vibe (emotional worship, healings, visions, and emphasis on signs of the End Times). I also encountered a group of extremely patriarchal Calvinists who confused me further with their focus on women's roles, which my parents found legalistic. However, these Calvinists seemed to have a deeper and more analytic grasp on Scripture, so I have been torn for a number of years as to which path is the most Scriptural. Currently, I'm LCMS, who I think have more balance about these matters. Still, I welcome feedback.

A bit more about my background, for context:

I met my husband at a time when I wasn't in the faith. He can best be described these days as a "noble agnostic." He gives me choice in my faith, but as a secular liberal, he really hates patriarchal systems, so my concern about submission etc. seems foreign to him.

Since the turmoil with my Pentecostal-ish family and the Calvinists, I've tried to pray and study Scriptures and theology, and I believe conservative Lutheranism has the best balance. But I've seen diversity in the understanding and application of women's roles here, too. My current church and elder pastor warn strongly against those who would view women as property (which seems to be the way my former Calvinist Vision Forum friends viewed women). At the same time, they admirably stand against the secular political left, which would wrongly allow women to change gender, dominate (or else see themselves as equal in every way) to men, make careers their lifelong obsession, etc.

I'm just trying to get the women role thing in Biblical perspective. I've been told I'm unusually logical and systematic for a woman. I also view sex unusually, which caused all kinds of awkwardness especially in the Calvinist circles, where women are generally viewed as asexual robots who need to learn to submit to their husband's desires. Well I'm a nympho who loves handsome men (including my husband, who is the only one upon whom I act upon my desires), and I won't apologize for TMI here because of the dogmatism of the Calvinists, who I believe were too preoccupied with generalities instead of individual variation in this realm. Yes, I understand men are more tempted by sex than women, but again, I'm a nympho, and I don't need lectures on how women need to submit even if they're not "in the mood." I'm ALWAYS in the mood!

Lastly, my husband likes me to work at least part-time. Calvinists often forbid women to work almost entirely. The Lutherans appear to be less dogmatic about this, other than one guy I saw on Facebook who claimed to be LCMS and yet was really against women's right to vote, their right to work, etc. He definitely came across more conservative Calvinist in this realm, but that's not how the pastor at my LCMS views things.

Any further insight into these matters would be appreciated, especially with Scripture in context (everyone loves to quote Scripture in support of their views, but Calvinists in particular often think they have a monopoly on contextual interpretation of Scripture, hence their denouncement of my father and others who they think view Scripture too liberally).

 

[bèlla]

I met my husband at a time when I wasn't in the faith. He can best be described these days as a "noble agnostic." He gives me choice in my faith, but as a secular liberal, he really hates patriarchal systems, so my concern about submission etc. seems foreign to him.

The irony of this is a little funny. I find patriarchy outside the church with secular men and egalitarian types inside of it. I don't have a feminist bone in my body. Needless to say I'm single for a reason. ;-)

I'm just trying to get the women role thing in Biblical perspective. I've been told I'm unusually logical and systematic for a woman. I also view sex unusually, which caused all kinds of awkwardness especially in the Calvinist circles, where women are generally viewed as asexual robots who need to learn to submit to their husband's desires.

I think wiring plays a part in this. I grew up in an environment with traditional roles and male leadership. Everyone was happy in their place. Presentation and class were mainstays of my upbringing as was ladyship. Respectability is important but I'm not an automaton. That's where we part ways. I hope you didn't tell them what you thought.

Well I'm a nympho who loves handsome men (including my husband, who is the only one upon whom I act upon my desires), and I won't apologize for TMI here because of the dogmatism of the Calvinists, who I believe were too preoccupied with generalities instead of individual variation in this realm.

I think sexual repression is a factor for some and I don't believe it's limited to women. Add to it the discomfort of broaching the topic openly for fear of ridicule. I used to listen to Dr. Ruth on Sunday evenings when I was younger. I always liked her ability to address the topic calmly. She wasn't squeamish.

I have a penchant for handsome men with a certain magnetism. ;-)

Any further insight into these matters would be appreciated, especially with Scripture in context (everyone loves to quote Scripture in support of their views, but Calvinists in particular often think they have a monopoly on contextual interpretation of Scripture, hence their denouncement of my father and others who they think view Scripture too liberally).

If you are following the principles of headship then you'd adhere to your husband's guidelines. You can be yielded without being subservient which is what some desire. But that's another conversation.

I've been discussing this on another thread. You might find it helpful.

 

[royal priest]

I am a Calvinist and you may be happy to learn that neither I nor any Calvinists that I know view our wife as property (my wife wouldn't tolerate that very well)
However, you are correct that my wife and I, as Calvinists, do share a patriarchal view on marriage roles.
How that perspective plays itself out is not something anyone should be dogmatic about. Each home is unique and ought to apply the precise role of the wife accordingly. For instance, some wives are better managers than their husbands. A wise husband would allow his wife, if she so desired, to manage the finances. As long it is done under the headship of the husband. In Proverbs 31, we see the husband 'safely trusts her' with such business. In fact, that whole Proverb, as a picture of great significance of the wife in the home, shows there are practically no bounds for her potential in the exercise of her gifts.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi all. I come from a mixed conservative Protestant background. My parents raised me in relative freedom, first in WELS churches, and then later with a heavy Pentecostal vibe (emotional worship, healings, visions, and emphasis on signs of the End Times). I also encountered a group of extremely patriarchal Calvinists who confused me further with their focus on women's roles, which my parents found legalistic. However, these Calvinists seemed to have a deeper and more analytic grasp on Scripture, so I have been torn for a number of years as to which path is the most Scriptural. Currently, I'm LCMS, who I think have more balance about these matters. Still, I welcome feedback.

A bit more about my background, for context:

I met my husband at a time when I wasn't in the faith. He can best be described these days as a "noble agnostic." He gives me choice in my faith, but as a secular liberal, he really hates patriarchal systems, so my concern about submission etc. seems foreign to him.

Since the turmoil with my Pentecostal-ish family and the Calvinists, I've tried to pray and study Scriptures and theology, and I believe conservative Lutheranism has the best balance. But I've seen diversity in the understanding and application of women's roles here, too. My current church and elder pastor warn strongly against those who would view women as property (which seems to be the way my former Calvinist Vision Forum friends viewed women). At the same time, they admirably stand against the secular political left, which would wrongly allow women to change gender, dominate (or else see themselves as equal in every way) to men, make careers their lifelong obsession, etc.

I'm just trying to get the women role thing in Biblical perspective. I've been told I'm unusually logical and systematic for a woman. I also view sex unusually, which caused all kinds of awkwardness especially in the Calvinist circles, where women are generally viewed as asexual robots who need to learn to submit to their husband's desires. Well I'm a nympho who loves handsome men (including my husband, who is the only one upon whom I act upon my desires), and I won't apologize for TMI here because of the dogmatism of the Calvinists, who I believe were too preoccupied with generalities instead of individual variation in this realm. Yes, I understand men are more tempted by sex than women, but again, I'm a nympho, and I don't need lectures on how women need to submit even if they're not "in the mood." I'm ALWAYS in the mood!

Lastly, my husband likes me to work at least part-time. Calvinists often forbid women to work almost entirely. The Lutherans appear to be less dogmatic about this, other than one guy I saw on Facebook who claimed to be LCMS and yet was really against women's right to vote, their right to work, etc. He definitely came across more conservative Calvinist in this realm, but that's not how the pastor at my LCMS views things.

Any further insight into these matters would be appreciated, especially with Scripture in context (everyone loves to quote Scripture in support of their views, but Calvinists in particular often think they have a monopoly on contextual interpretation of Scripture, hence their denouncement of my father and others who they think view Scripture too liberally).

I say ignore Calvinism as such. Since you are logical and systematic, study up on Reformed Doctrine, which is not quite the same thing as Calvinism. You will, of course find much the very same, but anyway, study it for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

As for the submission of the woman to the man thing, it is interesting how wrong a woman who thinks she believes in that can treat a man. Study Christ and his submission to the Father, and the submission (and status) of the Church to Christ, to learn what you can there.

READ. And mostly the Scriptures. Large portions at once, not devotionals.

 

[kdm1984]

I hope you didn't tell them what you thought.

Oh I did. It was a recurring theme on their blogs, social media, etc. that "you women don't know what it's like when guys see beautiful women! Women don't respond visually. Men are tempted by different sins than women!" I asked them to explain my reactions to these kinds of guys...



I mean, really...

Humor aside, even Scripture talks about men's appearances when they are striking. Absalom was considered flawless-looking from head to toe, and the people of Israel marveled over it (2 Samuel 14:25).

 

[bèlla]

Oh I did. It was a recurring theme on their blogs, social media, etc. that "you women don't know what it's like when guys see beautiful women! Women don't respond visually. Men are tempted by different sins than women!" I asked them to explain my reactions to these kinds of guys...

They're correct. Most women don't have an aesthetic preference. I always have. But I've been in secular settings and the same holds true. And many don't like pretty men. They prefer rugged handsomeness. I've always been a TDH girl. Tall, dark and handsome. But a blonde will catch my eye every now and then.

I've never discussed sex with Christian women. They'd probably put me on the prayer list.