Women's roles: How men from differerent backgrounds (Christian and non) view things

[Ttalkkugjil]

My scores on the feeling-thinking and judging-perceiving continuums are so ambiguous it can go either way. I really have no strong preferences. I think because I can see both approaches at once most of the time.

My dad is an INTJ, definitely. He was an accountant.

Have you considered the cognitive functions - FiNeSiTe vs. NiTeFiSe?

 

[FireDragon76]

Have you considered the cognitive functions - FiNeSiTe vs. ?

I'll have to research those distinctions. Do you have any information about them?

I was diagnosed with Asperger's as an adult, so maybe that accounts for the unusual personality. When I did the typical storyboard test for autism, I got a very high score. Perhaps that's why I'm not a very judgmental person, when I look at situations, "theory of mind" does not immediately jump in as it does for other people.

I worked with a therapist for a while that also said I wasn't the typical adult with autism, as I have a deeper understanding of my own emotional life than what is typical. I spent alot of time years ago meditating and doing yoga, perhaps that helped a great deal.

I've always felt like an alien in a human body, TBH. Spock or Mr. Data were my favorite Star Trek characters, the ones I related to the most. In fact my parents made jokes about that as a kid, I would talk like those character from Star Trek sometimes. They never made the connection in their mind to me having a developmental disability, however, until I just didn't fit into the conventional adult world at all. I've always felt uneasy about gender roles, too, like I never quite fit in there.

I did this course at a local university some years ago, it was somewhat experimental, trying to rehabilitate people with autism and developmental disorders through communications lessons. They made us play group games and watch sitcoms and trying to understand sarcasm, primarily. They also would criticize many things about my behavior, little details. It felt like a giant guessing gaming, a constant act. One time I just broke down in tears from all the self-criticism it was inducing, and I quit (it was a rough time in general in my life, esp. as I was becoming estranged from the Orthodox Church). I probably just benefited more from the group games that the crazy stuff of trying to make me essentially pass for their idea of normal.

A therapist I had, at the time, said that was probably for the best that I quit, as sarcasm is not a nice thing anyways. It's better to focus on your strengths than learning things that are ugly in other people like that, he said.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I'll have to research those distinctions. Do you have any information about them?

Cognitive Function Test

I've always felt like an alien in a human body, TBH. Spock or Mr. Data were my favorite Star Trek characters, the ones I related to the most.

As a kid I was a fan of McCoy on the original Star Trek. However, I didn't really identify with anyone on Trek until Voyager's EMH.

Spock's an ISTJ and Data's an INTP - so perhaps they serve as clues that you're a Thinker rather than a Feeler.

 

[FireDragon76]

Cognitive Function Test



As a kid I was a fan of McCoy on the original Star Trek. However, I didn't really identify with anyone on Trek until Voyager's EMH.

It makes sense you would identify with them. The EMH fit the " learning to be human" Trek trope, but his personality was very different.

I liked Seven of Nine alot on Voyager, she was the one I identified the most with, and they actually did a good job humanizing a character who was essentially eye candy. I also liked the EMH doctor, those two were probably the ones I identified the most with.

Spock's an ISTJ and Data's an INTP - so perhaps they serve as clues that you're a Thinker rather than a Feeler.

I probably do lean in that direction.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

It makes sense you would identify with them. The EMH fit the " learning to be human" Trek trope, but his personality was very different.

I liked Seven of Nine alot on Voyager, she was the one I identified the most with, and they actually did a good job humanizing a character who was essentially eye candy. I also liked the EMH doctor, those two were probably the ones I identified the most with.



I probably do lean in that direction.

Seven of Nine is a clear INTJ - so there you go. Curious - did you not identify with Picard? He's also an INTJ.

I never liked Seven, because she replaced one of my favorite characters, Kes - an INFP. Most people thought Seven improved the show. I would rather have had Kes continue on.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, I took that test on the link you gave and it says my most pronounced cognitive function is "Introverted Feeling".

I think that lines up with tests I have taken in the past.

 

[FireDragon76]

Seven of Nine is a clear INTJ - so there you go. Curious - did you not identify with Picard? He's also an INTJ.

I never liked Seven, because she replaced one of my favorite characters, Kes - an INFP. Most people thought Seven improved the show. I would rather have had Kes continue on.

Sometimes I actually identified with Q! He particularly brought Picard's pompous, self-righteous side to light.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think I identify with Seven more because of her experience being alien, than necessarily because of her personality.

Kess was never a strong enough personality. I think that's one reason I liked Picard or Q. I like colorful characters like that.

 

[Paidiske]

Honestly, I think trying to assign personality types to fictional characters - who weren't necessarily even written very consistently - is getting to the point of diminishing return for that particular type of tool.

Coming back to women's roles... or even non-fictional roles... one thing I've observed over the years is that being in ministry has forced me to operate more strongly in the ES area than I did before. I've always been an INFJ, but these days I score much more weakly as I and N, and I think that's largely because ministry has changed my "normal" so much.

 

[rjs330]

Men and women are built differently as a generality. I'm not talking just physical appearance. I'm talking the brain. As such they generally pursue different roles in a society. It's not a matter of one is lesser than the other. Women are more prone to seek nurturing roles like grade school teachers nurses and such. Men are more prone to seek out the more physical jobs like carpentry or linear thinking jobs like engineering. It is more likely that the mother will want to stay home to raise their child than the father. And that's okay. It doesn't mean anyone is less than the other. Like I said it's a generality. Of course some women are driven to work outside the home and some men really want to be a nurse. But predominantly it's the other way around.

 

[FireDragon76]

Men and women are built differently as a generality. I'm not talking just physical appearance. I'm talking the brain. As such they generally pursue different roles in a society. It's not a matter of one is lesser than the other. Women are more prone to seek nurturing roles like grade school teachers nurses and such.

Even if that were true, that doesn't mean they would actually be competent. We aren't animals, we are reasoning creatures and we should engage in actual roles that we are good at, not fall into crude stereotypes. TBH, my own mom was not particularly good at nurturing, and I suspect that's probably because she has soft signs of some autism spectrum condition and was never aware that was an area she needed to work on herself (emotional intelligence).


And the idea that men can't be nurturing is just not true. Remember this guy?

or maybe this guy?

Men are more prone to seek out the more physical jobs like carpentry or linear thinking jobs like engineering. It is more likely that the mother will want to stay home to raise their child than the father. And that's okay. It doesn't mean anyone is less than the other. Like I said it's a generality. Of course some women are driven to work outside the home and some men really want to be a nurse. But predominantly it's the other way around.

Now days women do those jobs too increasingly, freed from the stereotypes that those are only men's work.

 

[kdm1984]

Niednagel typed Mr. Rogers as an ENFJ. They are kind of the ultimate nurturer type. It's a type that conservative Christian culture especially prefers in women. ENFJ women are the ultimate June Cleaver 1950s housewives.

He thought I was ENTP while I and other close associates vouched for INTP. ENTPs are too jack-of-all-tradesy and competent at multiple things. I'm tactless, slow, and much more hair-splitting than ENTP. Either way, I don't have a "feminine" Brain Type.

 

[FireDragon76]

Niednagel typed Mr. Rogers as an ENFJ. They are kind of the ultimate nurturer type. It's a type that conservative Christian culture especially prefers in women. ENFJ women are the ultimate June Cleaver 1950s housewives.

He thought I was ENTP while I and other close associates vouched for INTP. ENTPs are too jack-of-all-tradesy and competent at multiple things. I'm tactless, slow, and much more hair-splitting than ENTP. Either way, I don't have a "feminine" Brain Type.

Keep in mind those things are more descriptive than prescriptive.

Years ago I used to be an INTJ consistently, but now I'm an INFP, with F bit being fairly dominant. My personality has changed as I have matured and had different life experiences.

American Evangelicals ideals of men have actually changed over the years. You are right for a while it was the Ned Flanders types but in the late 90's, it started becoming more of the Duck Dynasty types, and after 9/11, it seemed like warriors and highly patriarchal figures became en vogue. It really depended on the whims of book publishers, I think (LOL).

 

[kdm1984]

Niednagel says type is fixed from birth and doesn't change. He says most people are ENTP (40-80% of the populace) and that ENTPs frequently change and mistype themselves on personality tests because their minds are so meandering.

 

[FireDragon76]

Niednagel says type is fixed from birth and doesn't change. He says most people are ENTP (40-80% of the populace) and that ENTPs frequently change and mistype themselves on personality tests because their minds are so meandering.

Well, it could be most peoples don't change, but mine has. I think different than I used to. At one time I was alot more rigid and had greater difficulty empathizing with anybody back in my late 20's. I was also extremely shy and self-conscious.

Of course, years ago, after I spent about eight years exploring alot of meditation and churches, I went to a therapist that practiced Jungian psychodynamic therapy that just told me, "You are relatively enlightened and actualized, most people are not". So maybe there is something to that. The Jungian stuff was interesting, it actually brought me back to taking Christianity seriously, but initially through Jungian psychology. I understood how a symbolic understanding of reality could be appropriate, because I did so much work with my daydreaming and dreams. Before I was just hard set on a sort of rationalistic approach because I had been so burned in the Orthodox church, I was anti-mystical. I realized that yes, I was happy and was finally free thinking for the first time in a long time, but there was still a spiritual dimension to life. Life felt very flat, like it was missing another dimension altogether.

 

[kdm1984]

He insists that it's inborn and cannot change except through rare epigenetics interference around birth.

The very fact that you think it has changed is ironically classically indicative of ENTP thinking, according to Niednagel. ENTPs are very malleable, especially in the long-range. They may be passionately convinced of something, and be rigid for awhile, and then decide against it later. This is considered classic thinking and behavior for ENTP.

But the problem I have with his system is, if so many people are this generic type, then what grand meaning does the 16 type system really have? He seems to have had the most success applying it to athletes and motor skills. Outside of that realm, it doesn't appear to have tons of useful application, in part because almost everyone is an ENTP.

 

[FireDragon76]

He insists that it's inborn and cannot change except through rare epigenetics interference around birth.

The very fact that you think it has changed is ironically classically indicative of ENTP thinking, according to Niednagel. ENTPs are very malleable, especially in the long-range. They may be passionately convinced of something, and be rigid for awhile, and then decide against it later. This is considered classic thinking and behavior for ENTP.

But the problem I have with his system is, if so many people are this generic type, then what grand meaning does the 16 type system really have? He seems to have had the most success applying it to athletes and motor skills. Outside of that realm, it doesn't appear to have tons of useful application, in part because almost everyone is an ENTP.

Could it be that ENTP is what our culture produces? It seems like the classic American personality. (I'm pretty sure my pastor is an ENTP or ENTJ- he used to be a lawyer).


BTW, there is a notion popular among some that meditation is "brain hacking". I did alot of meditation for hours a day for a few years. I have to wonder if that wasn't responsible for some of the changes.

 

[kdm1984]

Could it be that ENTP is what our culture produces? It seems like the classic American personality.

Yeah I actually came to that conclusion years ago, around 2001, when I was first starting to seriously study his Brain Types theory. He didn't come out with the data on ENTP being so common until 2011 or 2012. But I deduced it because I noticed that America loves extroversion, spontaneity, innovation, ingenuity, freedom, logic, creativity, expressiveness, DIY, risk-taking, arguing, movie drama, things like that. This is true across all spheres, from entertainment to the arts to computing to business to education and everything in between. America especially is highly ENTP, even though they like to think they're traditionalist SJ.

As far as introversion, ENTPs do live inside their heads a lot as NTs, so they can mistake themselves for introverts (most people on Myers-Briggs forums are ENTP, but often believe they're INTP/INTJ/INFP/INFJ), but their high energy and passion for things indicates true biological and neuroscientific extroversion. Introversion, cognitively, actually is associated with slowness (remember, reflecting on matters internally takes lots of time to process -- it shouldn't be done at rapid speed -- that's extroversion), methodicism, energy conservation, lesser eye contact, careful and slow and circumspect speech, and other things people don't realize are correlated with those types. It's so funny to see someone talk to me at a billion miles an hour, and insist that their speedy talkative brains are "introverted" because they claim to think a lot or spend time alone or whatever. Or see all the millions of people on Myers-Briggs forums claim intuition and the rare IN__ types, and yet insist that they're a minority, and that everyone else around them is a Sensing type, LOL.

 

[FireDragon76]

It would not surprise me that this isn't so much genetic so much as something that is epigenetic or learned in early childhood.

When I lived in England I was actually alot more comfortable. There is less stigma attached to being a nerd there, in fact there's a long history of nerds being seen as icons, lots of "geek culture" of all sorts.

 

[Paidiske]

He insists that it's inborn and cannot change except through rare epigenetics interference around birth.

I'd doubt that, given what we know about neuroplasticity.

There's also a question for me about how personality traits interact with spiritual gifts. I'd consider my strongest gift to be discernment; I can often "see" what's going on for people, and in particular group dynamics, long before other people can. How does that relate to being an intuitive personality? Was I given that gift because it dovetailed nicely with my existing strengths, or has it strengthened an intuitive trait which otherwise might not have been so strong, or...?