Women Priests/Pastors

[Strong in Him]

They are absolute truth just remember who your complaint is against.

My complaint is against you. You posted these verses - so?
Are you saying we have to take them literally? Are you saying they apply to the 21st century just as much as they applied to the first? Are you saying they are a command from God and cannot be changed or questioned?
That's why I said that I don't like it when people post verses, in isolation, with no explanation.

If you are saying these things, it raises many questions.

 

[messianist]

My complaint is against you. You posted these verses - so?
Are you saying we have to take them literally? Are you saying they apply to the 21st century just as much as they applied to the first? Are you saying they are a command from God and cannot be changed or questioned?
That's why I said that I don't like it when people post verses, in isolation, with no explanation.

If you are saying these things, it raises many questions.

I posted truth again remember who your complaining against
Your complaint was against the truth presented, you said you hate not that you don't like and you said single verse, the explanation is right there for all to be seen.

Jesus, the Messiah, is the same yesterday and today—and forever!

scripture is as it was from the beginning

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

 

[Davidnic]

So, if the Popes and the curia decide, one day, that women may be ordained, then what Peter and the curia have bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what they loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven, because Jesus said so.

Except it does not work that way even in Catholic theology. Popes can not decide to make something possible that goes against Scripture and Holy Tradition. Now some of our other Christian brothers and sisters would argue they have, but those debates are separate. The Pope can not wake up and decide That Scripture and Holy Tradition and the informed Dogma from them can be changed.

 

[Strong in Him]

I posted truth again remember who your complaining against
Your complaint was against the truth presented, y

No it wasn't.
I said that I hate it when people post verses out of context and leave without any explanation.

What is the "truth" that you're proclaiming?

 

[bcbsr]

I did not tell you either of those things. I did tell you that Catholics reject your Protestant notion of Biblical authority. Since you’re invoking forum rules I think the only reasonable thing for us to do is to get a moderator involved, so he will either silence me or tell you you’re wrong. I’ll go get one.

You might want to read Post#107 which is from a fellow Catholic of yours, a site advisor who apparently holds a different view than yours concerning scripture.

 

[messianist]

No it wasn't.
I said that I hate it when people post verses out of context and leave without any explanation.

Yes, it was. hate and don't like you are double minded.

 

[JackRT]

you had me up until this point here. I have never in all my research come across anything to suggest what you're suggesting here. Could you provide some sources please?

An excellent source would be
John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991)

Here are his datings for New Testament and concurrent Christian sources:

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. Papyrus Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)


Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)


Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

 

[JackRT]

The Eastern Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome, allows married priests. the only caveat is that you have to have been married prior to being ordained and if you are unmarried when ordained, the same rules as those for Catholic priests apply. So it's not entirely out of the question for something out of the ordinary for the RCC to happen. Who's to say one day a branch of the RCC will have woman priests and be in full communion with the RCC? only time will tell

Time will tell indeed and the motivation will be the lack of vocations. I have an ancient aunt who is a mother superior of her order. Since her retirement she travels most Sundays to nearby parishes which now no longer have priests to serve them. She conducts a worship service, delivers a homily and serves communion. She does everything a priest would do except consecrate the Eucharist. She once said to me with a twinkle in her eye "If the Pope were to declare that tomorrow he would consecrate female priests, by morning I would have kicked, clawed and bitten my way to the head of that very long line of highly qualified and dedicated women." I saw her at a family reunion this past summer and sadly her age now precludes her from this service.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

it got me wondering about everyone's views on female priests/pastors.

Let me know what you think and I'll collect my thoughts and post my views here in a bit

Since it appears the Bible is against it we should always stick to the Bible.

Giving into the world and the flesh and the devil is not a good thing.

M-Bob

 

[ItIsFinished!]

If you're using the word "Pastor" to refer to a female leader of the church and member of clergy; there are thousands of them. There are even female bishops too.
Anglicans, Methodists, URC, Salvation Army and others have female vicars, Ministers or leaders of the congregation - and that's worldwide.

There may be thousands of them as you say, but only in title/label only.
Women are not called to be pastors.

 

[messianist]

Indeed, at the end of the day it comes down entirely to interpretation. You mentioned 1 Timothy 2:12, which is one of the main scriptures used when disallowing women clergy. The major point of contention is whether Paul was giving Timothy a direct order or if he was just stating his personal preference on the matter (notice how his other pronouncements in chapter 2 are all directions--"Women should" or "I want men to" but with 2:12 he says "I do not let"). But for the sake of argument let's say it was a directive, was it a directive specifically for the church at Ephesus or for the universal church as a whole?

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Vicomte13]

The Pope has no authority to be against Scriptures.

The Pope and the Church have the final authority as to what the Scriptures are, what they mean, and to whom and how they apply. Your religion believes that you individually have that authority. Mine says you’re wrong about that. Obviously I think mine is right and yours is wrong, or else I’d convert to yours. And vice-versa.

 

[RaymondG]

In Christ, there is neither male nor female. If we are offended by the look of the one God is speaking through, let us pluck our eyes out. If we are offended by the soft high pitch of the voice God decides to use, let us cut our ears off.

They that walk after the spirit, no longer mind the things of the flesh......

 

[Vicomte13]

But the Catholic church has the power to change a commandment given by God? Fr. Landry makes quite the hypocritical statement here don't you think? While it's not a substance of the sacraments, the sabbath day is nonetheless a forever standing divine statute given by God Himself to Moses for all generations. Yet in the Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine it states:

"Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50."

So the Catholic church doesn't have the power to change what many view as tradition but it does have the power to change a commandment written by the very hand of God?

Interesting....

Yes. The Holy Spirit resides in the Catholic Church, and Jesus gave to the Church the power of the keys, to loose and to bind. When the Catholic Church speaks, it is God speaking. The Holy Spirit is God, and speaks through the prophetic office of the Catholic Church. Thedogmas of the Catholic Church have the same level of authority as Scripture, and having been revealed by God later in time, the overrule Scripture where Scripture and the Catholic dogmas contradict. Sunday worship is one example. Another is the administration of the death penalty. A third is the right to eat blood. God forbade it in the Old Testament, and the Council of Jerusalem continued to forbid it in the new. But in the 800’s AD, to ease the conversion of the Scandinavians, for whom blood is a staple, God ordained through the Church that the prohibition on eating blood was removed, and that blood sausages and puddings, et al, are acceptable food. God always has the power to amend and extend the laws he gives to people. He did from Adam to Noah, from Noah to Moses, and from Moses to Jesus, since Jesus’ ascension, he continues to do so through the Catholic Church. The dogmas and canons of the Church ARE the commandments of God, to us in our times. The Scriptures and past canons are the records of God’s commandments for different people in earlier times. When the Church speaks, that is God speaking now, with the same plenary authority as when Jesus spoke and as when YHWH spoke on Sinai. The Catholic Church is not based on the Bible. The Bible is part of the written records of the Catholic Church.
I know that non-Catholics do not believe this. The majority of he world’s Christians are and have always been Catholics. Catholics try to be nice in this day and age, and avoid saying things directly that inflame other Christians because God revealed through Vatican 2 that we are to work to get along with all faiths. And in that light, reminding people that Sola Scripture is heresy is not helpful. So we don’t talk like that anymore. Unless provoked anyway.

 

[EJ M]

Catholic teaching hasn't changed on this. You can't reach salvation through the Quran or by being a good atheist.

It is unfortunate, if not sad, that people cannot comprehend that although Islam or being virtuous cannot save you, they do not condemn you. Saying you need Jesus to be saved is not saying isolated pagans tribes all go to hell.

Who are we to believe, you or Pope Francis?
149. Do Atheists Go to Heaven? Pope Francis Says Yes - Vatican Files

 

[Vicomte13]

They call the style of Christianity practiced today "Pauline Christianity" for a reason. He walked thousands upon thousands of miles and laid the groundwork for the modern church. Paul was THE original church planter. He wrote 13 books of the NT and influenced the teachings of every church of the Apostolic era. Saying he didn't have the authority to make churchwide proclamations is ludicrous at best.

He DID have that authority, by the Holy Spirit. To say that Paul’s pronouncements of the First Century bind the Holy Spirit for all time, and that the Holy Spirit does not speak through the Church now, and that the Holy Spirit cannot and does not revise Paul’s,Peter’s, the Apostles’ and the Church’s earlier understandings is heresy. It denies the authority of God, the Holy Spirit, and seeks to bind God. That cannot be done. It’s ludicrous. The Bible is not God. Paul is not God. They recorded God’s revelations by the spirit in those times and places. But God the Holy Spirit continues to repose in the Church, where Jesus said it always would, and when the Holy Spirit speaks later in time for people and circumstances of that later time, THAT is the law of God. Just as the food laws and Sabbath, ordained by God and recorded in Scripture were later revised by God through the Church, so too can the Holy Spirit ordain that women shall be priests and heads of household, reversing Paul. It’s a heresy that places the Bible above the Holy Spirit and forbids God to make adjustments exactly as he did throughout Biblical times.
Of course Catholics and Protestants cannot agree on this. The heresy that the bile is above the Church, which is to say above the visible manifestation of God on earth, is the fundamental heresy that divides our religions. We’re not going to accomplish anything by repeating over and over that the ofher side are heretics speaking nonsense, though we have the habit of five centuries to encourage us to fight yet another round of an intractable Christian civil war.

The better answer is to simply acknowledge that each side of this thinks differently, both are absolutely certain that we are right and that God agrees with us against the other side. Therefore, we cannot resolve the difference. God told the Catholics at Vatican 2 to work with the Protestants ANYWAY, to acknowledge the common truth we share, to not emphasize the heresies but to be diplomatic and seek fraternal peace and goodwill rather than repeat the cycles of fratricidal fury. God was right about this, of course. But it’s tough, because the premises of the Churches are different, and Christians are a turbulent and combative people.

 

[EJ M]

Yes. The Holy Spirit resides in the Catholic Church, and Jesus gave to the Church the power of the keys, to loose and to bind. When the Catholic Church speaks, it is God speaking. The Holy Spirit is God, and speaks through the prophetic office of the Catholic Church. Thedogmas of the Catholic Church have the same level of authority as Scripture, and having been revealed by God later in time, the overrule Scripture where Scripture and the Catholic dogmas contradict. Sunday worship is one example. Another is the administration of the death penalty. A third is the right to eat blood. God forbade it in the Old Testament, and the Council of Jerusalem continued to forbid it in the new. But in the 800’s AD, to ease the conversion of the Scandinavians, for whom blood is a staple, God ordained through the Church that the prohibition on eating blood was removed, and that blood sausages and puddings, et al, are acceptable food. God always has the power to amend and extend the laws he gives to people. He did from Adam to Noah, from Noah to Moses, and from Moses to Jesus, since Jesus’ ascension, he continues to do so through the Catholic Church. The dogmas and canons of the Church ARE the commandments of God, to us in our times. The Scriptures and past canons are the records of God’s commandments for different people in earlier times. When the Church speaks, that is God speaking now, with the same plenary authority as when Jesus spoke and as when YHWH spoke on Sinai. The Catholic Church is not based on the Bible. The Bible is part of the written records of the Catholic Church.
I know that non-Catholics do not believe this. The majority of he world’s Christians are and have always been Catholics. Catholics try to be nice in this day and age, and avoid saying things directly that inflame other Christians because God revealed through Vatican 2 that we are to work to get along with all faiths. And in that light, reminding people that Sola Scripture is heresy is not helpful. So we don’t talk like that anymore. Unless provoked anyway.

So do you agree with Pope Francis that atheists can go to heaven?

 

[Vicomte13]

Who are we to believe, you or Pope Francis?
149. Do Atheists Go to Heaven? Pope Francis Says Yes - Vatican Files

God, who spoke at Vatican 2, which Francis faithfully repeats. Atheists of goodwill and moral character may be saved by God.

 

[Vicomte13]

So do you agree with Pope Francis that atheists can go to heaven?

Of course. God has spoken, at Vatican 2, through the Church. Who am I to tell God he’s wrong?

 

[Strong in Him]

No it wasn't.
Yes, it was. hate and don't like you are double minded.

What I hate is that sometimes people post verses from the Bible, out of context and won't explain what they mean or how they understand the verse(s). Even now, you haven't answered my questions - do we take them literally and apply them literally today - but just resort to insults.