Women Priests/Pastors

[Simplistik]

BTW, the head covering thing is not cultural but that's another topic.

the head covering thing was definitely cultural...how was it not?

 

[Simplistik]

Egalitarian would be the most common alternative, I would think.

One can be fully equal in the eyes of the church while still having clearly define roles for each sex though

I don't see why not. It's important to be clear about your roles and how they interact.

in hindsight it was a poor example, I can see how the roles would be clearly defined and one would have to compartmentalize and respond to each situation accordingly. Still though, I see men and women having clearly defined roles in scripture and being a Pastor/Teacher/head of a church is not a role for women. But while I don't support it or agree with it, I'll happily sit in on a woman's sermon or discuss theology w/ a female pastor. I can give respect where it's due, we are all God's children after all

 

[Simplistik]

The problem with being infallible is that it makes it so very difficult to admit when you are wrong. I would love for your 30 year timeline to be correct but it may be much longer. But there is a very good chance that within 30 years married men will be routinely ordained, perhaps even bishops. Time heals old wounds but time moves very slowly.

The Eastern Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome, allows married priests. the only caveat is that you have to have been married prior to being ordained and if you are unmarried when ordained, the same rules as those for Catholic priests apply. So it's not entirely out of the question for something out of the ordinary for the RCC to happen. Who's to say one day a branch of the RCC will have woman priests and be in full communion with the RCC? only time will tell

 

[Simplistik]

If you look at the context Paul is instructing Timothy concerning assigning positions of authority in the Church. Right after that passage Paul says, "if a man seeks the office of an overseer{Or, bishop}, he desires a good work. The overseer therefore must be ..."

absolutely...in any location where church leadership is discussed, whether they be elders, overseers, deacons, etc, it's always in the masculine...he must be married, he must be in good standing with the community, etc.

 

[Simplistik]

Actually, in the Greek it's ei tis, if anyone... "man" is a faulty translation.

yes but then it does say "a good work he [epithomei] desires". and it goes on to say that he must be a husband with one wife and it goes on asexually until verse 6 where the masculine form of "to take care of" (epimeleomai) is used when asking if he can't care for his own home how will he care for the home of god?

 

[Simplistik]

So you're saying that scripture is not binding to the Catholic Church. I doubt that's the official Catholic position. You're telling me that Catholics reject Paul's writings as the Word of God. That's a violation of the forum rules.

you're hearing what you want to hear. just because whoever you're arguing with doesn't agree with your interpretation of Paul's teaching doesn't mean they are rejecting Paul's teachings and in saying that they are you are blatantly implying that your interpretation is infallible.

 

[Paidiske]

yes but then it does say "a good work he [epithomei] desires". and it goes on to say that he must be a husband with one wife and it goes on asexually until verse 6 where the masculine form of "to take care of" (epimeleomai) is used when asking if he can't care for his own home how will he care for the home of god?

Well, I can see why the author didn't say long-windedly "he must be the husband of one wife - or if it's a woman the wife of one husband" but could understand the first to be a clear instruction to faithful monogamy.

What do you mean about masculine forms of verbs? Verbs in Greek don't have masculine and feminine forms.

 

[Strong in Him]

Women cannot be Pastors.

Not only can they be pastors; they are.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't think women make good leaders

Yet there are, and have been, many female leaders in the world - Angela Merkle, Teresa May, Margaret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, and many, many more.

that is what a preacher is-leader of his congregation.

Not at all - the church has always had lay (non ordained) preachers.

So no I don't think they should be pastors or priests for that reason.

Fine, but that's only based on your opinion that women don't do a good job of leading.

 

[Strong in Him]

Women pastors do not exist.

Obviously they do.
There are many around; I know some of them and have benefited from their ministries.

The Word of God is quite clear about this discussion.

No it isn't, that's just it.
Do you really think there'd be so many debates if it were - debates even between men and male theologians?

It isn't even remotely debatable.

There have been many, many threads about it in this forum alone, never mind all the other forums that are on the 'net - and many hours of discussion and prayer in synods and councils worldwide.
Clearly is is very debatable.

 

[Strong in Him]

There are no female pastors whatsoever.

If you're using the word "Pastor" to refer to a female leader of the church and member of clergy; there are thousands of them. There are even female bishops too.
Anglicans, Methodists, URC, Salvation Army and others have female vicars, Ministers or leaders of the congregation - and that's worldwide.

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree 100%. In the Kingdom of God, men and women are seen as equals in the eyes of God but both have separately defined, distinct, individual roles and responsibilities in the Kingdom.

Isn't God able to call whoever he wants to serve him?
He called Deborah to be judge over all Israel.
He called Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Isaiah's wife and Philip's 4 daughters to prophesy and take God's word to men.
Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection - all the men were in hiding.
Paul worked alongside women, see Romans 16. He chose a woman to take his letter to the Romans, and was aware that a woman had taught Apollos. He included, and commended, women.

 

[bcbsr]

Are you aware that επισκοπης/episkopés the Greek word translated "bishop" is feminine, not masculine?And as has already been pointed out the vs. does not say "if a man" it say "if anyone."

And do you know that "τις" in "ει τις" is masculine and thus translate "a man".
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife." Did you know that "husband" is masculine?
Did you know the word "blameless" is masculine?

 

[Strong in Him]

It says to be qualified one must be "the husband of but one wife". Obviously talking about a man.

If you take this literally, it says he must be the husband of one wife, so a priest/Minister MUST be a husband, MUST have children, MUST be able to control them, be sober, not have a temper etc etc.
Yet how often are these things noticed and acted on? How often have men been turned away because someone has said, "sorry your wife is infertile but Scripture says you MUST have children to be a leader"? I would guess never.
When it comes to gender, people are quick to point to this verse and say "oh look, it says 'husband', which can only refer to a man; therefore it is a command that only men can be Pastors/leaders/Ministers".
Wrong.

 

[Reconciliation and Truth]

Please, No;
I only posted the womenpriest link to refute the post by David Cabrera; Quote
"There will never be Catholic or Orthodox women priests"
Lets never forget, many pre Vatican II Popes said "outside the catholic Church there in no salvation"

Catholic teaching hasn't changed on this. You can't reach salvation through the Quran or by being a good atheist.

It is unfortunate, if not sad, that people cannot comprehend that although Islam or being virtuous cannot save you, they do not condemn you. Saying you need Jesus to be saved is not saying isolated pagans tribes all go to hell.

 

[messianist]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[Strong in Him]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

And?
I hate it when people quote a single verse, out of context, and run off without any explanation.

 

[messianist]

And?
I[hate] single verse ?

They are absolute truth just remember who your complaint is against.

 

[Vicomte13]

So you're saying that scripture is not binding to the Catholic Church. I doubt that's the official Catholic position. You're telling me that Catholics reject Paul's writings as the Word of God. That's a violation of the forum rules.

I did not tell you either of those things. I did tell you that Catholics reject your Protestant notion of Biblical authority. Since you’re invoking forum rules I think the only reasonable thing for us to do is to get a moderator involved, so he will either silence me or tell you you’re wrong. I’ll go get one.

 

[Daniel C]

And Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot, Hitler, Saddam Hussein etc weren't? What's your point?

Of course,not all men have been good leaders but that isn't the discussion and proves my point about lack of female leadership and accountability,as soon as something doesn't go there way they deflect onto men. Don't deflect and address it directly.

No, actually, people on both side of the debate have paid tribute to her perseverance and tenacity. She has got us a deal; if it is scuppered it will be because, mostly, men were arrogant enough to think that they could do/could have done better.

And yet a large part of her own party refuse to follow her leadership.Perhaps because she's not good at it?

Because the male PM who gave us a referendum and promised to lead the country out of the EU, if that is what they wanted - bottled it and resigned.
But we do now have a PM who openly talks about her faith, says how important it is to her and talks about Christian values. Who knows that this isn't what God planned all along?

I wasn't aware Cameron said he would personal deliver Brexit. Where did he say that? And if may claims to be a christian why isn't she a christian apologist? All things are ordained by God including nations however that does not me they are Holy.

i) She was our first woman PM and won 3 terms of office, so of course she was a leader.
ii) I don't come from the NW, I just happen to live here at the moment.

Serving in a role for a long time but doing a terrible job at it does mean you walk away with credibility.

So because you haven't heard of the female prime minister who led India for many years, her role is "insignificant"?

I heard of all the others but not her......

But they are not the same thing at all, so you should have been specific.

Most people understand what a preacher is.

You said "I don't think women make good leaders" - that is your opinion.

Coupled with the fact we can't identify any effective female leaders past or present.

If you were to look at ALL women who have ever held a leadership role, listed their successes and evaluated how they led, for how long and what decisions they made, you MAY be proved right. But you didn't do, or offer, that.

Well instead of that you offered some high profile women who you believed were good women leaders but after closer examination the examples fell apart.

History would disagree with you.
Years ago, monarchs had more power than they do now, and Victoria and Elizabeth I were long serving queens. As a matter of fact Queen Elizabeth II is our longest serving monarch ever.
God can also choose whom he wants to serve him, whether or not others consider them to be good choices. Look at Deborah, who was a judge in Israel for 40 years, and Esther who was a queen, influenced the king, saved the Jews from destruction and whose feast is still celebrated by them every year - Purim.

Again,just because someone serves in a role for a long time doesn't validate their leadership. Kings and Queens get their position handed down to them by birth and just sit on the thrown as worldly rulers.Not very difficult.

Not to mention that leading a nation and military leadership are very different to having oversight of a congregation.
My male Minister does not tell me what to do, what job to get, how to spend my money etc etc. I am not forced to attend the church he leads; I can go to another. I could move house, or abroad, without his permission. In tat sense, he does not lead me at all. He leads worship sometimes; he leads church meetings, teaches us church doctrine and proclaims and teaches the faith - he doesn't force people to believe and accept it



Except that we're talking about the church, not other countries.
It is God's church, God's kingdom, God's work, God's will and God is the One who saves, calls and gives us gifts. Are you saying that he can't call women to do certain things, serve him in a certain way or will never give us certain gifts?

Biblically speaking I see no evidence that women should be leading the house of God. To reinforce this I was looking at real life examples to see how they get on and it appears not very effectively.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]