women pastors.

[Sammy-San]

People who dont think they are doing wrong-its like saying its sexist for women to have to cover their chests.

 

[JackRT]

People who dont think they are doing wrong-its like saying its sexist for women to have to cover their chests.

And what is your point?

 

[anonymsoua_Chicka12]

I personally think it's wrong.

 

[JackRT]

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today.
Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

 

[Sammy-San]

I personally think it's wrong.

God doesnt care how we feel.

Its like why does God use us to save others when nobody is hopeless and our love for others souls is limited (we fear rejection). To my limited mind its very hard to understand.

 

[Sammy-San]

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today.
Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

Chest exposure on women is immodest, but most people wouldnt say that it is sexist to say that.

 

[step_by_step]

I personally think it's wrong.

Why? I don't see anything wrong with it. I know a few women pastors who are lovely people and very devout Christians. If they're preaching the word of God, who's to say it's wrong just because they're women? Are women not supposed to minister to the world?

 

[TheLostCoin]

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today.
Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

Yet despite the fact that women played such an early role in the Church - in fact, Mary Magdalene is responsible for so much Evangelism, the Eastern Orthodox Churches label her "Equal to the Apostles" - and most cults were male-only at the time (see Mithraism) such that Christendom became a very female-heavy cult when it started - Christ Himself, nor the Apostles, never appointed any women to leadership roles of the Apostles, the Episcopate, Presbyters, Elders, Deacons, etc.

Your argument assumes that our own wisdom has superseded that of the Apostles and Christ, including their quote on quote "patriarchal biases", and that our own structure of society and gender norms, and our own societal biases, is so pure and without flaws to such an extent that we need to change the flawless Church Herself to conform to it.

Obviously nonsense.

Gender roles are not just arbitrarily constructed to an extent that they can just suddenly be deconstructed and demolished through whatever mainstream society deems as popular - they have been declared so by God after the Fall of Man, and the Apostle Paul himself.

There was a Traditional Catholic priest who once said "Our world needs to conform to Christ, not Him to it."

 

[Sammy-San]

Why? I don't see anything wrong with it. I know a few women pastors who are lovely people and very devout Christians. If they're preaching the word of God, who's to say it's wrong just because they're women? Are women not supposed to minister to the world?

Its not sexism-its because of how sin entered the world and those women pastors would have done the same.

 

[YanKee Gal]

In the old testament there was an enemy approaching Judges 4 Deborah and Jael. The men shrinked back so God used the prophetess. Yes she was one before she lead Israel into victory. In the temple where Christ was being dedicated as a child there was Anna. Women were prophetess in the old testament and even in the new. Jesus himself said now therefore there is no more jew nor gentile male nor female for all are one in Christ Jesus. So, God can use anyone. If you read the epistles of Paul he says I say, in my opinion. He did not say thus sayeth Jesus.
It says a minister is to be a man married to one woman. A minister and a prophetess are two different offices, gifts of the spirit. In the Catholic Church they still allow woman deaconness to be ordained. It is biblical but the male heirachy do not like it.
If Jesus sets us free then we are free indeed. Times have changed. In the old testament men wore long robes now they wear pants. They wore long beards and hair now it is clean shaven. My point is this: Jesus set us free from the law. IF God allowed women to be used in the old testament and even in the new then who are we to limit what God has given us? My thoughts. Be Blessed.

 

[step_by_step]

Its not sexism-its because of how sin entered the world and those women pastors would have done the same.

And men would not have?

 

[TheLostCoin]

Why? I don't see anything wrong with it. I know a few women pastors who are lovely people and very devout Christians. If they're preaching the word of God, who's to say it's wrong just because they're women? Are women not supposed to minister to the world?

On the contrary, the Word of God says women are to be silent in the Churches (1 Corinthians 14). Unless you assume that the Apostle Paul and God are bigots.

 

[Dave-W]

Chest exposure on women is immodest, but most people wouldnt say that it is sexist to say that.

I read an article earlier today on nudity on high school swim teams during the first half of the 20th century. It was pretty common. (Both guys and girls) It changed about 1960. I would link the article but the pics would violate site rules.

At that point it was NOT considered immodest. Public opinion of such things is very changeable over time.

But to get back to the op, there is nothing wrong with a woman pastor.

 

[TheLostCoin]

It says a minister is to be a man married to one woman. A minister and a prophetess are two different offices, gifts of the spirit. In the Catholic Church they still allow woman deaconness to be ordained. It is biblical but the male heirachy do not like it.

Deaconesses are actually a historical reality that occurred in the Ancient Church - there was often times (for obvious reasons) that women couldn't come to Church to receive the Body and Blood of Christ, so the Deaconesses had the function of transporting the Body and Blood of Christ to the women who couldn't go to Church. In fact, Olympias of Constantinople, was a Deaconess who was a best friend of John Chrysostom, who is canonized as a Saint.

Olympias the Deaconess - Wikipedia

But regardless, they weren't "ordained" or "part of the hierarchy" - they were given their roles without the Laying of the Hands.

It was later suppressed, and the question remains if there is a pastoral need for it - if it isn't just pure unadultered feminism which is dictating how the Church ought to function.

 

[step_by_step]

On the contrary, the Word of God says women are to be silent in the Churches (1 Corinthians 14). Unless you assume that the Apostle Paul and God are bigots.

"The concern of 1 Corinthians 14 is the orderly assembly of the congregation. The church of Corinth was noted for the chaos and lack of order rampant in that assembly (verse 33). Everyone in the church service was participating with whatever expression they desired, whenever they desired, as loudly as they desired. Those with the gift of tongues were speaking simultaneously, and no one was concerned with interpreting what was being said. Those with a revelation from God were shouting out randomly, even if what was said could not be heard above the din, and apparently no one was evaluating what was being offered as prophecy. The meetings were characterized by chaos, and no one was being edified or instructed (see verses 5, 12, and 19). To remedy this problem, Paul instructs a number of people/groups to “be quiet” at certain times and under certain conditions."

"Women are allowed to pray and prophesy in church in 1 Corinthians 11:5, so 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 cannot be an absolute prohibition against all types of speaking by all women at all times."

You have to look at context instead of just choosing verses at random to make them mean what you want them to.

 

[Dave-W]

its because of how sin entered the world

You mean how a MAN chose to disobey?

 

[TheLostCoin]

"The concern of 1 Corinthians 14 is the orderly assembly of the congregation. The church of Corinth was noted for the chaos and lack of order rampant in that assembly (verse 33). Everyone in the church service was participating with whatever expression they desired, whenever they desired, as loudly as they desired. Those with the gift of tongues were speaking simultaneously, and no one was concerned with interpreting what was being said. Those with a revelation from God were shouting out randomly, even if what was said could not be heard above the din, and apparently no one was evaluating what was being offered as prophecy. The meetings were characterized by chaos, and no one was being edified or instructed (see verses 5, 12, and 19). To remedy this problem, Paul instructs a number of people/groups to “be quiet” at certain times and under certain conditions."

"Women are allowed to pray and prophesy in church in 1 Corinthians 11:5, so 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 cannot be an absolute prohibition against all types of speaking by all women at all times."

You have to look at context instead of just choosing verses at random to make them mean what you want them to.

What are your sources?

And regardless, there's a clear difference between praying / prophesying and having a hierarchical role of ministering in the Church.

 

[TheLostCoin]

You mean how a MAN chose to disobey?

It was the woman first, and then Adam, who were both equally guilty.

 

[YanKee Gal]

Deaconesses are actually a historical reality that occurred in the Ancient Church - there was often times (for obvious reasons) that women couldn't come to Church to receive the Body and Blood of Christ, so the Deaconesses had the function of transporting the Body and Blood of Christ to the women who couldn't go to Church. In fact, Olympias of Constantinople, was a Deaconess who was a best friend of John Chrysostom, who is canonized as a Saint.

Olympias the Deaconess - Wikipedia

But regardless, they weren't "ordained" or "part of the hierarchy" - they were given their roles without the Laying of the Hands.

It was later suppressed, and the question remains if there is a pastoral need for it - if it isn't just pure unadultered feminism which is dictating how the Church ought to function.

I personally know of two Deaconness in the United States of America, in the Roman Catholic Church. They studied for it. And they are Roman Catholic Deaconness. Our Lady of Grace Church.

 

[step_by_step]

What are your sources?

And regardless, there's a clear difference between praying / prophesying and having a hierarchical role of ministering in the Church.

Look it up yourself, it is not that hard.

Why would a woman not be allowed to teach in the church? As you said yourself, Adam was just as guilty in the fall of man, so why should we trust their judgement more?