women pastors.

[TheLostCoin]

I personally know of two Deaconness in the United States of America, in the Roman Catholic Church. They studied for it. And they are Roman Catholic Deaconness. Our Lady of Grace Church.

I believe in Orthodoxy, and the Alexandrian Church has Deaconesses. Nobody questions their right to do so, but it's sparked debate whether or not there is truly a pastoral need in Africa, or if it's just gender ideology (for ideology should not be dictating the Gospel, rather the Gospel dictating ideology).

 

[Silmarien]

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law.

I don't think the Old Testament is quite so clear-cut as that. We have the daughters of Zelophehad demanding (and being granted) inheritance rights in Numbers, we have Deborah in a role of significant authority in Judges, and there are a number of very positive depictions of women throughout Scripture. (Ruth, for instance, though I think the Matriarchs are interesting too.)

The society is obviously patriarchal, but I think the full picture is a lot more complicated than that.

 

[Dave-W]

Psalm 68:11 NIV
The Lord announces the word, and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:

 

[TheLostCoin]

Look it up yourself, it is not that hard.

I don't just trust random Biblical commentaries, and I would like to see where you are getting your quotes from. As I've said, even if it's a legitimate criticism, it doesn't change the historical fact that women had no hierarchical role in the Early Church.

Why would a woman not be allowed to teach in the church? As you said yourself, Adam was just as guilty in the fall of man, so why should we trust their judgement more?

Because women and men received different punishments in different gender roles. Men sweat and work to death for their food, women look to their husband who rules over them, and give pain in childbirth, etc.

 

[step_by_step]

Because women and men received different punishments in the role of different gender roles.

When God tossed them out of the Garden of Eden and told them their punishments, did He say, "And women can't have leadership roles in the church"?

 

[TheLostCoin]

When God tossed them out of the Garden of Eden and told them their punishments, did He say, "And women can't have leadership roles in the church"?

No, but Christ Himself made that determination when He didn't give women roles of hierarchy, and God Himself is not limited by patriarchal bias. After all, Christ was pretty radical for the Pharisees already, with people wanting to stone Him for the things He said.

 

[step_by_step]

No, but Christ Himself made that determination when He didn't give women roles of hierarchy, and God Himself is not limited by patriarchal bias. After all, Christ was pretty radical for the Pharisees already, with people wanting to stone Him for the things He said.

Was there ever a time that God himself specifically said that it is wrong and sinful for a woman to hold a position of leadership in the church? If not, then I will continue to see nothing wrong with a Godly woman leading her church as long as she is walking with Christ and teaching from the Bible.

 

[HosannaHM]

Just wondering as I read this, doesn't saying that patriarchy is evil and wrong imply that God's original design for men and women would also be wrong?

 

[Sammy-San]

You mean how a MAN chose to disobey?

I can understand why you want the truth to be easy.

 

[step_by_step]

I can understand why you want the truth to be easy.

I can't understand why you would ignore the truth

 

[Dave-W]

I can understand why you want the truth to be easy.

Eve was deceived, tricked into eating.
Adam chose free and clear. THAT was the sin.

 

[JackRT]

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

There is a strong tradition in the south of France that Mary Magdalene was the first Christian missionary to that region. This is attested to in a stained glass window in the Cathedral of Marseilles that depicts Mary consecrating a bishop!

 

[Sammy-San]

I read an article earlier today on nudity on high school swim teams during the first half of the 20th century. It was pretty common. (Both guys and girls) It changed about 1960. I would link the article but the pics would violate site rules.

At that point it was NOT considered immodest. Public opinion of such things is very changeable over time.

But to get back to the op, there is nothing wrong with a woman pastor.

I would prefer if that was true, just like how I would prefer nobody went to hell.

 

[HosannaHM]

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

There is a strong tradition in the south of France that Mary Magdalene was the first Christian missionary to that region. This is attested to in a stained glass window in the Cathedral of Marseilles that depicts Mary consecrating a bishop!

Okay I'll bite. I think the issue of women's roles in church is clearer than you are presenting. Since the thread is about female pastors, I'll come out and say it: that doesn't jive with scripture. You have to appeal to some other authority or tradition to decide that we can now have women in authority over men. 1 Timothy 3:1,2 makes it pretty clear that an elder(overseer, bishop, presbyter) must be a man. It's assumed that "pastor" and "elder" are interchangeable terms for church leaders as well.

Paul's letters are clear: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." -1 Timothy 2:12

If the point you are trying to make is that women and men are equal, than I agree completely. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 2:28

You brought some good scriptures out about women being used by God, but your verses don't make women leaders of men. Older women were told to teach younger women. Just because someone meets in the house of a woman like Lydia, it doesn't mean she was the leader of the group. As for some of your other examples, that just appears to be women working and serving alongside men. That doesn't call them elders or pastors. Woman are used by God effectively, and he has designed that they be used for His glory by His grace, as are men. Men are no better than women and vise versa, but men and woman are different and have different roles.

You may have had an entirely different idea with your post than what I've said and if so I'm sorry for misrepresenting what you are saying. Since the thread is about female pastors, I will just finish by encouraging good biblical exegesis. Use the clearer scriptures to interpret the not so clear verses.

 

[JackRT]

Paul's letters are clear: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." -1 Timothy 2:12

To begin with, a great many Bible scholars regard 1 and 2 Timothy plus Titus as pseudopigraphic. That is, they were written in Paul's name but some 60 years after Paul's death but it seems they were written by the same person. Aside from that, the use of the word "I" in the verse above indicates that the writer is giving a personal opinion rather than a universal truth. The writer is speaking out of the deep patriarchy of the 2nd century Mediterranean world. He is reflecting the almost universal cultural mind set of a long ago time in a distant place. Cultures change and patriarchy is dying, very slowly but thank God it is.

 

[Sammy-San]

Okay I'll bite. I think the issue of women's roles in church is clearer than you are presenting. Since the thread is about female pastors, I'll come out and say it: that doesn't jive with scripture. You have to appeal to some other authority or tradition to decide that we can now have women in authority over men. 1 Timothy 3:1,2 makes it pretty clear that an elder(overseer, bishop, presbyter) must be a man. It's assumed that "pastor" and "elder" are interchangeable terms for church leaders as well.

Paul's letters are clear: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." -1 Timothy 2:12

If the point you are trying to make is that women and men are equal, than I agree completely. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 2:28

You brought some good scriptures out about women being used by God, but your verses don't make women leaders of men. Older women were told to teach younger women. Just because someone meets in the house of a woman like Lydia, it doesn't mean she was the leader of the group. As for some of your other examples, that just appears to be women working and serving alongside men. That doesn't call them elders or pastors. Woman are used by God effectively, and he has designed that they be used for His glory by His grace, as are men. Men are no better than women and vise versa, but men and woman are different and have different roles.

You may have had an entirely different idea with your post than what I've said and if so I'm sorry for misrepresenting what you are saying. Since the thread is about female pastors, I will just finish by encouraging good biblical exegesis. Use the clearer scriptures to interpret the not so clear verses.

Analogy-modesty is different

 

[HosannaHM]

Cultures change and patriarchy is dying, very slowly but thank God it is.

Does this make God schizophrenic? He created the patriarchy in Genesis 2. Not to mention that Paul expounds on that in 1 Corinthians 11:3. Unless many scholars(an argument from authority) disagree on Paul writing Corinthians

 

[HosannaHM]

Analogy-modesty is different

I'm gonna be honest: I don't have a clue what you mean

 

[TheLostCoin]

Eve was deceived, tricked into eating.
Adam chose free and clear. THAT was the sin.

Both Adam and Eve are equally responsible, and when God questioned both, they both cast their blame on another. Adam was as much deceived by Eve as Eve was by the serpent. When God asked why Adam ate the fruit, he blamed Eve, and when God asked Eve, she blamed the serpent. All three were cursed.

 

[JackRT]

Does this make God schizophrenic? He created the patriarchy in Genesis 2.

When Genesis was written some 3,000 years ago patriarchy was already strongly entrenched and had been for perhaps several thousand years. It is understandable that the writers would write their national myth out of this understanding.

Not to mention that Paul expounds on that in 1 Corinthians 11:3. Unless many scholars(an argument from authority) disagree on Paul writing Corinthians.

Paul seems to have been somewhat conflicted on the role of women --- sometimes he is open to women in authority but he mostly still patriarchal.

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.

BTW Christians, you and I included, almost always argue from authority. The difference lies in which interpretation we prefer.