Women initiating separation or divorce...

[desi]

Romans 10:9-13

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him form the dead, you shall be saved: for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

For there is no distiction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The Bible also says even Satan and the demons believe in Jesus yet they are doomed to Hell. It is not enough just to believe, if we do not act on that belief then the faith is dead.

 

[desi]

Thank you desi. You just passed a test to prove a point to everyone reading this thread.

I intentionally wanted to see if you could agree with me on anything, even something as realistic as a death of one spouse being an end to a marriage, not that a death made it a failure, simply it's end. Instead of accepting that and passing by it ... you have to reiterate something you previously stated which doesn't have to be interjected here. Still, you seem to want to remain combative. Sad.

Did I pass your test?

Arrogance showing here with the assumption of hell ... that's God decision. Who said hugs and kisses? My, aren't you getting yourself wound up in a knot.

Do you deny God can send people to Hell despite the Bible's teachings in this area? I feel like I'm teaching Sunday school to hostile adults sometimes in this thread.

Jesus died for all our sins, even those we haven't committed yet. No one's hiding desi. You're running amuck here judging everyone with such contempt in your language and approach. Much.

I judge noone, Jesus does that. I merely remind you of his and his father's clear and concise stand on divorce.

Another test and you passed. I knew you'd toss a resume of sorts at us ... thanks for proving my point. Is that supposed to impress? It means nothing to me. Tell me you've struggled with great issues such as homelessness, living within poverty, living with disease, etc ... then we'll talk. To the above? I say pffffffttttt! I can match it, too. I've been military 16 years ... college education ... married 23 years now ... active with church and community ... blah blah blah ... see what I mean?

You're just full of tests, who's judging who? It was to impress upon those who care that I've lived a bit of life-which in all fairness I have. You sound very bitter and disillusioned to be so personally hostile and divergent from the topic of the thread. If you want to keep flaming me go ahead. edit...

It means nothing until the day you're struck with MS/cancer/etc and it cripples you or disables you to the point of struggling to put just the basic of needs on your table for your family. Or if your financial security is lost and you struggle to maintain a job due to no vehicle. Or if you lose a child to death, a cherished family member to sensless murder. Those are humbling experiences desi ... not what you mentioned. That's the difference.

So you want a sob story, my parents divorced when I was young... but you're just about to use that to coin me as a...

You are a combative and angry man.

Reread your thread, you may be confused.

You need to look inward. I think this all stems from your childhood and I'll nail it with your parent's divorce.

The only thing my parent's divorce taught me is divorce is hard on children. After reading the Bible I see God doesn't like divorce either, yet Christians seem to like divorce more than their nonChristian peers despite God's word consistently against it. Answer that riddle and this thread will finally die the death I pray for it.

And with that, now that I see what I'm dealing with here, I'm done here. \

God sincerely bless you and your family desi.

Thanks, I think.

 

[Jenna]

I think it is interesting that so much arguing is going on over something so simple. God hates divorce. God hates divorce. Oh, and God hates divorce. He didn't give anyone a free ticket by making concessions because of the hardness of ANYONE's heart, whether male or female. Divorce is always a sin, no matter who is initiating, and it doesn't make it any worse whether it is a woman or a man who is walking out the door. Sin is sin is sin, and it is all harmful and leads to death.

If a man divorces his wife, it is a sin. If a woman divorces her husband, it is a sin. Just because God said that it is possible to divorce doesn't mean that it is what He wants, obviously. That said, maybe the only thing that we do need to agree on is that if a person is going to commit the sin of divorce willingly, then they are going to be judged by God for their actions. Since we are all judged by what we do on this earth, it's pretty much a moot point to all of us mere mortals who don't have the authority to judge whether a person deserves heaven or hell. Each person decides what they are going to do, and what concequences they are willing to pay for every choice in their life. It isn't any different here. Now, can we all get back to being sweet to each other??

 

[desi]

Its only failed when both sides give up, if one holds on that marriage hasn't failed, what does that mean anyway failed marriage.... a marriage cant fail the people in the marriage can though.

I may be worn down from answering the last post but what is your point here?

LOL@third person convo.
Ummmm... no.
God doesn't send people to hell they choose their path and the outcome. People who sit around telling others there sin and never mentioning the fact that there can and will be forgiveness are the ones the send people, or at least condemn them, to hell. Yes desi you are saying defing this is hell worthy, thats you, God will forgive anyway, he might not hug and kiss you all the time but he doesnt sit and scold all the time either.

Sinning while counting on forgiveness for it when you know it is wrong is no different than what Satan does or the Pharisees did. It is directly defying God. Do you honestly think God will not recognize it as what it is.

And Jesus didnt die on the cross to condemn the divorced either. So whats your point? HE CAME TO SAVE PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS..... and fathom this desi, even divorce.

To save them from sin yes, to provide a convenient excuse for sinning no. Sin is the original sin which Adam commited by biting the forbidden fruit. Everyone from the Old Testament was stained by this sin regardless of how good they were. When Jesus died the 'original sin' was removed and the Holy Spirit came down to help us lead Godly lives. Are you honestly suggesting the Holy Spirit is leading Christians to divorce in historical numbers? :o

Dont be foolosh enough to think that you can talk the talk and not walk the walk, and think Gods grace is some cheap gift that the Bible overrides.

You, and many others here, are making light of Jesus's sacrifice by suggesting people use it as a get out of jail free card.

Thats hypocritcal and you are right Jesus didnt like them all to well.

Warrior Poet

To say one is a Christian and defy what Jesus said we should do is hypocritical. How can one have faith in Jesus's sacrifice and not in his word? To have such a desparity lacks faith and diminishes the example Jesus set for us.

 

[desi]

Thanks for the prayers. I pray one of you finds scripture to end this thread, it eludes me. If I visited a battered women's shelter I would be sad. Sad for the women there and the future women their abusers would go on to harm. Better to deal with such men in their first relationship than to leave them to harm other women and children.

 

[Jenna]

Thanks for the prayers. I pray one of you finds scripture to end this thread, it eludes me. If I visited a battered women's shelter I would be sad. Sad for the women there and the future women their abusers would go on to harm. Better to deal with such men in their first relationship than to leave them to harm other women and children.

I agree with you, desi. I think it would be ideal to take care of these kinds of situations from the beginning. The only problem is that we have no support base to work with. As a society, we are crippling our ability to care, nurture, and protect those dear to us because we have allowed the institution of marriage and family to completely crumble. Who knew that disobeying God in one area could leak deadly poison into every relationship and undermine our strength on a whole? Oh......yeah.....God......

 

[mlukas]

I was attempting to be subtle. If my son inlaw mistreated my daughter or grand children he would learn to treat them right or die trying. If my daughter's marriage fails it will be because she is an adulteress and I disown her or she becomes a widow.

So what would you do? Put a gun to his head and force him to change? I think you have a very naive view on life. Are you proposing that if he didn't change you would kill him? What about "thou shall not murder"? Or does it "not apply" here? And what happens if one of his "slip ups" on his road to recovery results in the death or permanent injury of your kid or grandkids?
Read Exodus 21:26-27. If God felt this way about SLAVES how much more do you think he would feel about a wife or children?
And I find it sad you would disown her for that, would Jesus "disown" you for any reason? Is there anything you could do to cause Him to walk away from you? If your answer is yes, then you contradict scripture (See Romans 8:37-39).

I hear you but I don't agree. You may be looking at this myopically. Kicking the fellow out just allows him to hurt other people, why would you be party to that? What if your daughter hooked up with the guy who I kicked out of my daughter's house? Abuse has to be dealt with, not left to propagate in places other than your 'backyard'.

No, I'm looking at it REALISTICALLY! It isn't my job to change people, nor yours. God is really the only person that can do that. And even He is subject to His own law of free will. I'm not going to try and change someone who is beating my daughter just because he may go out and do it to someone else in the future. My concern would be for the present, and at present, He's an evil man that needs to be kept away from my daughter, etc, so she doesn't get killed.
Sadly, it just seems that you overall have a very unrealistic view of the world. The world doesn't fall into neat, compact little situations and categories. Life is messy, ever changing. And although Gods word is always true, I'm starting to agree with the other people on this thread. You have a very narrow interpretation of things without considering the OVERALL spirit and message of God's word.

 

[Warrior Poet]

I may be worn down from answering the last post but what is your point here?

That you didn't have one.

Sinning while counting on forgiveness for it when you know it is wrong is no different than what Satan does or the Pharisees did. It is directly defying God. Do you honestly think God will not recognize it as what it is.

Satan and the Pharisees manipulated the Law to there advantage, not one person her has advocated that simply that if divorce occurs, there is always Gods grace. It only takes one to leave and walk out, ask my ex-wife she will tell you.
Are you telling me that no once in your life you have sinned knowing full well what you were doing/saying wasn't in accordance with Christ's words. What did you rely on after that desi? Forgiveness. I think he will recognize it for what it is... but thats just it, you aren't God. If he cares enough to know how many hairs are on my head I would venture the guess that in the case of divorce's he treats them as unique as the people involved. That doesn't mean He likes divorce but it does mean he can forgive you for it. Why is divorce the unforgivable sin to you desi?

To save them from sin yes, to provide a convenient excuse for sinning no. Sin is the original sin which Adam commited by biting the forbidden fruit. Everyone from the Old Testament was stained by this sin regardless of how good they were. When Jesus died the 'original sin' was removed and the Holy Spirit came down to help us lead Godly lives. Are you honestly suggesting the Holy Spirit is leading Christians to divorce in historical numbers? :o

Sin is the original sin???? What are you talking about?
EVERYONE is staind with sin. No sin was removed when Christ died, if it was then no one would sin anymore, which isn't the case. He was the ultimate price to PAY for our sins, that sacrifices and Law were no longer required for salvation, Christ didn't do away with sin, he did away with the price that came with the sin. Are you Honestly telling me that God wont allow a person to leave a marriage and be forgiven?
I am seeing now if your logic is flawed at the bottom of the pyramid then so is the rest, its the trickle down system.

You, and many others here, are making light of Jesus's sacrifice by suggesting people use it as a get out of jail free card.

Shut your trap desi... you show me where I said that. I have been in threads about divorce before, I have never once told a person its time to walk and its ok to do so, you on the other hand encourage men to start dating other women, act young and she'll want you back, so zip it desi, that statement is utter BS. The only thing here everyone but you is advocating is forgiveness.

To say one is a Christian and defy what Jesus said we should do is hypocritical. How can one have faith in Jesus's sacrifice and not in his word? To have such a desparity lacks faith and diminishes the example Jesus set for us.

desi have you ever lusted in your heart or mind?..... then you have cheated on your wife. If you say no then not only are you an adultress but a liar as well. You have committed adultry in the eyes of the Lord. You are wicked and defiling Christs words by doing this. There is no hope for you.

An absured statement and I hope you get the point.


Warrior Poet

 

[mlukas]

Desi, I sadly agree with everyone. You do seem very arrogant. Part of it, and I agree with Rainyday, seems to be that no real tragedy has really invaded your life.
You were on the edge of divorce, and, according to your answers on the thread, your brilliant and insightful action saved your marriage.
Truthfully, you got lucky.
And where would you be had your wife decieded to walk away from you? I think your tone and overall outlook on life would be radically different.
My divorce humbled me, prior to that I thought all divorcee's were lepers. Somehow unclean and damaged. Again, the truth is bad things happen that you or God (free will) can't control. Your world seems very ordered and neat. Your seperation did nothing to shatter that. And your thoughts and view originate from that. Ordered and neat and always in control. I feel, as rainy day does, that you will never truly understand life until part of it spins out of your control. I pray that God grants you the strength to deal with it when it happnens.
None of us on the thread are for "wanton" divorce as you are proposing. Divorce shouldn't, in an ideal world, be an option. I think, from the general feeling of the thread, we are saying that if someones life or general well being (in the case of sexual abuse) is in jeapordy, then, YES, get away and divorce Him/Her before anyone else gets hurt. I wouldn't define that as "wanton" divorce, just something that in this sin riddled world, happens.
Again, life will at some point will be totally out of your control. That is where you will learn much. Not from the Marines, not from being a Dad/Husband, and certainly not from just sitting in a room, in an ivory tower, reading your Bible.
M

 

[joshua_cheung]

Life is never easy. We all have a lot of suffering in our living.

If your wife has a lot of suffering (physically or mentally) because of you and you cannot change yourself and you really love her, let her go.

Ask yourself can you change yourself for her so that she feels being loved and respected. If no, let her go.

I love mercy and love. I hate to follow any rule or laws without love even the laws came from God. Why do I follow God without love and mercy?

 

[desi]

So what would you do? Put a gun to his head and force him to change? I think you have a very naive view on life. Are you proposing that if he didn't change you would kill him? What about "thou shall not murder"? Or does it "not apply" here? And what happens if one of his "slip ups" on his road to recovery results in the death or permanent injury of your kid or grandkids?
Read Exodus 21:26-27. If God felt this way about SLAVES how much more do you think he would feel about a wife or children?
And I find it sad you would disown her for that, would Jesus "disown" you for any reason? Is there anything you could do to cause Him to walk away from you? If your answer is yes, then you contradict scripture (See Romans 8:37-39).

I would use whatever leverage I had, leverage for everyone is different, while praying just like I did to save my marriage. Again mlukas, its not an a or b choice. It is more of a three dimensional situation where the possibilities and choices are infinite. To choose to send the man away none the wiser so he can mistreat others is a poor option indeed. It also damages the fellow's children and wife, YOUR daughter and YOUR grandchildren. No, men who fail must learn from their mistakes or pay the price. Whether that price is a long stint in the pen, a shallow grave in the desert etc.. matters not, hopefully they learn. So long as effort has been made to fix the problem instead of sending to unsuspecting others we have behaved as Godly men.

No, I'm looking at it REALISTICALLY! It isn't my job to change people, nor yours. God is really the only person that can do that. And even He is subject to His own law of free will. I'm not going to try and change someone who is beating my daughter just because he may go out and do it to someone else in the future. My concern would be for the present, and at present, He's an evil man that needs to be kept away from my daughter, etc, so she doesn't get killed.
Sadly, it just seems that you overall have a very unrealistic view of the world. The world doesn't fall into neat, compact little situations and categories. Life is messy, ever changing. And although Gods word is always true, I'm starting to agree with the other people on this thread. You have a very narrow interpretation of things without considering the OVERALL spirit and message of God's word.

Realistically I was screwed when my wife initiated a separation. The point is when we behave according to scripture 'realistically' is no longer pertinent as the divine takes over. If you as a Christian are looking realistically you will always fail from lack of faith, and lack of action in faith. When we act in scripture contrary to what seems right realistically we seldom if ever fail! To save your child at the expense of countless other women you don't know is cowardice!

 

[desi]

The consensus seems to be suffering would lead me to understand we can ignore what the Bible says. If that's true how come Jesus never faltered?

 

[mlukas]

Desi, you are truly a sick individual. Anyone willing to sacrifice their child for a molester or wife beater truly has some sort of warping in their mind. The fact that you even mentioned the option of "a shallow grave in the desert" just shows how truly warped you are my friend. Murder vs the woman leaving to a safe place. Don't you see the sickness in your statement?
I don't know about the rest of you on this thread, but I give up.
I pity you desi, I truly do.

M

 

[Warrior Poet]

I would use whatever leverage I had, leverage for everyone is different, while praying just like I did to save my marriage. Again mlukas, its not an a or b choice. It is more of a three dimensional situation where the possibilities and choices are infinite. To choose to send the man away none the wiser so he can mistreat others is a poor option indeed. It also damages the fellow's children and wife, YOUR daughter and YOUR grandchildren. No, men who fail must learn from their mistakes or pay the price. Whether that price is a long stint in the pen, a shallow grave in the desert etc.. matters not, hopefully they learn. So long as effort has been made to fix the problem instead of sending to unsuspecting others we have behaved as Godly men.

Perfect. This is perfect everyone but you thinks "A" and "B" desi, at least you think like that. Wait that would make you an "A and B" thinker then huh.....LOL Your assumption is based on the notion people will not excercise every option and opportunity to save their marriage. Today one person can get a divorce completely one sided. You are knocking the people that tried to make it work after the separation. You keep talking about all these options but when someone brings up an option other then yours they are wrong. How is it that you can be so open yet so closed minded? If you would have started this thread on the opposite assumption and let people prove you otherwise then I would be on your side desi, thats just not the case here.

The consensus seems to be suffering would lead me to understand we can ignore what the Bible says. If that's true how come Jesus never faltered?

Define falter. If I recall Jesus, before his torture and death, asked God if there was another way. He knew what he had to do from day 1, but still questioned God, this could be viewed as faltering, questioning authority especially one such as God. It wasn't like that though, that just proves He was 100% man and 100% God.

Warrior Poet

 

[desi]

The divorced people around here are quick to pounce. You seem to hold to forgiveness like a drowning man hugging a piece of debris from a ship doomed to the deep, despite what Jesus said on the matter. Forgiveness is there if it is merely what you seek. Restoration is also there if you dare pursue it. Put away your assumptions mlukas, your feeble attempts to convict me of my methods are wanting in light of what directs me-what should direct you. I can assure you my children are better off and safer than at least the majority of their peers. I still await an end to this constant irritation of a thread. 'Jesus forgives despite us defying his word.' doesn't cut it. You can't rationally believe Jesus saves and knowingly defy his word concerning divorce-or anything else, or can you? Can you take grace, damn all else?

 

[Warrior Poet]

Same grace that saves your sinning butt to desi, dont downplay that.

Warrior Poet

 

[desi]

Same grace that saves your sinning butt to desi, dont downplay that.

Warrior Poet

I respect grace and the price paid for it. I also defer to Jesus's word. That seems to be where our difference lies. Following Biblical teachings with grace versus doing what you feel is right with grace whether or not the Bible concurs. I just don't trust my feelings enough to act on them when they are at odds with God's word. Back when I did trust my feelings they told me my wife was not Godly so I didn't have to be either, they told me it felt better to be with people who weren't always nagging me so why go home early, feelings told me all sorts of things which earned me a bit of fun and lots of heartache.

 

[Warrior Poet]

No our differences are simply you look at people taking a free ride, which isnt whats being advocated or taught anywhere here, and if you really mean what you said above then grace and forgiveness should be part of your teachings. Why? It was a huge part of Christs teaching if you hold Him in such high regard compared to others, then for you to leave this aspect of his teachings out, is a very big insult to who/what Christ is/was.
Thats the difference.

Warrior Poet

 

[jeepgirl1]

Desi,
I get the feeling that you really want everyone to just go "Oh my! What was I thinking?!? Desi is right, he's been right all along. Thank you Desi, for showing me the proper way to the Lord."

The thing is, I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind, just as all these people aren't going to change your mind. So why don't you just agree to disagree and close the thread down?

Its b/come a pointless rambling wreck where people are trying to hit each other over the head with Bible verses and their "proper" interpretations. Nothing is being learned, love isn't being cultivated. If anything, the seeds of hate and anger are sprouting very quickly. There's already enough bitterness and hate in the Christian vs non-Christian way of thinking and living, why add to it with infighting amongst ourselves ...

If you want people to turn away from what can be seen as sinful behavior, pray for them so that God may enter their hearts and change them. Don't sit and antagonize, just makes everything worse.

 

[desi]

No our differences are simply you look at people taking a free ride, which isnt whats being advocated or taught anywhere here, and if you really mean what you said above then grace and forgiveness should be part of your teachings. Why? It was a huge part of Christs teaching if you hold Him in such high regard compared to others, then for you to leave this aspect of his teachings out, is a very big insult to who/what Christ is/was.
Thats the difference.

Warrior Poet

The insult is when Christians divorce for errant reasons and inevitably involve themselves in future relationships where they systematically commit adultery day after day after day while claiming all is well in the name of Jesus.