Women initiating separation or divorce...

[cazza]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MEN!!!!!! I SAY NO MORE!!!!

 

[rainyday]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MEN!!!!!! I SAY NO MORE!!!!

Oh NO ... do NOT go there, please! I have one sister who LOVES to say that the Bible was written by a bunch of old Jewish men scared and hiding out in caves. If that were the case, what about the old testament, or the letters written when the apostles were traveling?

Was it written by men? Yes, but divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit who acted through them, yes, too.

[is this really ME talking here? ]

Okay, I used to have the same stand point as you just stated above ... boy did I ever ... but over time and much of life's trials and tribulations, things I've seen and the Holy Spirit's constant guidance, sometimes with a punch in the head , I lowered the defense shields and allowed Him to work within me.

When I used to say that "written by men..." line, one day I realized I was spouting off without ever having really read the Bible. I never had a leg to solidly stand on in my complaints and scoffing of the bible. So for a birthday present one year I bought myself a bible and began reading. Now, I don't know about you cazza and if you've read and studied, I'm only speaking from my own POV here so please don't take offense. I just realized I was a hypocrite by standing there criticizing a book I had never bothered to open up and read. As I read it I was able to discern more.

First off, you have to remember this was over 2000 years ago and times were EXTREMELY different then. Women were property. Of course the bible wasn't written by women, it wasn't going to be, it couldn't have been. Jewish women weren't allowed an education much less permitted to write religious teachings. But when reading the new testament, you see there was much written in the old testament that Jesus tossed out when He arrived, not only because much had already changed, but because He wanted much to change. He kept women close to Him throughout His travels and used them in many ways to get His Word to others through their testimonies. That in itself was not customary in the least.

Take for instance in John 4 with the Samaritan woman at the well. Not only did Jews not associate with Samaritans (the hated mixed race), but it was never customary to speak to a woman in a public place, espeically a woman known to be living in sin as she was. But Jesus did, and he spoke to her of the living water and through her testimony many of the Samaritans believed in Jesus

Then you have to take into account what it is you're reading as well cazza ... like the letters to the Corinthians for example. Paul was writing to a people who were leading a certain way of life at that time, as well as directly responding to issues that were taking place there at that time. He had been visited by a delegation of the Corinthian church who asked his advice about their conflicts, so much of what's written there is in response to those issues. Not that there isn't much we can't take from it and learn from, but you have to discern. I am specifically mentioning Corinthians because this is one source where some people love to toss out and slam down on the table one liners as 'proof positive' without considering the complete chapter and again the reason the letter was written.

Take for instance Corinthians 11:3

3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Paul explains God's plan for lines of authority for the world to function smoothly. Note even Christ had to submit to God. This also notes God's established roles within family. In much of life we all must submit. We submit to a police officer's authority over us as citizens. We submit to our employers delagations of tasks and work load. Each town's Mayor submits to the state's Governor, as each state's Governor submits to the President and Federal Government's authority over it, and our country to the world's nations (to an extent). The word submission in the bible isn't used to indicate control or supremacy, it's used to delinate 'the source of' and is the key to a smooth functioning of family to prevent chaos. Nor is submission surrender and it certainly doesn't mean inferiority, because we all have equal value in God's eye. Rather submission is MUTUAL commitment and cooperation. If a woman doesn't want to submit to the structure of a marriage ... then she shouldn't marry and thus live alone.

I just explained this a couple of days ago to a friend, and being the Steelers nut I am, I used football as my analogy.

It's like having two quarterbacks out on the field of play at the same time ... chaos. Who will the team members follow? Who's snap will be permitted? Other team players must submit (i.e., commit to the team to cooperate) and take other positions of lesser control and noterity yet still vital to the overall team's ability to progress down field in order to win a game. The quarterback can't do it alone. He depends on his running back's endurance and his wide receiver's abilities, both which are still popular positions to hold on the team's offense. Still though, even they can't do much without the offensive line holding back the opposing team's defense so the QB can work through them and their abilities. The offensive line isn't as glamorous a position as running back or wide receiver, and certainly not the quarterback ... but it's essential to the team as a whole. If team members don't submit to the lesser roles on the team and everyone wanted to be the quarterback ... there's no game.

That's what I believe submission is all about ... consenting to commit to follow the lead. In this line of thinking, man doesn't come off easy cazza. Man has a hard job leading a family since God designated him head of the family. It's NOT a role he can delegate away to the wife. There are times within a marriage a wife may be more suited to lead certain events, more talented for certain tasks, or healthier during a period of time to take the lead, but again, it's mutual consent and circumstancial. This is how I've discerned it anyway.

I'm rambling early in the morning again, aren't I? It's just that it took me a long time to grasp much of this. I also realize that God chose each of our genders upon our births for a reason. Then He sits back to see if we can accept His decision to challenge us in that role here on earth and submit to it. Men must submit to theirs of having to be the responsible lead. God never said making it to heaven would be easy for any of us, at least I didn't find that in the bible yet. In fact, when you turn more to God, Satan turns right around and eyeballs you harder. He doesn't want you getting anywhere near where he can't go, right?

Anyway, I'm digressing again... it still all comes back to discerning with the Holy Spirit's guidance and reading scripture so you can understand more.

 

[cazza]

You are right Rainyday, I have barely scratched the surface regarding reading/Studying the bible. I think I am a little bitter at the moment.

 

[rainyday]

You are right Rainyday, I have barely scratched the surface regarding reading/Studying the bible. I think I am a little bitter at the moment.

I know cazza, I realized that. Keep hanging in there (moving over to your other thread now as I want to address something).

 

[Bartimaeus]

You're arguing with me when I've only echoed Jesus's written words which do not appear to permit a woman to leave her husband. If you do not agree with what Jesus says I don't know what to say. You could add another book to the Bible if you feel so inspired or you could look at what happens in an abusive relationship when it continues, when the abuser is prosecuted or dealt with by inlaws, and when the relationship is terminated and the people move on. God's wisdom is not always secular common sense as many people seem to believe, this is evidenced by many of you questioning God's word. Instead of looking deeper you condemn me, a nobody spouting scripture on the internet.



It is as the Bible says, not as I say. Again look beyond what you feel and what appears obvious but in conflict with the Bible. The earth is not flat and much of life is invisible and if a woman leaves an abusive man, what happens next for both of them and any children involved?

Ah, but you misunderstand. I wasn't questioning the bible, but what *YOU* say it says. I'm trying to get you to look at what you perceive the bible says, and perhaps question it yourself, you know? I mean, come on, would a loving God really say "Sorry, abusive spouse? Stay with them. I command it."?

 

[Bartimaeus]

Desi, I don't quite understand what you mean by "where you are coming from" in regards to women leaving their husbands.
My wife left me, and admittantly, we had problems. But, they were problems that, at the time COULD BE FIXED!! And I was more than willing to work on them.
Now, it's all under the bridge really BUT...
I believe as you believe, but with some variations.
I think adultery is a more than legitimate reason for one to divorce, however, looking at the NATURE of God and his CHARACTER as revealed through the Bible, I find it impossible to believe that he would want anyone to stay in a situation where they are being abused, beaten, and otherwise denigrated on a consistant basis. If a man or woman leaves for those reasons, I really don't see any problem. Pragmatically or biblically.
I am glad you have been married for so long, I was married for 11 years before my ex decieded to have an affair and leave me. I pray with every fiber in my being it doesn't happen to you. As the old cliche goes, "No one ever thinks it will happen to them"
But I digress...
I felt for years with my Ex that she could care less if I lived or died, truly. We went to counseling for a while, and it helped, for a time. She decieded somwhere down the line that she no longer wanted to work on things, I, however did. But again, there's that problem of free will I could not force her to stay.
I appreciated your advice on one of my posts (Divorce, dating, and finances..) but you seem a bit judgemental of the situations people encounter.
Bad things happen in life. People leave, others do evil things to others, and I don't think that God would want people staying in a situation where they are constantly made to feel worthless, like I was.
The sick and twisted part of this is that my life is actually much better, and if I had to choose between living the way I was with my ex until the day I die or the situation I am in now, I choose the situation I am in now. Fact is, I am glad she divorced me. At the time it sucked, but looking back and given the choice I just layed out, I am the better Christian, Man, and Father for all of it.
Desi, it's hard for you to understand because, thankfully, it hasn't happened to you. And, the only way to truly relate to it is if, God forbid, it happens to you. It's like closing your eyes for 10 minutes then saying you know what it's like to be blind.
It sounds like you have a wonderful marraige, I truly hope so. I hope you will never know the pain of feeling worthless, unwanted, a ghost, an afterthought. I can see why ANYONE if they had made EVERY concevialbe effort to save their marriage, would leave given those curcumstances. I lived it.

Actually, and I know this is slightly off-topic, and should be addressed somewhere else, but I can say that's a common mistake people make is closing their eyes for a short period of time and saying that they, indeed, know what it's like to be blind. My point in mentioning this this is that you're right, you don't know what it's like unless you've been there.

 

[Warrior Poet]

The sad part here is that the presumtion of the question is set not knowing the circumstances of the divorce(s), they are all unique just like those involved, its only fair to treat them as such.
Agreed divorce shouldn't ever be an option, but it is. I have spent time on this forum long enough to know the the initiation is 50/50. Christian women are equal in life and in marriage (you can spout the different roles to me all day, they are still equal) In that instance rules apply to both parties. I believe the Commandment is "Love thy neighbor" Thats God, reiterated by Christ many times, he never says "Men love thy neighbor" So why is it assumed that this applies to women as well, there where no specifics given, right?. This, in the case of the argument presented, means this commandment doesnt apply to either gender, if you want to be literal about it.The Bible isnt sexist, the people reading it and not understanding there is no bias meant, wont get that. If Jesus is telling me that I can be put on a level playing field with a murderer who repeants and means it, same guy who walks with the unclean and with me viewing us with the same eyes and loving us with the same heart and commands me to do the same, but sit here and say, these certain rules only apply to men, seems to be a personal opinion more then anything else.Differnt roles yes, different rules no. If we start picking and choosing what can apply to one and not the other Christianity as a whole becomes another "religion" where equality is something that doesn't even exist.Thats not Christianity, equality is a large part of seperates "the men from the boys" in the religious arena. Woman dont forefit there biblical laws/rules and duties once married. Jesus never said anything of the sort.
There is nothing wrong with the the translation people are using, the problem is where that persons heart is while they read it.

Warrior Poet

 

[rainyday]

Okay, I understand the lousy leader thing...I was one of them. However, Desi is right. 1 Cor. 7 tells us that if the wife separates, not divorce, is to not marry again, but the only option is reconciliation. I believe this to be true for the husband as well. God is very clear on this. We, as Christian's today, try to make the Bible fit the way we want to live, not us live the way the Bible wants us too.

jaspen, it's 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 and in it's entirety it reads:

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Now, that just means that if she does, she must remain unmarried. She has no other options other than to be reconciled to her husband in this verse.

 

[desi]

Ah don't give her that BS ... there's no bad translation! How about YOU pull ME the quote, verse and chapter, where it states that a woman MUST stay put. Come on ... MUST STAY IN A MARRIAGE! It's not there desi. Nope, no translation bub.

There is no direct quote. Only that 'IF' a woman divorces her husband and marries another ... implying adultery in such incidents. Actually, it's giving guidance to those who DO divorce about what they can and cannot do following the divorce. So, if the wife DOES divorce her husband and remains celibate ... she has NOT gone against the bible.

Each of the above quotes implies God's hate for divorce, but also incorporates the word 'IF' ... then gives instructions what can and cannot be done following a divorce. If you need me to pull it out of whatever other translation you're reading ... let me know, I WILL DO IT!

1 Corinthians 7:10 is the command from the Lord for wives not to leave their husbands. The 'if' you quoted which follows was for people who defied the command in their ignorance. Remember Corinthians was letters to these people on how to behave, they were new in the word. Some of them were already separated, it was too late for them not to leave their husbands.

Also, to use one of your favorite words, 'DEFY' ... show me in the bible where its stated that a wife must never 'DEFY' her husband.

Peter 3:1 tells wives to fit in with their husband's plans and be respectful so they will be won over by your respectful treatment of them. A woman initiating separation would seem at odds to Peter 3:1. Genesis 3:16 is where God is damning the snake and reaming man and woman. In doing this he tells woman she is to experience painful child birth and shall welcome her husbands affections and he shall be her master. Does one defy their master; should we defy our master?

Oh, and I wasn't referring to Jesus desi as you well know ... just you. You can play with words, it doesn't bother me nor does it obstruct those reading these threads from the fact that you're not solidly defending your stand, simply responding in a childish mocking manner. If the shoe fits, AND IT DOES, wear it!

You seem comfortable in condemning me which I'll accept as it may have been foolish of me to start this topic. I'm an easy target for criticism. Since you wanted scripture, you have it.

 

[rainyday]

LOL @ desi ... really lol!

 

[desi]

Desi,
fortunatly for you, that strategy worked. I can't really see the sense in you not seeing your kids, though. They had nothing to do with the poor decisions of your wife, as mine did not. But, as I've said, water under the bridge.

The kids acted up when I was away, not so much when I spent time with them. The harder separation was on her the better marriage looked to her. My kids are better off now for me having done what I did. It could have failed, granted, but it didn't.

Just for the record, I never groveled. I'm not stupid, groveling and begging in any human relationship leads to annoyance and disdain quicker than guilting someone into something. I knew she would have to come to the conclusion on her own, and I moved out and gave her that space. Again, free will, she decieded to leave. What am I going to do, put a gun to her head and force her to be married to me?
I did everything in my power to keep it together but, again, bad things happen, people have free will and (YES!) there ARE actually people out there that really don't care about consequences, the Bible, God, etc.
And counseling, if it's done right, I don't think emasculates men. Bad counseling with some femi-nazi counselor, YES, definatly, it happens all the time. But to get someone to mediate when you can't see the forest through the trees, I can't see how you would consider that bad.

You're right. Counseling can be beneficial, but not how it is usually done. For counseling to work it must be done by people qualified to do it, people who have been married a long time and are familiar with the couple in trouble. In my case a couple from church took an interest in us and helped a bit to work things out. The counselor I gave up on was on her second marriage suggesting we use "I feel..." statements. So... I fired her!

Also, are you proposing that EVERYTHING you did in your marriage up to when your wife wanted a divorce was PERFECT? We all have flaws, and if your wife left you for a time I find it hard to believe that you didn't have something to do with it. I'd be a liar if I said (as I stated in my last post) I was TOTALLY in the right, the perfect husband, etc.
Are you saying that you didn't have to change ANYTHING about the way you acted in the marriage and it was all just the wayward, blind wifes problem? If that is so, I think that line of thought is extremally naive and self decieving. "If we say that we have no sin, we have made Him a liar..." as the Bible says.
I'm not trying to provoke you, but just asking some legitimate questions.
M

You made lots of assumptions. This is part of the crux of the issue around here, near as I can tell. I was a horrible husband in many ways, now I'm a hair above average. When I looked up what God says husbands and wives are to do in the Bible, on the long lonely nights, I was convicted and changed many of my ways. However, I did NOT change based on what my wife said. No matter how bad a husband or wife is the other spouse is in no position to initiate a separation or divorce, except where Jesus says a fellow can divorce his wife for fornication if he wants. If a husband starts trying to save his marriage by doing what his wife tells him he goes from a fellow who's marriage is in trouble by a wayward wife to an utter fool, a man following the instruction of a wayward wife. During my separation I saw many of my fauls as well as hers. God fixed my marriage because, who knows. I will say I have no doubt if I had followed my wife's lead things would have turned out much worse.

 

[desi]

Ah, but you misunderstand. I wasn't questioning the bible, but what *YOU* say it says. I'm trying to get you to look at what you perceive the bible says, and perhaps question it yourself, you know?

You can read my reply to Rainyday and see what I say my Bible says; compare it to yours, and question the source if you care to.

I mean, come on, would a loving God really say "Sorry, abusive spouse? Stay with them. I command it."?

I never said he did.

 

[desi]

LOL @ desi ... really lol!

I see it, you don't. Pardon me.

 

[desi]

The sad part here is that the presumtion of the question is set not knowing the circumstances of the divorce(s), they are all unique just like those involved, its only fair to treat them as such.

Wonder why the Bible condemns divorce almost without exception. Could it be God is not interested in circumstances or excuses?

Agreed divorce shouldn't ever be an option, but it is.

Rape, murder, and you name it else should not be an option, but it is. For us to look the other way when people defy God's word amounts to winking at sin which is condemned in Proverbs. Its not a popular line to hold. It will not get you lots of blessings or reputation here, but it is God's word.

I have spent time on this forum long enough to know the the initiation is 50/50.

By my count Christian women by a large margin initiate separation in my personal experience and around here.

Christian women are equal in life and in marriage (you can spout the different roles to me all day, they are still equal) In that instance rules apply to both parties. I believe the Commandment is "Love thy neighbor" Thats God, reiterated by Christ many times, he never says "Men love thy neighbor" So why is it assumed that this applies to women as well, there where no specifics given, right?. This, in the case of the argument presented, means this commandment doesnt apply to either gender, if you want to be literal about it.

That's it. Misapply a general rule to a specific situation. Separation and or divorce is not a Biblical act of love in any case. I challenge you to name one exception. Or better yet, quote a verse of scripture where a woman is granted permission by God to leave her husband- I've offered several to the contrary only to be ridiculed.

The Bible isnt sexist, the people reading it and not understanding there is no bias meant, wont get that.

The Bible does assign men and women different roles in marriage. I don't know why women think such things are sexist?

If Jesus is telling me that I can be put on a level playing field with a murderer who repeants and means it, same guy who walks with the unclean and with me viewing us with the same eyes and loving us with the same heart and commands me to do the same, but sit here and say, these certain rules only apply to men, seems to be a personal opinion more then anything else.

Are you suggesting the Bible cannot be gender specific?

Differnt roles yes, different rules no.

When a role is assigned by God it becomes a rule by default.

If we start picking and choosing what can apply to one and not the other Christianity as a whole becomes another "religion" where equality is something that doesn't even exist.Thats not Christianity, equality is a large part of seperates "the men from the boys" in the religious arena. Woman dont forefit there biblical laws/rules and duties once married. Jesus never said anything of the sort.
There is nothing wrong with the the translation people are using, the problem is where that persons heart is while they read it.

Warrior Poet

Where is equality among the sexes mentioned in the Bible? You've managed to make a long post spouting politically correct nonsense without mentioning one Biblical principle, actually you've ignored a few . Answering this post makes me feel like I'm at General Apologetics arguing against an Atheist about Rational Humanitarianism.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Desi,
You just don't get it, do you? You have not been ridiculed, merely questioned. The bible hasn't been criticized, merely your view of it. Yet, all you can do is say "the bible says...therefore..." and that's it. I half expect that phrase to come out of you in either a robotic voice, or that of a parrot...you've repeated it so much with no new substance to your argument. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I get tired of your tired old arguments that don't hold water.

 

[Bartimaeus]

You can read my reply to Rainyday and see what I say my Bible says; compare it to yours, and question the source if you care to.

I never said he did.

You may as well have said he did, though. You keep saying there are no exceptions. Yet, when asked about abuse, you keep going back to "Only in cases of adultery", and wondering why we would question. Hmmm, could it be because you haven't answered?

 

[Bartimaeus]

Wonder why the Bible condemns divorce almost without exception. Could it be God is not interested in circumstances or excuses?


Rape, murder, and you name it else should not be an option, but it is. For us to look the other way when people defy God's word amounts to winking at sin which is condemned in Proverbs. Its not a popular line to hold. It will not get you lots of blessings or reputation here, but it is God's word.


By my count Christian women by a large margin initiate separation in my personal experience and around here.


That's it. Misapply a general rule to a specific situation. Separation and or divorce is not a Biblical act of love in any case. I challenge you to name one exception. Or better yet, quote a verse of scripture where a woman is granted permission by God to leave her husband- I've offered several to the contrary only to be ridiculed.


The Bible does assign men and women different roles in marriage. I don't know why women think such things are sexist?


Are you suggesting the Bible cannot be gender specific?


When a role is assigned by God it becomes a rule by default.


Where is equality among the sexes mentioned in the Bible? You've managed to make a long post spouting politically correct nonsense without mentioning one Biblical principle, actually you've ignored a few . Answering this post makes me feel like I'm at General Apologetics arguing against an Atheist about Rational Humanitarianism.

Desi, you said:

Wonder why the Bible condemns divorce almost without exception. Could it be God is not interested in circumstances or excuses?

See? You just proved my point. Abuse doesn't matter, in your view. Well, in all honesty, I think it is Desi, not God who isn't interested in circumstances...why? Because it doesn't gel with your view of the bible.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Okay, I have some general comments to make here, Desi, about your posts, and the problems I have. While I am not as liberal as some Christians I know, one of the things I tend to agree with the more liberal ones on is people who, like you, are literalists when it comes to scripture. There's no room for flexibility of understanding what scripture means. Grated, I don't want their to be too much flexibility, but on the other hand, I don't want to put God in as rigid, narrow-minded, and yes (with apologies) even bigoted a box as you. B bigoted, though, I mean sexist. Men have more rights than women do, according to your view of scripture. Hmmm, should they have their hair cut a certain way? I guess my point is this: much like the pharisees, you're too hung up, or so it appears, on the legalistic aspects of scripture, and forgetting God's grace. I know, I know, I've mentioned the grace thing before, but it is so important to me, my faith, and my view of God. If you're to be believed, God rules with an iron fist. Not my God...he's much gentler than that. *SIGH*

 

[Warrior Poet]

Wonder why the Bible condemns divorce almost without exception.

Almost being the Key word here Jesus made an exception.... I can give you a verse where there is an exception. You know where to find it and if you don't then you have a lot more to learn. Ill give you a hint... starts with an "M" ends with a "W", and its a Gospel.

Could it be God is not interested in circumstances or excuses?

God is interested, your comment would stand if that pesky "almost" wasn't around. His attention to detail in this area is proof you are way off in Him not being interested.

Rape, murder, and you name it else should not be an option, but it is. For us to look the other way when people defy God's word amounts to winking at sin which is condemned in Proverbs. Its not a popular line to hold. It will not get you lots of blessings or reputation here, but it is God's word.

Me and you have had to many run in's desi for you to sit here and tell me about looking away when things become unbiblical, your advice to divorcee's or those separated has been unbiblical and every time I DONT turn away you call me self righteious. LOL. So kettle or pot?

By my count Christian women by a large margin initiate separation in my personal experience and around here.

Thats great. Like I said originally for a wife to leave there is always another side. Your wife had opted to leave you before desi (thank God she didn't) but instead of thinking its her being unbiblical, it might be time to look inside. You admitted you were a bad husband.... but it seems as though instead of being humbled arrogance has been placed instead. You said you realized many things during that period of time. It sounds as if you are throwing punches before the bells has rung, if you went through it you must understand the learning process, so it makes no sense that you come in here and run your mouth about intiations in cases as such. THE INITIATION IS SO IRRELEVANT ITS NOT FUNNY, at that point. Picking who is at fault isn't going to save a marriage.Iif you have been in those shoes you should have a leg up on reaching these people... why do you throw that away? You could do so much Good desi.... you really could.
And my count still says otherwise, but both counts are opinion *shrug*

That's it. Misapply a general rule to a specific situation. Separation and or divorce is not a Biblical act of love in any case. I challenge you to name one exception. Or better yet, quote a verse of scripture where a woman is granted permission by God to leave her husband- I've offered several to the contrary only to be ridiculed.

Seperation or divorce-exception: fornification. Challenge met. You are saying to me that gender specifics stand but the same logic is in use here.... what if it doesn't say either then who does it apply to? And better yet what scripture lead you to believe those laws apply to both genders?

The Bible does assign men and women different roles in marriage. I don't know why women think such things are sexist?

Different roles with equality and functionality being the same. I wouldn't know I am not a woman.

Are you suggesting the Bible cannot be gender specific?

I am questioning where you get the notion that all commands are meant for men and women since it doesn't specifically say, thats what your argument is based on, specifics, so I will base it on the same.

When a role is assigned by God it becomes a rule by default.

God doesn't make rules He created a guidline, God may command us to do something but it is an option to do it or not, cause we get to excercise our freewill and in that line of thought its a request not a command. This would make a person unbiblical in doing such but chalk up another amazing gift from God.

Where is equality among the sexes mentioned in the Bible? You've managed to make a long post spouting politically correct nonsense without mentioning one Biblical principle, actually you've ignored a few . Answering this post makes me feel like I'm at General Apologetics arguing against an Atheist about Rational Humanitarianism.

Fine desi, on specifics where is it not mentioned, where does it say they aren't equal? Walking with the filthy hanging with hookers, dying for those that put Him to death, if you are implying Christ makes us equal with all those people male or female (hence the hookers) but not in other aspects, I would laugh...out loud,... shake your hand and walk away. He was pretty specific to who He kicked it with, we could all take a few notes from Him.

I was about as adamant as desi is about divorce, when it came to homosexuality, but I did something that I believe to be Christlike I opened up and walked with them. i talked with them and laughed with them. They were human after all, gay or not, divorced or not, While I sat there in condemnation I sat there in hypocrisy, God showed me that i am no better then them. That we are equal because we all have a chance ( or many) regardless of situation and excuses. Some of us learn from our experences others simply place themselves above all else cause, "they know".

Have at it desi, I bid you adu before one of us gets in trouble again
Have a good one bro.

Warrior Poet

 

[Bartimaeus]

Hey, warrior poet, over here...
Thanks for your reply to Desi. You said some things I should have, but didn't. I forgot, for one thing, about free will, and you put it so much better than I ever could. Thanks.