Women becoming pastors?

Paidiske

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Despite that being a common accusation, I know literally no one who does that. We each arrive at our respective positions having put a lot of careful thought and work into them.

(Good grief, heaven knows it'd be easier to sit down, shut up and warm a pew, on so many levels; but for me to do so would be a complete betrayal of both the God who created me, and my own integrity).
 
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Strong in Him

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The problem with this subject - like any other - is that it depends on how you read, study and understand Scripture.
In these debates over the years, there have been those who have seemed to say, "Paul told Timothy that women should be silent in church ....o.k, silent means silent", and they won't allow them to say anything; at all. This is a literal reading and application of 1 Timothy 2:12.
Fine - except that Scripture itself does not allow for that interpretation. There were female prophets, both in Israel and the early church; women who gave the Lord's word to men. Paul instructed women how to pray and prophesy and he was thankful for the women who worked alongside in him in promoting the Gospel. Jesus allowed the Samaritan woman to go to her town and tell men she might have found the Messiah - they met Jesus and believed, because of her testimony. Jesus also chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection, told her to tell the men the Good News and give them a message from him.

There have also been people who have said, "well we don't need to silence women completely; clearly they can worship God, read the Scriptures, give testimony and (maybe) even preach - but they can't teach, lead or be in authority over, because of 1 Timothy 2:12." This, it seems to me, is inconsistent. Either take, and apply, the Scripture literally, or don't; you can't insist that one bit of a verse is literal but not the rest. The matter of "usurping authority over" is also taken to mean "see, that means women can't tell men what to do", and it is coupled with verses about submissive wives, to try to make the point.
But this approach doesn't make sense. For one thing, being Minister in a congregation is not at all the same as being a husband - it's not that kind of relationship. If I was unhappy with my Minister or the things he was teaching, I would be completely free to leave that church and some Christians might commend me for doing so. If I was unhappy with my husband, the only way out would be to legally seek a divorce - and some Christians would immediately shout "sinner".
For another thing, if a woman believes she is being called, either to preach or to ordination, she goes to her Minister/Vicar and then to a Bishop/Superintendent - who are often men. If male clergy agree that God has called a woman to do this, they train and ordain her. They are recognising the authority God has given her and his call on her life - the woman herself is not saying "I'm taking authority away from you". To claim that a woman who leads a church is usurping male authority, is therefore incorrect. She has not taken on the job herself and is bossing men around, telling them what to do; she has had authority given by God and recognised by the rest of the church - congregation as well.

There are people who base their entire argument for not having female preachers/pastors on this one verse - even then, they may understand it in different ways. Yet when we look at Scripture as a whole, it is clear that women spoke for, prayed to, worshipped and served God. One was a judge, several were prophetesses and gave God's word to men, some formed the prayer meetings, Acts of the Apostles 16:13, Acts of the Apostles 1:14; sometimes the church met in women's homes, Acts of the Apostles 12:12.

So it IS important to read Scripture and ask "is this writing/instruction/advice for us today; how do we understand and apply it?" If one verse appears to be saying one thing, which is not backed up/reflected in the rest of Scripture, it may well be that we have misunderstood it.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The previous arguments regarding the fall and the office of the Pastoral Ministry are moot. Yes, Eve succumbed to the temptation; but Adam did too. Since Adam was was in a position of authority, his sin was at least a great. The admonitions regarding the office of the ministry are much later; no mention of female Priests in the Temple, it is only after the advent of Christianity, that it seems to have become an issue.

Is it possible that some more matriarchal societies among the Gentiles caused the controversies that resulted in the Scriptural admonitions? This was not something that the Jews ever had to consider.
 
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Paidiske

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I think the Jews had their own version of it, and we see it hinted at in things like the repeated admonitions against the cult of the queen of heaven (which was led by priestesses, at least in some places).

My take on the controversy behind the NT statements is that at first, Christianity presented a new and deeply radical equality; Jesus accepted women as disciples, sent them out to spread the word, Paul wrote that there is "not male and female" in Christ, and so on. But as Christianity spread, that was deeply problematic for many people who came to faith, given their patriarchal society and context, and so there was conflict between those who found no problem with Junia, Phoebe, Lydia et al. exercising leadership alongside their brothers, and those who did... and the Scriptural statements are an attempt at finding a way forward in unity.

The tragedy of it all, to my mind, is that the way forward that was found came at the cost of that original radical equality, and the worth and dignity of women, stamping Christianity through with patriarchy from which we are now only just beginning to recover.
 
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Josheb

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A church near me has a woman pastor senior pastor. My take on this that a woman should not be the senior pastor of a church. In which the Bible speaks highly against it.
What is your take on this?
My "take" is that the only "office" the NT prohibits women from holding is that of elder or deacon, and I think that is best understood to be translated "wives" not "women" because all of the examples preceding his admonition are those of married women.

Yes, Paul does say he does not allow women to speak in church and he does not allow a woman to have authority over a man but he wrote those words in the context of women prophetesses in the very same congregations. Presumably, those prophets spoke aloud. If there were wpmen prophets who spoke aloud in the congregation with the authority of God then they de facto held authority over men and were de facto teaching men.

In addition we know that Priscilla and Junias were women apostles. God saw fit to appoint women to the office of apostle. Priscilla and her husband, Aquila, are mentioned three times in the NT and two of those mentions her name precedes his, a convention of the time that indicated her significance over his. We also have the very first witnesses to the resurrection were women. The testified to men and their's was the first preaching of the gospel claim, "He is risen!"

The OT also has several places where women teach men and hold authority over them. Deborah was a prophet who served as Judge over Israel and the sons of Israel came to her for judgment. Because of the male leadership's reluctance to lead she led an entire army into battle (and won). The Proverbs 31 woman hold property, does business brokering in the marketplace, and rules over servants who were invariably male.


So those of us who believe God's word never contradicts itself cannot proof-text single verses that prohibit or restrict women's participation in leadership over men to make the conflict with other scriptures that clearly demonstrate women can and do lead and have authority over men by God's own doing.

I would add this: the modern day pastor looks nothing like the NT era pastor. The first century congregations did not appoint one single man to be responsible for the spiritual development of everyone else. That practice arose as the church became more organized and institutional. There were no church buildings. There were no stages nor pulpits, lecterns, or podiums. There were not backwards collars or a lot of other rituals and practices we now take for granted as givens. Does that mean these are all bad things and we should ceases such practices altogether? No. But it does mean we should understand all of scripture as written and understood by its original readers before we start telling more than half the church population they can't teach or even talk to the other half.

1 Corinthians 12:12-26 (NASB)
"For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, 'Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, 'Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,' it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you;' or again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it."

You members can teach other but you may not speak to us members.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes, Paul does say he does not allow women to speak in church and he does not allow a woman to have authority over a man but he wrote those words in the context of women prophetesses in the very same congregations. Presumably, those prophets spoke aloud. If there were wpmen prophets who spoke aloud in the congregation with the authority of God then they de facto held authority over men and were de facto teaching men.
When a man or women speaks in prophecy it is not so much them that speak but God speaking in and through them . This is where the authority is from, it is in the word of God prophesied. The authority is not in the man or woman’s person or some position authority but rather a spiritual one in Christ as God speaks. So in this case of prophecy it is not the woman speaking. This is why all may prophecy but teaching over the man is another issue which women are not allowed to do . The prophet and teacher are different gifts

As we see in scripture,

Matthew 10:19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

Ephesians 4:11
 
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Josheb

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When a man or women speaks in prophecy it is not so much them that speak but God speaking in and through them. This is where the authority is from, it is in the word of God prophesied. The authority is not in the man or woman’s person or some position authority but rather a spiritual one in Christ as God speaks. So in this case of prophecy it is not the woman speaking. This is why all may prophecy but teaching over the man is another issue which women are not allowed to do . The prophet and teacher are different gifts

As we see in scripture,

Matthew 10:19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

Ephesians 4:11
No, it is the woman speaking. A woman speaking God's words is still a woman speaking and such splitting of hairs to justify inconsistent doctrines is fallacious.

I do hope that post is not intended to imply it is alright for a male to speak in his flesh but not a female.

All those who speak from a position of authority should do so consequential to the leading, if not the inspiration, of the Spirit and if you are attending a congregation where the leaders do not do so then I encourage you to visit other congregations.

I cited several examples in scripture where women spoke in the ekklesia, held authority in the ekklesia, and did so often over men. Whatever verses state women shouldn't speak or hold authority must be reconciled to the whole of scripture.
 
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