WoF verses Non-WoF

[Yahu]

The only consequence for a believer for ungodlness is the lack of reward.

It can kill you early. In a way that is 'lack of reward'. It takes away your capability to earn greater rewards. So in a way, you are correct but that also means there are consequences in this life as well.

 

[dkbwarrior]

It can kill you early. In a way that is 'lack of reward'. It takes away your capability to earn greater rewards. So in a way, you are correct but that also means there are consequences in this life as well.

Definitely true. While we seem to disagree on alot of the mechanics on how things come about, we do seem to all agree that sin does result in bad consequences in ones life, regardless of whether we agree on who is the one behind it. While the believer may not face an eternal consequence, (other than lack of reward), he/she may well face a natural one, as sin in the flesh reaps a reward in the flesh. Makes me think of 1 Corinthians 5 where a christian brother was sleeping with his stepmother:

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
-1 Corinthians 5:3-5

Seems to me that he was likely to face a physical consequence in his fleshly body, administered by satan, yet his spirit would still be saved. Not a good place to find oneself, to be sure.

In such a case, this brother could try to believe God all he wants for deliverance from the physical consequence of his sin, but until he repents, he wont get nothing.

Peace...

 

[Yahu]

Definitely true. While we seem to disagree on alot of the mechanics on how things come about, we do seem to all agree that sin does result in bad consequences in ones life, regardless of whether we agree on who is the one behind it. While the believer may not face an eternal consequence, (other than lack of reward), he/she may well face a natural one, as sin in the flesh reaps a reward in the flesh. Makes me think of 1 Corinthians 5 where a christian brother was sleeping with his stepmother:

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
-1 Corinthians 5:3-5

Seems to me that he was likely to face a physical consequence in his fleshly body, administered by satan, yet his spirit would still be saved. Not a good place to find oneself, to be sure.

In such a case, this brother could try to believe God all he wants for deliverance from the physical consequence of his sin, but until he repents, he wont get nothing.

Peace...

LOL, that has been my point all along!

Does it really matter if Yah or Satan following Yah's law is the one that causes the consequences? My point has been that you can't sin that grace may abound and expect to do so without consequences. You have to balance grace with righteous behavior that comes from being transformed into a representation of Yeshua on earth. The more you grow spiritually, the less you have to rely on grace because you should be rooting out sin from your life.

There is a big difference between sanctification and salvation. Just because we have salvation of the spirit doesn't mean we have achieved sanctification of the soul. Yeshua did NOT accomplish everything on the cross. He did finish our salvation but the sanctification of our soul to overcome our flesh is a continuing work for the rest of our lives. The means to do so has been accomplished but that work of the Holy Spirit is still in the process of achieving a Christlike nature in us and the end product is personal righteousness which is Yeshua shining through us. The righteousness achieved will be reflected in the 'robes of righteousness' we receive as a heavenly reward. We will openly wear that level of righteousness for eternity.

Who wants to spend eternity is a filthy spotted rag? If you don't have on a wedding garment, you may be cast from the wedding feast.

IMO WoF tends to focus on bringing blessings upon yourself while the focus SHOULD BE on bringing blessings to others. The emphasis should be on spiritual growth, not on personal blessings. Outward blessings is NOT an indication of Yah's favor. Job had Yah's favor and look what happened to him. Joseph had Yah's favor but spent time in prison. You can't judge someone's blessings by their current physical situation.

 

[dkbwarrior]

LOL, that has been my point all along!

You can't judge someone's blessings by their current physical situation.

Agreed. I would go further and say that you cannot judge ones level of faith by their current phisical situation either. This is an excerpt from part seven of a discipleship course a developed and wrote for our church. I teach from it once a year:

We need to take a close look at the application of the term EVIDENCE in describing FAITH. Mainly, because it is vastly important that no one misunderstands the message of FAITH as condemnation regarding whatever circumstances and/or trials they may be going through in their own lives.
FAITH is not only the SUBSTANCE of the PROMISES of God that we are HOPING for, it is also the EVIDENCE of the PROMISES of God that WE DO NOT SEE. Because we live in a fallen world, we cannot look around us and judge the will of God by the CIRCUMSTANCES that surround us. Nor can we judge the level of our FAITH, or anyone else’s for that matter, by the CIRCUMSTANCES that we encounter.
I have heard some that have a faulty or incomplete understanding of the faith message say that if you are sick, poor, injured or depressed, then you must not have faith. That is, if there is any area in your life that THE EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES of Gods Word are not fully manifested, then this is an area that you lack faith. Not only is this a false barometer to judge ones faith by, it can also be extremely damaging to someone who finds themselves in a difficult or emotionally taxing circumstance, sickness/disability, or financial hardship. It can cause condemnation, and even result in pushing someone away from God altogether.
FAITH is the EVIDENCE of a PROMISE of God NOT YET SEEN, therefore by definition, one cannot judge a person’s FAITH by what they see. Rather, FAITH is revealed by a person’s CONFESSION, that is, their WORDS; not by a person’s CIRCUMSTANCE.

Peace...

 

[TasManOfGod]

Ok then.

But the question remains: Why?

Why should one be "very careful about misrepresenting the nature of God"?



peace,
Simon

Think of the impact your "works" will have on the kingdom. Are these works that you would suppose would receive reward?

 

[Yahu]

Why should one be "very careful about misrepresenting the nature of God"?
peace,
Simon

Essentially you would be following a 'false god' if you follow a misrepresentation of Yah. The pagan gods were gods of specific attributes. We should be following the Creator represented by ALL of His attributes.

If you follow the god of fortune that would be 'Baal-gad'. If you follow the god of love, that would be 'Baal-peor'. Whereas if you follow YHVH, you follow the creator that can be loving but is also Just, Righteous, Jealous, Vengeful, ...

In His aspect of Jealousy, He doesn't like to be misrepresented by having His followers follow a different god then Him. Having a misrepresentation of Him is a major error in His eyes.

 

[Simon Peter]

Essentially you would be following a 'false god' if you follow a misrepresentation of Yah. The pagan gods were gods of specific attributes. We should be following the Creator represented by ALL of His attributes.

If you follow the god of fortune that would be 'Baal-gad'. If you follow the god of love, that would be 'Baal-peor'. Whereas if you follow YHVH, you follow the creator that can be loving but is also Just, Righteous, Jealous, Vengeful, ...

In His aspect of Jealousy, He doesn't like to be misrepresented by having His followers follow a different god then Him. Having a misrepresentation of Him is a major error in His eyes.

Of course we must not misrepresent the nature of God.

(I thought we'd had this conversation already.)

My question was directed at a specific poster, because I wanted to know what his reason/reasons were.


peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

Agreed. I would go further and say that you cannot judge ones level of faith by their current phisical situation either. This is an excerpt from part seven of a discipleship course a developed and wrote for our church. I teach from it once a year:


Peace...

Again true. The greater the impact you have on the enemy, the greater the opposition against you because of it. For example, the enemy tries to discredit or kill any prophets. They are the most dangerous in exposing the ways and error of the enemy. That makes them a prime target.

Just look what the followers of Diana did to Paul in Ephesus. If you are having an impact, expect great opposition. Generally I see being prosperous as not being under major attack by the enemy therefore you are not a threat to them.

 

[DennisTate]

I attended a Charismatic bible college for a while. I went because it claimed to teach only scripture and not doctrines of man. What I later found out was it was WoF based while the founder claimed it was geared towards spiritual warfare.

.......

When I got to the WoF bible college I was appauled at the level of witchcraft that was rooted in the WoF doctrines. I thought I was called there to learn more about spiritual warfare. What ended up happening was I was doing spiritual warfare against the influences within the college.

.....F.

Yahu, would you approve of or disapprove of the practice of praying over olive oil and anointing the door frames and windows of your home?

 

[Alive_Again]

When I got to the WoF bible college I was appauled at the level of witchcraft that was rooted in the WoF doctrines.

You're not talking about a person, you're talking about a doctrine. Since you took a potshot at it, why don't you explain the doctrine, rather than making an unqualified comparison of WOF and witchcraft?

 

[lismore]

You're not talking about a person, you're talking about a doctrine. Since you took a potshot at it, why don't you explain the doctrine, rather than making an unqualified comparison of WOF and witchcraft?

I think he might be talking about the Napoleon Hill type of thing.

 

[Alive_Again]

I think he might be talking about the Napoleon Hill type of thing

???

In the debate area among us "charismatics", we are to bring things into the light to be judged or weighed and examined for validity. It is not charitable for those in the "WOF" "side" of the forum to receive potshots. Every doctrine can and should be examined for validity. Having an "understanding" of a perception of what "WOF" is, is not really doing this. WOF in its pure form, is an acknowledgment of the Word of God as our ultimate guide and authority. It's the Word that is nigh thee (on the inside coming out). It's what the Word calls "word of faith".

We all deviate at times from what's in the Word, but if we're going to walk in love here and let the love we have for each other (sometimes seems like a joke to say here in the debate area at times) be an example that we are His disciples, then let's stick to bringing things into the light and not have "either side" of the coin let remarks like this go unchallenged.

God assumes when we do not speak out against bad judgment, that we agree with it. We can partake of the sins of others by not speaking out. Let's not give the enemy the power of agreement here and let charity rule in the way we interact? Sound appropriate?

We don't want to sink into a pharisee/saducee type of scenario where we leaven each other with a hyppocritical rendering of judgment, where we become defiled in our so called seeking of truth.

 

[DennisTate]

My calling is a call to repentance for the people.

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of YHVH but few people seem to fear the consequences of their actions. The church is full of foolish children that think Yah is just a bigger version of Santa.

Well said!

If we truly understood how phenomenal heaven is and how terrifying hell is we would all live very very very differently.

Have you read about the full fledged calling on Elijah?

What do you think of the idea that he has to "pacify the wrath of the Lord" as well as "restore the tribes of Israel?"

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48

And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch..............Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob.

I may be wrong but at this time I am wide open to the idea that perhaps Orthodox Jewish scholar and historian Yair Davidiy adds some fascinating idea on where parts of the lost tribes of Israel have migrated?!


Messiah son of Joseph

"At first the union [of Judah with Joseph] comes about through arousal from below by way of nature [through our actions] as it says, “Join them one to another into one stick.” And afterwards [the re-union is confirmed] in a miraculous manner, [through the hand of God, as it says in Ezekiel “they shall become on in Your hand” meaning they shall become re-united in the hand of God! Comes From the North “Kol HaTor” says [2.11] “His glory is like the firstborn of his bull” (Deuteronomy 33;17). The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH comes from the north side and will be aroused by himself. i.e. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH will come from somewhere in the north or at least to the north of the Land of Israel. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH will Defeat Esau meaning the forces of Europe. “Kol HaTor” says [2.17] The guardian angel of Esau will be pulled down by the guardian angel of Joseph (This is also spoken about in the Biblical Book of Obadiah. We will discuss this subject and the Book of Obadiah in another talk). Expands Borders of Israel, Wars Against Amalek “Kol HaTor” says [2.36] “Enlarge the place of your tent and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations...” (Isaiah 54;2). The commandment to expand the borders [of Israel] is part of the task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH has the duty of waging war against Amalek and of expanding the borders of Israel and of protecting Israel from destruction. Comment: “Amalek” represents anti-Semitism and the attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Britain and America in the 19th and early 20th century did often attempt to protect the Jews in Europe from Anti-Semitism. In the Second World War Britain and the USA defeated Nazi Germany and Japan. Nazi Germany had planned to exterminate the Jewish people and did murder one-third of the total Jewish population in the World at that time.

Since the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 the USA has often helped protect the State of Israel from destruction......"

The First Redeemer [MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH] fights against Amalek with total warfare…[he fights against the forces of anti-Semitism]. This was the task of Joshua ben Nun who was [a forerunner and ancestor of] the Messiah Son of Joseph. Aroused by Elijah “Kol HaTor” says [2.71] “Behold I will send you my prophet Elijah…and he will return the hearts of the fathers to their sons” (Malachi 4). One of the tasks of Elijah is to arouse the spirit of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Comment:

[Malachi 4:5] BEHOLD, I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH THE PROPHET BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD: [Malachi 4:6] AND HE SHALL TURN THE HEART OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN, AND THE HEART OF THE CHILDREN TO THEIR FATHERS, LEST I COME AND SMITE THE EARTH WITH A CURSE.
(Yair Davidiy, MOSHIACH BEN YOSEPH)

 

[lismore]

???

In the debate area among us "charismatics", we are to bring things into the light to be judged or weighed and examined for validity. It is not charitable for those in the "WOF" "side" of the forum to receive potshots. Every doctrine can and should be examined for validity. Having an "understanding" of a perception of what "WOF" is, is not really doing this. WOF in its pure form, is an acknowledgment of the Word of God as our ultimate guide and authority. It's the Word that is nigh thee (on the inside coming out). It's what the Word calls "word of faith".

We all deviate at times from what's in the Word, but if we're going to walk in love here and let the love we have for each other (sometimes seems like a joke to say here in the debate area at times) be an example that we are His disciples, then let's stick to bringing things into the light and not have "either side" of the coin let remarks like this go unchallenged.

God assumes when we do not speak out against bad judgment, that we agree with it. We can partake of the sins of others by not speaking out. Let's not give the enemy the power of agreement here and let charity rule in the way we interact? Sound appropriate?

We don't want to sink into a pharisee/saducee type of scenario where we leaven each other with a hyppocritical rendering of judgment, where we become defiled in our so called seeking of truth.

Amen. Well said.

 

[Optimax]

???

In the debate area among us "charismatics", we are to bring things into the light to be judged or weighed and examined for validity. It is not charitable for those in the "WOF" "side" of the forum to receive potshots. Every doctrine can and should be examined for validity. Having an "understanding" of a perception of what "WOF" is, is not really doing this. WOF in its pure form, is an acknowledgment of the Word of God as our ultimate guide and authority. It's the Word that is nigh thee (on the inside coming out). It's what the Word calls "word of faith".

We all deviate at times from what's in the Word, but if we're going to walk in love here and let the love we have for each other (sometimes seems like a joke to say here in the debate area at times) be an example that we are His disciples, then let's stick to bringing things into the light and not have "either side" of the coin let remarks like this go unchallenged.

God assumes when we do not speak out against bad judgment, that we agree with it. We can partake of the sins of others by not speaking out. Let's not give the enemy the power of agreement here and let charity rule in the way we interact? Sound appropriate?

We don't want to sink into a pharisee/saducee type of scenario where we leaven each other with a hyppocritical rendering of judgment, where we become defiled in our so called seeking of truth.

Lot of Wisdom here!

 

[KimberlyAA]

I had never heard of Word Of Faith before. After doing some reading I found this :

Additionally, many beliefs that the movement holds as essentials are often criticised by some Christians as diverging from Christian orthodoxy.[citation needed] The movement emphasizes speaking, stating, or confessing verses found in the

Bible, called the Word of God. The belief is that if one believes the Word of God and confesses it then the believer shall receive what they confess. This act of believing and speaking is said to be described by Jesus in Mark 11:22-23[bible 3]. The term word of faith itself is derived from the biblical passage Romans 10:8[bible 4] which speaks of "the word of faith that we preach."

 

[Yahu]

Yahu, would you approve of or disapprove of the practice of praying over olive oil and anointing the door frames and windows of your home?

I don't have anything against it. How is that any different then applying the blood to the door posts for passover? The Jews even keep a scripture at their door as a blessing over the house. It is a valid use of our spiritual authority against the enemy realm. It is in getting the enemy to serve you in going after someone else's life that I see as evil even if it is done via prayer. We don't have a right to impose our will over another UNLESS they are under our Yah given authority like a parent over a child. A child trying to impose their will over a parent is evil while a parent imposing their will over a child is not. It is all about the proper use or misuse of authority. We do have authority over what we allow into our house.

 

[Yahu]

You're not talking about a person, you're talking about a doctrine. Since you took a potshot at it, why don't you explain the doctrine, rather than making an unqualified comparison of WOF and witchcraft?

First off you have to understand what constitutes witchcraft.

Scripture says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Rebellion is rejecting a valid authority. Witchcraft is the flip side. It is usurping invalid authority. Generally ritual witchcraft has to do with usurping spiritual authority over demonic forces to serve your will by worship of yet higher level demonic forces.

The types of things that stank of witchcraft were the severe abuses of authority like commanding the demonic realm to bring you blessings. By commanding blessings using spiritual authority to gain things you have not met the perquisites for is witchcraft. Attempting to use your bible as a spell book that all you have to do is speak these magic words and have faith is witchcraft. The promises of Yah are conditional on you meeting the requirements like gaining salvation IF you confess AND acknowledge Yeshua as Lord.

 

[TasManOfGod]

The only witchcraft that is going on here is the conjuring of an evil report.

 

[Yahu]

I had never heard of Word Of Faith before. After doing some reading I found this :

You may have heard of WoF under the label, 'name it, claim it'. The emphasis is on SPEAKING the word instead of doing it by using your bible as a spell book full of magic words to gain you blessings.

Now some WoF doctrines are fine. It is generally the abuses within WoF that get people off track. Expecting Yah to bless you because you demand He meet a scriptural promise while living in the flesh is just plain wrong.

Blessing are for those that obey, not those that demand the reward while being in disobedience.