Without Human Existence, Does God Need to Be Good?

[jenny1972]

Well, I didn´t speak of religion. I spoke of the necessity of theology being involved once we start talking about "God".
Look, without a - at least rudimentary theology - you wouldn´t even have been able to tell whether what you experienced was the reality of God.

religion is theology and no i did not believe in any theology in fact i was opposed to theology , your opinion that i could only know that my experience with God was from God through theology is wrong in fact at first i attributed the experience to other things but i quickly became absolutely convinced it was from God.

 

[quatona]

religion is theology

No, sorry, these are two distinct concepts.

and no i did not believe in any theology in fact i was opposed to theology , your opinion that i could only know that my experience with God was from God through theology is wrong in fact at first i attributed the experience to other things but i quickly became absolutely convinced it was from God.

You became convinced that it was "the reality of God" without having a god concept?
I think that´s logically impossible (in order to identify something as x you must have an idea what X is supposed to be), but feel free to describe how that worked.

 

[jenny1972]

You became convinced that it was "the reality of God" without having a god concept?

yes i did know of course the concept of God although i was against religion and theology how could i be against these belief systems without knowing what the beliefs involved? both religion and theology are man made philosophies and they might as well be the same thing although you can make distinctions between the two as can be made with any two things.

 

[heatedmonk]

Isaiah 45:7
Psalms 139:7-8

 

[quatona]

yes i did know of course the concept of God although i was against religion and theology how could i be against these belief systems without knowing what the beliefs were?

Exactly my point.

both religion and theology are man made philosophies and they might as well be the same thing

No, they aren´t the same thing. Please consult a dictionary.
(And neither of them is a philosophy, btw.)

although you can make distinctions between the two as can be made with any two things.

Yes, which means they aren´t the same concepts. I was referring to "theology", not to "religion". Thus, I get frustrated when you respond as though I had referred to "religion".

 

[jenny1972]

No, they aren´t the same thing. Please consult a dictionary.
(And neither of them is a philosophy, btw.)

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. [note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe.

the·ol·o·gy THēˈäləjē/noun: theology the study of the nature of God and religious belief.religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.

phi·los·o·phy fəˈläsəfē/noun philosophy the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.a particular system of philosophical thought.

both theology and religion is a study of the nature of God and both absolutely are philosophy

 

[quatona]

the·ol·o·gy
THēˈäləjē/
noun
noun: theology
the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.

Bingo.

both are related to religion and the nature of God

"is related to" and "is" aren´t synonyms.

Now, before we take this thread off-topic - would you be willing to tell me what you understood my first post (that you responded to) to say, and how your responses addressed it?

 

[jenny1972]

No matter whether and which God exists or not - humans have come up with the idea of a God existing, and this "invention" served a purpose (or several purposes), fulfilled needs and/or answered existential questions. You can´t have a god concept without having a (even if only rudimentary) theology (an idea what this God is, how this God is, what are God´s traits and properties).
Without theology, God wouldn´t even be worth a thought. It would be an empty concept - i.e. no concept at all. God concepts are created by and depend on there being a theology.

your opinion that without theology " God wouldnt even be worth a thought it would be an empty concept .... God concepts are created by and depend on there being a theology " is what i was responding to when i said that my awareness of God and my experience with God was outside religion and theology . theology is not synonymous with "awareness of the concept of God" it is synonymous with "the study of God and religion" . every human being that can think conceptualizes even without the construct of theology.

 

[quatona]

your opinion that without theology " God wouldnt even be worth a thought it would be an empty concept .... God concepts are created by and depend on there being a theology " is what i was responding to when i said that my awareness of God and my experience with God was outside religion and theology . theology is not synonymous with "awareness of the concept of God" it is synonymous with "the study of God and religion" . every human being that can think conceptualizes even without the construct of theology.

Ok.
The post I responded to emphasized the will to explore the question in an abstractly philosophical manner (as opposed to introducing theological concepts and teachings).
I responded expressing my view that this is impossible, since a god concept (a prerequisite for discussing the topic) is in itself a result of (albeit possibly but rudimentary) theology (study of religion). [Admittedly, there is the academic possibility, though, that a person comes up with the term God and a concept thereof all by themselves, without being introduced to it by their environment.]
In short: We need a god concept (which is a theological product) in order to meaningfully discuss the topic at hand.

Now, what is the relevance of your objection that you have "experienced God´s reality" at a time when you already held a god concept?

 

[heatedmonk]

One might consider that the adjective, good, is a subjective article of attachment that is defined by humans and is not at all applicable to spirit.

 

[jenny1972]

Now, what is the relevance of your objection that you have "experienced God´s reality" at a time when you already held a god concept?

because of your premise that it is impossible to attribute an experience to God outside of theology and your theory that a concept of God can only be a result of theology ..... i disagree with you and i explained why.

so my comment was a response to your theory that a concept of God cannot exist outside theology , it can as long as humans can think . human thinking exists outside theology . and so does God

 

[quatona]

because of your premise that it is impossible to attribute an experience to God outside of theology and your theory that a concept of God can only be a result of theology ..... i disagree with.

The original point I tried to make (in response to Philovoid) was: we don´t get far hypothetizing about a God without ascribing attributes to this God.
That was the important point.
As for the semantics part:
I consider theoretizing about attributes of God a theological occupation. If you don´t agree with this terminology, I guess I can live with that. It doesn´t take away from my point, though.

I hope that Philovoid understands the problem I was trying to point out.

 

[jenny1972]

The original point I tried to make (in response to Philovoid) was: we don´t get far hypothetizing about a God without ascribing attributes to this God.
That was the important point.
As for the semantics part:
I consider theoretizing about attributes of God a theological occupation. If you don´t agree with this terminology, I guess I can live with that. It doesn´t take away from my point, though.

you were making a couple different points in your post and i was just replying to 2 of them , as far as " we don´t get far hypothetizing about a God without ascribing attributes to this God. " i do agree with you on that . i also agree that " theoretizing about attributes of God is theological occupation " . so we agree on 2 things and disagree on 2 things (so far lol)

 

[quatona]

you were making a couple different points in your points and i was just relying to 2 of them , as far as " we don´t get far hypothetizing about a God without ascribing attributes to this God. " i do agree with you on that . i also agree that " theoretizing about attributes of God is theological occupation " . so we agree on 2 things and disagree on 2 things (so far lol)

I´m sorry but I fail to see those points we disagree upon.
(We needn´t harp on disagreements, though - unless they are relevant for the topic ).

 

[jenny1972]

I´m sorry but I fail to see those points we disagree upon.
(We needn´t harp on disagreements, though - unless they are relevant for the topic ).
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1.we disagree about your opinion that a person "cannot have a concept of God outside theology" , as a concept is a product of human thinking not theology.
2.we disagree about your opinion that "it is impossible to attribute an experience to God outside of theology" through my own personal experice i know that a person can in fact do this.

 

[quatona]

1.we disagree about your opinion that a person "cannot have a concept of God outside theology" , as a concept is a product of human thinking not theology.

Well, if I am not entirely mistaken, you did agree that you cannot attribute anything to X without having a concept of X. You also agreed that forming a god concept is a theological occupation. Thus I am surprised that you disagree with synthesis of these statements.

2.we disagree about your opinion that "it is impossible to attribute an experience to God outside of theology" through my own personal experice i know that a person can in fact do this.

I am too lazy to go back and search the whole thread...but I am actually pretty sure that this is not an exact quote of mine.

 

[jenny1972]

I responded expressing my view that this is impossible, since a god concept (a prerequisite for discussing the topic) is in itself a result of (albeit possibly but rudimentary) theology (study of religion).

well i condensed your quote ^

but we do agree on your main point that this topic cannot remain an abstract philosophical discussion as the OP desires , simply because a discussion involves more than stating the opinion " i dont know " or " maybe " or or yes or no (for those who believe that they know lol) discussions go beyond opinions and will naturally lead to other philosophical threads if it is to become a discussion and continue beyond opinion of i dont know/i do know (yes or no) . so essentially yes i agree with you

 

[quatona]

well i condensed your quote ^

Jenny, I found the condensed version to not reflect my opinion. Can we leave it at that?

but we do agree on your main point that this topic cannot remain an abstract philosophical discussion as the OP desires , simply because a discussion involves more than stating the opinion " i dont know " or " maybe " or or yes or no (for those who believe that they know lol) discussions go beyond opinions and will naturally lead to other philosophical threads if it is to become a discussion and continue beyond opinion of i dont know/i do know (yes or no) . so essentially yes i agree with you

Not to carelessly destroy this precious moment of agreement - but I am not sure that our reasoning is the same (to be honest, I am afraid I might not have really understood this breathless monster sentence. ).

Maybe I can illustrate my point by simply asking the question: "Why is it even so important that God is good?".
I am basically anticipating two kinds of answers: Either they come down some version of "Because we want it so./Because that´s why we want there to be a God.", or out will come the more refined details of the god concept the person holds (i.e. theological details and reasoning).

 

[jenny1972]

Not to carelessly destroy this precious moment of agreement - but I am not sure that our reasoning is the same (to be honest, I am afraid I might not have really understood this breathless monster sentence. ).

Maybe I can illustrate my point by simply asking the question: "Why is it even so important that God is good?".
I am basically anticipating two kinds of answers: Either they come down some version of "Because we want it so./Because that´s why we want there to be a God.", or out will come the more refined details of the god concept the person holds (i.e. theological details and reasoning).
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lol ok yes lets move on i agree completely

"Why is it even so important that God is good?" i think the idea that God is good gives people comfort , good qualities such as love and concern for humanity if we did not know this we would still attribute these things to God . I do believe completely that God is Love and i consider this a very good thing . i feel this way because it is a feeling that God gives me i realize that you do not believe that but then again you dont believe in the existence of God so naturally you would dismiss any revelations that might come from such God .

 

[quatona]

lol ok yes lets move on i agree completely
View attachment 163955
"Why is it even so important that God is good?" i think the idea that God is good gives people comfort , good qualities such as love and concern for humanity if we did not know this we would still attribute these things to God . I do believe completely that God is Love and i consider this a very good thing . i feel this way because it is a feeling that God gives me i realize that you do not believe that but then again you dont believe in the existence of God so naturally you would dismiss any revelations that might come from such God .

No, Jenny - whether I believe in God or not is completely irrelevant here.
The OP poses two hypotheticals:
1. There´s a God (whatever this may be), and
2. there are no humans (or other entities God can direct His actions to).
I have accepted both for purposes of this discussion.

(Note, btw, how there are already theological details hidden in these premises: God is a personal entity, God is conscious, God is acting, God has desires,...)

On another note, the OP demands a strictly abstract philosophical discussion, and that´s the reason why I think your or anyone´s personal revelations do not belong here. (I´d love to argue that - once you have adopted the idea that God is good/love - there is no other way than experiencing God as good and loving, simply because you wouldn´t attribute anything else to him. After all, that the way you determined God to be their source. But, as I said, sadly that´s off-topic). We can discuss this elsewhere, any time.