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Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.Oh I agree! And there are many references to "Babylon" falling, etc. But it's less about Rome specifically and more about the very idea of God's enemies - like Gog / Magog in Ezekiel - being judged finally and for all time. In other words, yes, John is saying he shares their sufferings (tribulations) in chapter 1 and the time is near. It's about Rome persecuting the church. But in a way it is so symbolically written it's not just Rome he's focussing on. It's a bit different to say, Paul writing specifically to the Corinthians about their problems and we are all meant to learn from that. It's more like John is writing to the 7 churches which in a way represent warnings and encouragements to ALL churches - John writing about Roman persecution but so symbolically that it could be ALL persecuted churches in all generations. See the difference? This is pretty much the stance of Phd in history and Theologian Dr Paul Barnett. He conducted tours of the Middle East and bible lands for many years, and taught history at Macquarie University as well as his time in ministry. He was a Sydney Anglican Bishop when he retired. He draws on the Roman imagery throughout Revelation - but also points out how stylistic and symbolic the writing is so that it also applies to all Christians suffering. Or tempted by success and wealth! It's all in there - if only people would stop trying to read it as a time-table!
Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.
I might not be describing this very well, and I think we'd probably agree more than we disagree.Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.
What we can take from Galatians is message of being saved by grace, not works. That’s universal. That’s the issue Paul was dealing with. It’s a didactic letter.I might not be describing this very well, and I think we'd probably agree more than we disagree.
That is, yes, it's about 7 specific churches at that time.
But so was Galatians written to a church in Galatia, and Corinthians to Corinth, etc. Yet we learn from them as well, and once we've done the hermeneutics to understand what it meant to the original audience and culture, we can apply it to today.
In a way, John goes beyond this. According to Barnett, there were at least 10 big churches in Asia Minor by the time John was writing. Yet he chose the number 7. Why? He was writing the most symbol-full book in the bible - and numbers and colours and names are all important and symbolic while also sometimes describing real events happening to that generation then.
It's like John was consciously describing (not prescribing in timetable fashion as a futurist would read it) what was happening in those churches but with all future generations in mind - warning all of us.
Here's a challenge.
Grab your favourite drink and snack, and watch these.
They're only about 11 minutes each.
It's layered - it's specifically about Roman persecution of the church - but it's also written in such universal apocalyptic symbols we can learn from their situation what to do in times of persecution, wealth, prosperity, when tempted to trust in military power, etc.What we can take from Galatians is message of being saved by grace, not works. That’s universal. That’s the issue Paul was dealing with. It’s a didactic letter.
I don’t think you can apply the same principle with Revelation. As @parousia70 said, there are things we can learn from it. But we still have to accept the reality that it was a specific letter preparing the churches for the soon-coming apocalypse. There’s no reason exegetically to extend that past the events of the first century, except where called for in the last chapters.
It's like John was consciously describing (not prescribing in timetable fashion as a futurist would read it) what was happening in those churches but with all future generations in mind - warning all of us.
It's layered - it's specifically about Roman persecution of the church - but it's also written in such universal apocalyptic symbols we can learn from their situation what to do in times of persecution, wealth, prosperity, when tempted to trust in military power, etc.
I can't disagree.
And what do we do with the knowledge that yet more timetables based on a future-schedule reading of Revelation have proved wrong? Yet again? How passionate were the people promoting these timetables? How utterly certain?
To your knowledge, has anyone lost their faith over this?
Here's one.To get back on the topic of the OP - did any timetables on here expire last year?
Thank you, Clanijia; you do have the facts about me correct.@keras had a failed prediction about the year 2012:
I see the nay sayers and the prophecy rejecters as the arrogant ones.OK! So there are a few. This might be a useful exercise every year - to try and bring some much needed humility into the futurist community.
Nope. They will calmly say to themselves "oh, so this is how it was supposed to happen" and thats all. Do not postulate some tragedy.Actually, I feel sorry for those who have chosen to reject the end time Prophesies. They will be shocked and without a clue on the Day the Lord takes action.
So you contend that any unfulfilled prophecy, as Written in our Bibles, is untrue?Deuteronomy 18:21-22 21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
You don't have any idea of how bad the Lord's Day of fiery wrath is going to be. The prophesies say people will be so frightened they will wet their pants. Ezekiel 7:17Nope. They will calmly say to themselves "oh, so this is how it was supposed to happen" and thats all. Do not postulate some tragedy.
Then; remember to call upon the Name of the Lord, for His protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21The only thing that always matters is to have real faith and to live a holy life.
Not sure how earthquake is caring about if you are a futurist or a preterist. It will either happen or not and your eschatological view will not help you.Have you ever been in an earthquake? It is very scary, as you lose the sense of a stable ground to stand on. Combined with enveloping fire and extreme storms, beyond anything imaginable for people today, but the Prophets vividly say it will happen.
Actually, the only disadvantage is on the futurists side, because they constantly lose their credibility with all the hysterical and wrong predictions.However, to have not bothered to take note of the large amount of scriptures, which carefully describe what God has planned to do, is a serious mistake and may lead to some disadvantage.
Which is what this thread is all about.Actually, the only disadvantage is on the futurists side, because they constantly lose their credibility with all the hysterical and wrong predictions.
Yes, the unbalanced stressing of eschatology like if it was something primary, is common in futurism. New Christians can then be mislead into thinking that Christianity cannot work without that.Which is what this thread is all about.
They don't just lose credibility themselves, but they make the gospel more unbelievable to unbelievers that sadly read their blogs, and then feel the gospel itself has the same expiry date as their 'predictions.' They're done.
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