With all the UR threads...

[HuntingMan]

I also said...

We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case

 

[Tissue]

"We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment (X) to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case (Y)"

It helps if you insert the understood "that" to show why this is two propositions:

1) The why of eternal torment
2) That God tells us of eternal torment

Again, the system deals with one proposition at a time. You can pick one or the other to plug it in. But the system does not attempt to answer for multiple propositions.

 

[Armistead]

Sounds like nothing but human reasoning, Armistead....a human mind that doesnt seem to be able to accept that it doesnt know the mind of the Living GOD whos word CLEARLY proclaims eternal condemnation.

I accept that I am made in the image of the living God and God wants us to use human reasoning. Why, because it is our conscience and guide. Certainly, to some level, the justice in our spirits must somehow reflect on the character of God. If in my mind it is sickening to torture people, as it should be, I would think God placed that concept in my being as it is part of his character.

Could you brutally torture something because you had the power? No, or would hope not. It sickens most men..it's replusive to our souls. However, why it sickens our sould, you would teach God can do it without pause.

Again, there is a strong connection between all the past evils done by religion and the concept of eternal torture.

Once the church accepted a God that would eternally torture man, look at the actions that followed, boiling people in water, witch hunts, beheadings, feeding people to tigers, ect.. But hey, when the church accepted that God can torture, they grasped the concept and went full force with it doing things that are sickening to their fellow man.

If one clearly studies history, one can see after eternal torture entered the church, religion put upon man acts of torture beyound description.
The two are clearly connected.

 

[Rajni]

Keep this in mind.

2000 years after the gospel was sent into the world, there are literally thousands of languages in the earth today which do NOT have even pieces of Scriptures let alone an entire Bible?

Do you understand that from Adam to the present day, probably well over 95 percent of the world never heard the one name under which men must be saved?

Are you also aware that most of the world who did hear the name hear it from a Catholic priest who told them that Jesus was a piece of cracker which they had to eat in order to be saved?

Are you also aware that most denominations of Christianity throughout the ages have added hundreds of other qualifications which potential converts also had to perform or rules one had to abide by in order to stay saved? The list is endless-it ranges from being a member of the "right" church or denomination to a certain form of water baptism to declaring a certain formula to having to speak in tongues, etc.

Then once a person is saved, there are literally hundreds of ways one can lose their salvation according to the thousands of different denominations which have formed around creeds, men, styles of buildings and worship, nationality, forms of church government, etc.

Let's face it, if we add all the things Jesus said about those who thought they knew Him but whom He would say to, "I never knew you,"(Matt. 7:23) and the many luke-warm who he would "vomit" out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16), surely there is scarcely a person who can really have absolute assurance they are truly saved.

Contrast this depressing situation with the nature and character of our heavenly Father and His Son. Do you see a terrible discrepancy? As a matter of fact, the discrepancy is so great that many trasitional Christians have had to create other gospels remedy this great gap.

Some Christians have invented the "age of accountability" to get the little ones out of the eternal flames. Surely they do it quite unscripturally. There isn't a shred of Scripture which supports such a cause noble as it may be. The Scriptures plainly state "there is NONE righteous, nay, not one." (Rom. 3:10-12) "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23) No-the teaching that children are innocent until a mythical age of accountability might partially remove the black eye he suffered from the church's "good news" which is terribly bad for almost ALL of mankind, but it's not in the Bible.

Some well-meaning Christians try to justify God for sending almost all of mankind to Hell even though they never heard the name of Christ by stating Romans 1:20 which makes it plain that all can see that there is a god just by looking at trees, stars, rocks, etc. Well, there were MANY heathens who believed in a god through nature. The nation of Israel was surrounded by nations who believed in gods of all kind because they saw something divine in nature, but did that save them? NO! They were called idolators! One does not find Jesus by looking at clouds and trees. One finds Jesus through the preaching of the Good News. No preaching, no salvation. Archaeology conclusively proves this fact. We only find Christian civilizations where the Gospel was preached. We do NOT find it in civilizations in which there were no Bibles or preachers of the Gospel.
Many will make up clauses, tell mythical stories of Christ coming at the brink of death, but these are simply more lies to try and make hell..not as bad or full.

They try to get some of those who never heard the gospel into heaven because they realize it isn't fair to send someone to Hell if they've never heard the gospel tell us that God will judge people based upon the condition of their heart. If they are good people, God will save them even if they've never heard the gospel. While that certainly makes God look a lot better than what traditional Christianity teaches, this teaching totally contradicts the Bible which plainly states "there is NONE righteous, nay not one." Furthermore, it negates the cross completely. If people can get saved outside of the cross, then there was no reason for Christ's death. Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell. But according to Scripture, there are no "good people" from God's point of view. When someone called Jesus good, Jesus said to them, "Why do you call me good? There is none good except God."

All these extra-biblical ways to try to get more people out of the traditional Hell and into heaven is because the traditional view has so grossly distorted the gospel and the character of God, that well-meaning Christians have felt the need to invent non-scriptural means to empty the traditional Hell some. The traditional concept of salvation, when carefully scrutinized, surely puts almost all of mankind into Hell. How can grace have abounded much more than sin with such pathetic results.

Adam condemns all of mankind to death, Jesus manages to squeeze out a pathetic handful for Himself and then is compelled to send the rest of mankind to eternal tortures which would make Hitler's actions look like child's play.

Until the heart of God and the will of God become the foundational factors determining our understanding of Scripture, our "gospel" will be bad news--not good. "God is Love, but" is simply not the message the Holy Spirit is conveying to us in the Bible (1 John 4:10,14).

Many, and rightly so cannot accept a God who would eternally torture their loved ones. The early church did not teach eternal hell. However, once eternal hell entered the church, look what came with it, torture, mass killings, wars, crusades, ect...Hey, if God can do it, why not us..and
so they did, all in the name of God.

I'm just saying...regardless of where you stand on the issue....Take time
to study UR, the first gospel. With all the threads, opinions and remarks,
take time for yourself.

I think if man could put away this concept of a loving God only able to save a few, many would come to live happy lives in Christ.

 

[Rajni]

I accept that I am made in the image of the living God and God wants us to use human reasoning.

"'Come now, and let us reason together,' Says the LORD..." (Isaiah 1:18)

 

[Armistead]

Where on earth do you folks get this stuff ?
Christs sacrifice paid the price that animal sacrifice couldnt, poster.
Did you bother to READ ALL of the details in the NT ?

Jesus' death did what ANIMAL sacrifices could NOT DO.


And so if those words are too hard lets just remove them from the picture, supposedly.

Did you not even read the first post...as usual?

Yes, Christ put away blood sacrifice...duh...I was stating clearly that traditional christianity has created many other methods of salvation other that Christ to cover things that can't be explained with an ounce of justice.

As stated, most of mankind has never heard the gospel. The church can't accept that God would torture them for not hearing, so they say God will
judge them on works or how they viewed creation, ect..

The church says children get a pass out of hell and created "age of accountability." Stating children are not responsible for thier age to make
these decisions. When in fact, between ages 5-13, most childrens mental states have been formed for life.

The church has created numerous methods of salvation other than Christ, because even they can't accept a God that brutal.

However, they defy the most important doctrine they stand for...that Christ is the only way...no other...In trying to make God less brutal, they
create false plans of salvation other than Christ. If they accept Christ is the only way, then they must accept God will torture all that have not accepted Christ and the gospel, including those that haven't heard and even children. Even they can't accept that, so they rip the bible apart and create many plans of salvation.

After all they must do this. If not, then UR is true. If Christ is the only way, then it is only Christ and the cross that can save. That leaves only one option for those that haven't heard, children and even the masses born into and forced to accept false religions...that they go to hell or they are saved by Christ after death.

Or accepting one of the many false doctrines that there are many ways into heaven other than Christ....and sadly traditional christianity accepts this view.

 

[Armistead]

Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?

Sure, it's the theme of the bible.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

How marvelous and how wonderful this scripture is! This is unquestionably and without any doubt, the full good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bad news here whatsoever. Think about it! God will do what? God will reconcile ALL things on earth and ALL things in heaven through Jesus Christ having made PEACE through the blood of His cross.

Please note that the construct of the verses above are such that they leave absolutely no room for any doubt whatsoever that the word ALL can only mean ALL without any exception. Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, repeats the word ALL seven times before coming to the key verse, verse 20, where it says that God will reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ. If you believe verse 16, in that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven, all things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, then you have no option but to also believe verse 20, which says that Jesus Christ will reconcile to God the Father the same all things, which He created.

Traditional Christianity, because of its long established and entrenched belief in the doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell, is unable to accept at face value, the glorious truth contained in verse 20. This is why it has failed to understand God's Plan of Universal Reconciliation, which God is working out in Ages through Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the doctrine of endless torment in hell, then you do not believe in Colossians 1:15-20, and in your mind you have added to or taken away from the truth contained in these verses. Jesus Christ warns us not to add to or take away from His Word. (Revelation 22:18-19) The Bible is the Word of God and it never contradicts itself. The doctrine of hell and the truth of universal reconciliation through Jesus Christ cannot both be true at the same time. All contradictions in the Bible are totally due to either man's mistranslation or misinterpretation of the original relevant Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words.

Colossians 1:15-20

We have already discussed this scripture in detail above. Try replacing ‘some of all’ every time this scripture states ‘all’ and prove to yourself the fallacy of all those who say that the Bible usually means some of all when it says all.

2. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is a powerful scripture as it stands, because God's sovereign will to save ALL people and have them come to the knowledge of the truth cannot be frustrated by man's limited fallen freewill. This scripture becomes even stronger once we understand that the primary meaning of the Greek Word thelo is to be resolved or determined as given in Strong's Concordance (Strong's Number G2309).

Unfortunately, the NKJV and the NIV use the weaker meaning of thelo, which is to desire. God not only desires that all men are saved, but He has resolved and determined that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Only the false doctrine of hell prevents people from believing the obvious truth contained in this scripture. It is one hundred percent clear that the 'all' who die in Adam is exactly the same all that shall be made alive in Christ, which means each and every human being that has ever lived, including Adam, will be made alive in Christ, i.e. saved.

4. Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many (all) were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many (all) will be made righteous.

It is clear that ‘many’ in verse 19 refers to ‘all’ in verse 18. These verses once again confirm the truth that every person, without exception, will be justified and made righteous through Jesus Christ.

5. 1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Notice that it is a command from God to teach the truth that God is the Saviour of All People. How can God be the Saviour of All people and yet not save them ALL?

6. John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world".

Yes, Christ is indeed the Saviour of the world. How can He be the Saviour of the world and yet at the same time not save the whole world? Remember that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

7. Romans 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

This verse specifically refers to all Jews who die as unbelievers, but it also applies to all Gentiles who die as unbelievers. It is not God’s purpose to save all people before they die but only a few, His Elect. However, God’s mercy will prevail on all people and ultimately, in God’s time and His order, all people will be saved.

8. Acts 3:19-21, 25
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed’.

Note that God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began about the time when Jesus Christ will restore all things. This is the time when Jesus Christ will return to this earth to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant and to bless all the families of the earth, as confirmed in verse 25 above, which ultimately means the salvation of all people.

9. John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

This verse speaks about Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and His resurrection. Ultimately, in God’s time and His order, which extends beyond this age, all people will be drawn to Christ because of the finished work of the cross.

10. Revelation 21:1-6
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End..."

Yes, the time will come, at the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth, when Jesus Christ will bring to completion God's Plan of Universal Salvation, which He is working out in biblical Ages. This will be when there will be no more pain, no more crying, no more sorrow and no more death. This will be when God the Father Himself will come down to earth to dwell with ALL people and He will be ALL in ALL. If a tormenting hell existed then these verses would be false.

 

[Armistead]

Absolutely FALSE.
SHOW me where GOD explained to Adam WHY he was not to eat of the tree, poster !
Adam KNEW not to eat of the tree because God TOLD him not to do it...Adam didnt NEED to know why to KNOW that he had been told 'DONT DO IT or you die'...

We've already proven without doubt it was not Adams choice not to eat.
It was God's plan that he would, he ordained it, he put every piece in place so Adam and Eve would eat...It was God's plan. Stop blaming one or two people for the fall of man...it was God's doing.

If one man killed someone you loved, would you require that all humanity
be executed with him....Do you really think God would condemn all mankind to eternal torture for being born, because of the acts of two people...?

--oh, that's right, you do.....Darn old Satan messing up God's plan, If only
God could have stopped him.....

 

[Armistead]

You misunderstand my post. I'll insert your example and break down what I said.

The matter in question is obedience. Adam understood the command of God; that is, in literal terms, he heard the voice of God, and his brain translated it into meaning, which he then understood to apply to his potential, future actions. In this manner, he understood that God had spoken to him, and thus, he knew that God had spoken to him.

Your error is that you jump from Adam's knowledge that God told him not eat to the fruit into God telling Adam the reason for it. This does not come into play at all. You must make a separate line-up:

Adam could not understand the reason for the restriction of the fruit because Adam had no access to that truth, which is contained in the mind of God. Because he had no access, he could not know it. Thus, Adam had no way of knowing the truth of the reasoning behind God's commandment.

Thus, your example actually works out perfectly in my logical outline, as long as it is properly understood and employed.

Exactly...people can't accept that it's was God's plan for the fall, because they deem man had the same power and understanding of the truth that God had....so well put...to understand truth, you must first know truth.
and all human truth is suspect. That's why we accept a God that is always under control....and not mean old Satan having more power than God.

 

[Armistead]

Hardly.
Ill pass on ANYthing you deem as 'logical', thanks

God spoke DIRECTLY with Adam. Adam had DIRECT ACCESS to the Truth Giver, poster....your reasoning is entirely flawed.
*IF* it were required for ADAM to understand WHY instruction was given then God could have explained it to him...yet He didnt.

.

Let's see...Adam had direct access to the truth, even though he yet had
any knowledge of it.....

 

[HuntingMan]

"We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment (X) to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case (Y)"

It helps if you insert the understood "that" to show why this is two propositions:

1) The why of eternal torment
2) That God tells us of eternal torment

Again, the system deals with one proposition at a time. You can pick one or the other to plug it in. But the system does not attempt to answer for multiple propositions.

We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case

 

[HuntingMan]

Sure, it's the theme of the bible.

Im sorry but NONE of anything you posted there shows that man can come to repentance AFTER death.

 

[HuntingMan]

Let's see...Adam had direct access to the truth, even though he yet had
any knowledge of it.....

Adam KNEW what he was instructed not to do.
There is no getting around that fact.

 

[HuntingMan]

We've already proven without doubt it was not Adams choice not to eat.

It was God's plan that he would, he ordained it, he put every piece in place so Adam and Eve would eat...It was God's plan. Stop blaming one or two people for the fall of man...it was God's doing.

False.
All that has been PROVEN is that Adam chose to do what God instructed him NOT to do.

The God some of you worship is FAR worse than the One I do. At least MY God doesnt play little mind games with His creation like rats in a maze.

 

[HuntingMan]

Yes, the time will come, at the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth, when Jesus Christ will bring to completion God's Plan of Universal Salvation,

False.
Some will be with Him eternally and others will be in the lake of fire eternally.

http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=178

 

[Tissue]

Sure, it's the theme of the bible.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This is powerful stuff, Armistead, along with your commentary (which I neglected to quote only to keep my own post shorter).

I'm in an odd position. Logically, I'm UR. Theologically, I'm UR. Scripturally, I still have difficulty understanding other Biblical language (the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" bit) in a UR context.

Worst of all, as a ministerial student, I almost feel an obligation to, at the very least, leave this route unexplored. If nothing else, I have no plans to deliver a sermon on hell at any time in the future.

Fantastic commentary, Armistead.

 

[HuntingMan]

Resurrection

This study will be about the different aspects of final resurrection. We will be looking at different passages in God's word and seeing how they fit together to determine what we can expect at resurrection.


1.0
Here firstly is a wonderfully clear passage from 1 Corinthians 15 that lays out a very details picture about resurrection of the dead and how this resurrection by Christ of all men defeats 'death' (of these bodies).
'Death' is defeated by the RESURRECTION spoken of here..

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain and your faith also is vain! And we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we bore witness concerning God, that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise--if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have died. For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Then will be the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign till He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why are they also baptized for the dead? And why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, by my boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: "Evil associations corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:12-46 EMTV)

We see in this previous passage that resurrection is the reviving of our bodies from the corruptible into the incorruptible. We will be raised with spiritual bodies instead of these worn down shells that are prone to sickness and death.

2.0
Eternal outcomes.
And we see here where these resurrected souls go to....

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

 

[Tavita]

This is powerful stuff, Armistead, along with your commentary (which I neglected to quote only to keep my own post shorter).

I'm in an odd position. Logically, I'm UR. Theologically, I'm UR. Scripturally, I still have difficulty understanding other Biblical language (the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" bit) in a UR context.

Worst of all, as a ministerial student, I almost feel an obligation to, at the very least, leave this route unexplored. If nothing else, I have no plans to deliver a sermon on hell at any time in the future.

Fantastic commentary, Armistead.

Yes, I agree that Armistead does a wonderful job of presenting UR.

Can I also suggest in reference to weeping and gnashing of teeth that it seems to be talking about those in the Kingdom, as does being thrown into outer darkness, as if it's a place of being in the flesh. We all know that as Christians we still operate from the flesh, sometimes grossly. Jesus said the words He spoke were 'spirit and life', so I take them to mean we must look internally first in everything He says.

 

[Hentenza]

Hi All,

I asked a question back in post 6. Can someone shed some light?

Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?

This was my question when someone hinted at coming to know Christ after death. Anyone care to answer?

 

[HuntingMan]

I think someone somewhere in one of these threads posted a list of supposed verses that they were claiming what youre asking about.....course I read thru the list and not one of them actually SAID anything about it, so you know.....it seems verses that some can read things INTO that they DONT actually say seem to take precedence over those that DO say precisely what ET'ers are presenting that they do...