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With all the UR threads...

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Armistead

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Keep this in mind.

2000 years after the gospel was sent into the world, there are literally thousands of languages in the earth today which do NOT have even pieces of Scriptures let alone an entire Bible?

Do you understand that from Adam to the present day, probably well over 95 percent of the world never heard the one name under which men must be saved?

Are you also aware that most of the world who did hear the name hear it from a Catholic priest who told them that Jesus was a piece of cracker which they had to eat in order to be saved?

Are you also aware that most denominations of Christianity throughout the ages have added hundreds of other qualifications which potential converts also had to perform or rules one had to abide by in order to stay saved? The list is endless-it ranges from being a member of the "right" church or denomination to a certain form of water baptism to declaring a certain formula to having to speak in tongues, etc.

Then once a person is saved, there are literally hundreds of ways one can lose their salvation according to the thousands of different denominations which have formed around creeds, men, styles of buildings and worship, nationality, forms of church government, etc.

Let's face it, if we add all the things Jesus said about those who thought they knew Him but whom He would say to, "I never knew you,"(Matt. 7:23) and the many luke-warm who he would "vomit" out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16), surely there is scarcely a person who can really have absolute assurance they are truly saved.

Contrast this depressing situation with the nature and character of our heavenly Father and His Son. Do you see a terrible discrepancy? As a matter of fact, the discrepancy is so great that many trasitional Christians have had to create other gospels remedy this great gap.

Some Christians have invented the "age of accountability" to get the little ones out of the eternal flames. Surely they do it quite unscripturally. There isn't a shred of Scripture which supports such a cause noble as it may be. The Scriptures plainly state "there is NONE righteous, nay, not one." (Rom. 3:10-12) "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23) No-the teaching that children are innocent until a mythical age of accountability might partially remove the black eye he suffered from the church's "good news" which is terribly bad for almost ALL of mankind, but it's not in the Bible.

Some well-meaning Christians try to justify God for sending almost all of mankind to Hell even though they never heard the name of Christ by stating Romans 1:20 which makes it plain that all can see that there is a god just by looking at trees, stars, rocks, etc. Well, there were MANY heathens who believed in a god through nature. The nation of Israel was surrounded by nations who believed in gods of all kind because they saw something divine in nature, but did that save them? NO! They were called idolators! One does not find Jesus by looking at clouds and trees. One finds Jesus through the preaching of the Good News. No preaching, no salvation. Archaeology conclusively proves this fact. We only find Christian civilizations where the Gospel was preached. We do NOT find it in civilizations in which there were no Bibles or preachers of the Gospel.
Many will make up clauses, tell mythical stories of Christ coming at the brink of death, but these are simply more lies to try and make hell..not as bad or full.

They try to get some of those who never heard the gospel into heaven because they realize it isn't fair to send someone to Hell if they've never heard the gospel tell us that God will judge people based upon the condition of their heart. If they are good people, God will save them even if they've never heard the gospel. While that certainly makes God look a lot better than what traditional Christianity teaches, this teaching totally contradicts the Bible which plainly states "there is NONE righteous, nay not one." Furthermore, it negates the cross completely. If people can get saved outside of the cross, then there was no reason for Christ's death. Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell. But according to Scripture, there are no "good people" from God's point of view. When someone called Jesus good, Jesus said to them, "Why do you call me good? There is none good except God."

All these extra-biblical ways to try to get more people out of the traditional Hell and into heaven is because the traditional view has so grossly distorted the gospel and the character of God, that well-meaning Christians have felt the need to invent non-scriptural means to empty the traditional Hell some. The traditional concept of salvation, when carefully scrutinized, surely puts almost all of mankind into Hell. How can grace have abounded much more than sin with such pathetic results.

Adam condemns all of mankind to death, Jesus manages to squeeze out a pathetic handful for Himself and then is compelled to send the rest of mankind to eternal tortures which would make Hitler's actions look like child's play.

Until the heart of God and the will of God become the foundational factors determining our understanding of Scripture, our "gospel" will be bad news--not good. "God is Love, but" is simply not the message the Holy Spirit is conveying to us in the Bible (1 John 4:10,14).

Many, and rightly so cannot accept a God who would eternally torture their loved ones. The early church did not teach eternal hell. However, once eternal hell entered the church, look what came with it, torture, mass killings, wars, crusades, ect...Hey, if God can do it, why not us..and
so they did, all in the name of God.

I'm just saying...regardless of where you stand on the issue....Take time
to study UR, the first gospel. With all the threads, opinions and remarks,
take time for yourself.

I think if man could put away this concept of a loving God only able to save a few, many would come to live happy lives in Christ.
 
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Armistead

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LOL!!!! There are going to be a bunch of angry atheists when they realize that they were saved against their will.;)^_^^_^


Isn't grace glorious....God will make believers out of them when they come to the knowledge of Christ.
 
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HuntingMan

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If people can get saved outside of the cross, then there was no reason for Christ's death.
Where on earth do you folks get this stuff ?
Christs sacrifice paid the price that animal sacrifice couldnt, poster.
Did you bother to READ ALL of the details in the NT ?
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
(Heb 10:4 KJVA)
Jesus' death did what ANIMAL sacrifices could NOT DO.

Let's face it, if we add all the things Jesus said about those who thought they knew Him but whom He would say to, "I never knew you,"(Matt. 7:23) and the many luke-warm who he would "vomit" out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16), surely there is scarcely a person who can really have absolute assurance they are truly saved.
And so if those words are too hard lets just remove them from the picture, supposedly.
 
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Hentenza

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Isn't grace glorious....God will make believers out of them when they come to the knowledge of Christ.

Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?
 
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HuntingMan

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Isn't grace glorious....God will make believers out of them when they come to the knowledge of Christ.
And we BOTH know thats NOT what scripture shows will HAPPEN...

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "

Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)



And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)


And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)
 
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Tissue

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Sounds like nothing but human reasoning, Armistead

Precisely correct, HM. It is human reasoning, as that is all we are capable of. Our faculties are incapable of achieving absolute truth. =)
 
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Tissue

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If we can't understand something, we cannot know it. If we cannot know it, we cannot believe it. It might still be true in itself, but if we cannot know that it is true, we cannot fulfill that truth with our belief.

This is pure epistemology, and faith fits within it (read your John Calvin if you disagree; I've a feeling you're on very good terms with him).
 
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HuntingMan

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If we can't understand something, we cannot know it.
Absolutely FALSE.
SHOW me where GOD explained to Adam WHY he was not to eat of the tree, poster !
Adam KNEW not to eat of the tree because God TOLD him not to do it...Adam didnt NEED to know why to KNOW that he had been told 'DONT DO IT or you die'...
 
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Tissue

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Absolutely FALSE.
SHOW me where GOD explained to Adam WHY he was not to eat of the tree, poster !
Adam KNEW not to eat of the tree because God TOLD him not to do it...Adam didnt NEED to know why to KNOW that he had been told 'DONT DO IT or you die'...

You misunderstand my post. I'll insert your example and break down what I said.

The matter in question is obedience. Adam understood the command of God; that is, in literal terms, he heard the voice of God, and his brain translated it into meaning, which he then understood to apply to his potential, future actions. In this manner, he understood that God had spoken to him, and thus, he knew that God had spoken to him.

Your error is that you jump from Adam's knowledge that God told him not eat to the fruit into God telling Adam the reason for it. This does not come into play at all. You must make a separate line-up:

Adam could not understand the reason for the restriction of the fruit because Adam had no access to that truth, which is contained in the mind of God. Because he had no access, he could not know it. Thus, Adam had no way of knowing the truth of the reasoning behind God's commandment.

Thus, your example actually works out perfectly in my logical outline, as long as it is properly understood and employed.
 
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HuntingMan

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You misunderstand my post. I'll insert your example and break down what I said.

The matter in question is obedience. Adam understood the command of God; that is, in literal terms, he heard the voice of God, and his brain translated it into meaning, which he then understood to apply to his potential, future actions. In this manner, he understood that God had spoken to him, and thus, he knew that God had spoken to him.

Your error is that you jump from Adam's knowledge that God told him not eat to the fruit into God telling Adam the reason for it. This does not come into play at all. You must make a separate line-up:

Adam could not understand the reason for the restriction of the fruit because Adam had no access to that truth, which is contained in the mind of God. Because he had no access, he could not know it. Thus, Adam had no way of knowing the truth of the reasoning behind God's commandment.

Thus, your example actually works out perfectly in my logical outline, as long as it is properly understood and employed.
Oh give me a break.
God spoke DIRECTLY with Adam. Adam had DIRECT ACCESS to the Truth Giver, poster....your reasoning is entirely flawed.
*IF* it were required for ADAM to understand WHY instruction was given then God could have explained it to him...yet He didnt
.


'
 
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Tissue

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It is not flawed. You are making jumps in logic.

My system is to test the verifiability of a single proposition. I have made no system, nor any claim, for multiple propositions, or the connection thereof. Your examples consistently do not meet the criteria for the logic I displayed.

You do not understand my post. This does not imply that my logic is flawed.

Your argument would only stand if you mean to imply that Adam's direct access to the Truth Giver allowed him the knowledge of the reasoning of God on the restriction of the apple, which you have already denied. HM, I am using your language entirely. If you'd like, I could draw up a formal diagram of the logic presented. Even you cannot twist mathematics and argue with it.
 
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HuntingMan

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It is not flawed. You are making jumps in logic.
Hardly.
My system is to test the verifiability of a single proposition. I have made no system, nor any claim, for multiple propositions, or the connection thereof. Your examples consistently do not meet the criteria for the logic I displayed.

You do not understand my post. This does not imply that my logic is flawed.

Your argument would only stand if you mean to imply that Adam's direct access to the Truth Giver allowed him the knowledge of the reasoning of God on the restriction of the apple, which you have already denied. HM, I am using your language entirely. If you'd like, I could draw up a formal diagram of the logic presented. Even you cannot twist mathematics and argue with it.
Ill pass on ANYthing you deem as 'logical', thanks ;)

God spoke DIRECTLY with Adam. Adam had DIRECT ACCESS to the Truth Giver, poster....your reasoning is entirely flawed.
*IF* it were required for ADAM to understand WHY instruction was given then God could have explained it to him...yet He didnt.

.
 
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Tissue

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I've already explained this to you. I have just tested the reasoning with three other guys in my dorm (one an English major, one an Outdoor Recreation major, and one a Computer Science major) who all clearly understood my argument, so it is not an issue with the language of the material, but rather, with yourself.

You are using multiple propositions. It is not a requirement for Adam to know the "Why" of the argument to believe that God argued it, only that God did argue it.

If one cannot understand X, then one cannot know X. If one cannot know X, then one cannot believe it. Things can still be true whether or not we believe them.

This only works with a single proposition: X. Your statement, that Adam didn't need to know the reasoning (Y) in order to understand the reasoning (X) depicts two propositions.

I don't need to know why my mother tells me as a tot not to run in front of cars to know that she tells me not to do it, and that I'll have a whipping if I do.
 
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HuntingMan

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I've already explained this to you.
you did give me YOUR fallacious viewpoint, yes.


I have just tested the reasoning with three other guys in my dorm (one an English major, one an Outdoor Recreation major, and one a Computer Science major) who all clearly understood my argument, so it is not an issue with the language of the material, but rather, with yourself.
:D
And ?
What on earth do *I* care who you tested or what the topic was ?

I don't need to know why my mother tells me as a tot not to run in front of cars to know that she tells me not to do it, and that I'll have a whipping if I do.
and THERE you go...
You DONT have to understand "WHY" the instruction is given to UNDERSTAND what is being instructed !

We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case
 
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Tissue

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and THERE you go...
You DONT have to understand "WHY" the instruction is given to UNDERSTAND what is being instructed !

Exactly. I never argued that you did. My system never argued that you did. It is quite clear that there is nothing of that sort in the logic I expressed, yet you still read into it.

Might I suggest you re-read what I wrote? And, if you are still uncertain as to what it says, perhaps take it to someone a little more educated than yourself and ask them to explain it? A pastor, perhaps?
 
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