-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Witchcraft: Control and Christianity
- Thread starter imperfectchristian
- Start date
This is my first post, but I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered what I have. I currently go to a church where I've occasionally noticed that their way of praying for non-Christians and also anyone who is not "where they should be" with God is to pray that bad things would happen to them so that they would turn to God. I even mentioned to one of the ladies in the church that I wasn't sure I could stay at a church with people that had a tendency to pray this way. She said she never noticed that that was the case. But a few weeks later during prayer meeting she was praying for a relative of hers and praying that they would be miserable until they accepted the Lord. I know that no matter what church I go to I would probably find something going on that I disagreed with. But I'm wondering if this is a bad situation, or if I'm making a big deal out of nothing.
Upvote
0
- Dec 20, 2009
- 30,471
- 8,647
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian Seeker
- Marital Status
- Married
Welcome to CF cherie amour
that sounds very familliar . do you believe God would do that?
Upvote
0
In reply to Michael Collum, no I don't think this is God's way of doing things. I'm a Word person at heart, and I believe words are important. As a former completely sold out but now slightly disallusioned Charismatic I realize that no one (at least nobody I know) has really arrived at the fulness and stature of Christ yet. (Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ") So sometimes it's just frustrating to put up with all the imperfection until that time comes. But that's why I like CF, because it is a place to work out our own salvation alongside others who are trying to do the same.
Upvote
0
KingZzub
Blessed to Be A Blessing
- Dec 23, 2005
- 14,754
- 893
- 49
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- UK-Conservative
This is a bad situation.
Praying for someone should be praying for them the way Paul prayed for people: open the eyes of their heart, let them see the truth. Jesus said to pray that labourers would go into the harvest field.
So if someone I know is lost I pray:
"Lord, thank you for Billy. Thank you that you love Him. That Jesus died for Him. That you want Him in your kingdom more than I do. Lord, I ask now that their eyes are open to your Word and your message. Lord, send labourers to Billy. Send people to him with the Word of God who present it to him in a way that makes him think and persuades him to place his faith in you."
Think about it - if I prayed "Lord, make Billy sad till he becomes a Christian" I am actually saying let Billy become a Christian to make himself happy. We all know that being a Christian is not like smoking pot - it isn't some sort of hazy, happy high. There are tough situations to deal with, there is life to deal with. If Billy comes a Christian to stop being miserable, first miserable day he has as a Christian he will quit. Seed on rocky ground, according to Mark 4.
You want Billy to come to Christ because of the Word of God and because he is convinced it is true. That should shape your prayers, rather than hoping someone is miserable because they rejected you and disagreed with you and turning your carnal irritation with someone into a so-called prayer.
Of course there was an incident in the Bible where someone was turned over to satan for the destruction of his flesh, but that was done by Paul - a church leader - and the result was that the man repented and returned to the church and stopped living with his step mother! There are times where as a church you do this, but I believe this action is about not praying and not believing God for people. rather than actively calling on satan to do something for us. I could go into this in great detail, but I honestly think that if we turned most Christians who left our churches over to satan they would not feel any different because we do not pray for them in faith and love regularly anyway.
Hope this helps,
Benjamin
Upvote
0
When I first posted on this thread, I only brought up something that was vaguely disturbing me, but now I think I've opened up a can of worms, at least for myself.
Last night at church, our pastor told of a story of sometime earlier in the 20th century, about a wife who would go to church and her husband would beat her when she got home. One night after being beaten she went to her bedroom to kneel and pray. The husband came to the door and angrily threatened her again. Her response to him was that she wasn't worried, because she was praying that he would either become a christian or die. That night in bed he started sobbing as conviction took over, and the next Sunday he was in church and became a radically changed christian. Also, it seems to me that I've heard stories of Jessee Duplantis's mother radically praying for him that God would get a hold of him and not let him go, which made him miserable until he surrendered to God.
This morning when I woke up, I was thinking about the 2 witnesses in Revelation. They call down fire from heaven and cause all kinds of trouble on the earth.
I guess what I'm wondering is where does Christianity end and what some people would perceive as witchcraft begin. True Christians have been considered witches in times past, and also Jesus was accused of being of the devil.
I doubt if anyone can answer this question at this point except God. My thinking is that currently the body of Christ is not at a place where we have full understanding of this subject. (At least I don't)
I pray exactly like Kingzzub mentioned, but I can't say that I've had very satisfying results (compared to the woman above and Jessee Duplantis's mom).
Last night at church, our pastor told of a story of sometime earlier in the 20th century, about a wife who would go to church and her husband would beat her when she got home. One night after being beaten she went to her bedroom to kneel and pray. The husband came to the door and angrily threatened her again. Her response to him was that she wasn't worried, because she was praying that he would either become a christian or die. That night in bed he started sobbing as conviction took over, and the next Sunday he was in church and became a radically changed christian. Also, it seems to me that I've heard stories of Jessee Duplantis's mother radically praying for him that God would get a hold of him and not let him go, which made him miserable until he surrendered to God.
This morning when I woke up, I was thinking about the 2 witnesses in Revelation. They call down fire from heaven and cause all kinds of trouble on the earth.
I guess what I'm wondering is where does Christianity end and what some people would perceive as witchcraft begin. True Christians have been considered witches in times past, and also Jesus was accused of being of the devil.
I doubt if anyone can answer this question at this point except God. My thinking is that currently the body of Christ is not at a place where we have full understanding of this subject. (At least I don't)
I pray exactly like Kingzzub mentioned, but I can't say that I've had very satisfying results (compared to the woman above and Jessee Duplantis's mom).
Upvote
0
Tamara224
Well-Known Member
First... don't believe every story you hear. It's unfortunately true that there are a lot of urban legends that get told as gospel truth from pulpits everywhere.
Second... Scripture tells us that whatever we ask, if we ask according to God's will, we will get it. The key part of that is whether it's God's will.
If you don't know what God's will is... then ask Him. Or simply ask that His will be done.
Scripture also tells us: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Romans 8:26)
We don't know enough about anyone's heart or what is going on inside anyone's head to be able to dictate the perfect circumstances that will bring a person to Christ. Our job is to either plant or water (by preaching the Word, and by demonstrating love). It is God's job to cause the seed to sprout and grow. (See 1 Corinthians 3:6-9)
Upvote
0
KingZzub
Blessed to Be A Blessing
- Dec 23, 2005
- 14,754
- 893
- 49
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- UK-Conservative
Keep standing in faith.
Tamara is right about the urban legends for each time a woman prays for her husband and he is saved there and then, there are women who are in domestic violence situations. They need to get out of those situations and not expect a miracle conversion for someone who has free will.
But if we consistently hold someone up in faith and believe that they will see the truth and that people will come to them who know the truth and persuade them, eventually they will come to faith.
Tamara is right about the urban legends for each time a woman prays for her husband and he is saved there and then, there are women who are in domestic violence situations. They need to get out of those situations and not expect a miracle conversion for someone who has free will.
But if we consistently hold someone up in faith and believe that they will see the truth and that people will come to them who know the truth and persuade them, eventually they will come to faith.
Upvote
0
- Jun 13, 2002
- 21,696
- 1,466
- 71
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Charismatic
- Marital Status
- Single
I think we need to step back and look at how Jesus did it. He debated but He did not coerce. He proved His point and moved on. I believe He taught his disciples the same. He taught the ways of the Father in His everyday walk and talk. He was daily at the synagogue and He used the time of daily study to teach. As He walked He saw people who needed healing and He healed them. His disciples did the same thing.
I think most today only know what they've been told scripture says about such and such and don't really know the scripture personally for themselves....whether it be old or new. I know that I personally got tired of all the hype and the one man show, and the insinuations that if one was not there every time the door was open or they were suffering from some illness that their faith was not strong enough and they just did not love God enough.
Even when Jesus was calling His disciples all He said was, "follow me and I will make you fishers of men". When one of those went to tell his brother (off the top of my head I don't remember who), the brother said, "does anything good come out of Nazareth?" The simple reply was "come see for yourself". How simple.
Yes, I think it's right to use all the things we have available to us today. Yet, the gospel is so distorted from what Jesus and all the disciples and apostles spoke. I think most of what many call gospel isn't at all.
Upvote
0
- Jun 13, 2002
- 21,696
- 1,466
- 71
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Charismatic
- Marital Status
- Single
Scripture says it's "His kindness that leads us to repentance" (Rom 2:4)
2 Corinthians 7:8-11 says,
For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while-- I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.
I think too that even though we as humans do things wrongly at times, God knows our heart and He is willing to work despite our ignorance. That of course does not mean that we should remain ignorant and continue to do and teach others to do things in an ignorant manner. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while-- I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.
I think the stories related worked for their situation but they are not necessarily a template for others to follow. I do not believe we should pray for God to make people miserable but for Him to open their eyes...in doing so they quite likely will experience some uncomfortableness and/or misery.
Upvote
0
Tobias
Relationship over Religion
1 Samuel 15:22-24 (New King James Version)
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
This is the passage where we get the idea that witchcraft and rebellion go hand in hand. When people start talking about witchcraft in the Church, most of the time they are simply talking about this association. Rebellion, subversion, the "Spirit of Jezebel", and etc. all have been lumped under the label of "witchcraft", creating some confusion to those who haven't heard these teachings.
Cherie-amour has described something very close to witchcraft in the church, in people praying destruction upon unbelievers. I don't think this is what Jesus meant when He said, "Pray for those who despitefully use you"!! Our attitude must be for forgiveness and God's blessings in prayer, otherwise we could be speaking curses over them; justifying our attitude by saying "God's Will will be done in the end."
Coercing people to do "God's Will" would be the opposite end of the spectrum, IMO. More like Pharisee-ism than witchcraft. If we make laws to force people to do "godly" actions, set up social taboos and then shun people and insult them for not doing things "God's way", or re-write history and teach people lies in an effort to get them to conform. In each of these cases, "the end justifies the means" has been used to excuse all sorts of things.
True relationship with God depends upon our freedom to willfully choose Him. I am constantly being given the choice to either continue on with Him, or to entertain myself in other ways.
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
This is the passage where we get the idea that witchcraft and rebellion go hand in hand. When people start talking about witchcraft in the Church, most of the time they are simply talking about this association. Rebellion, subversion, the "Spirit of Jezebel", and etc. all have been lumped under the label of "witchcraft", creating some confusion to those who haven't heard these teachings.
Cherie-amour has described something very close to witchcraft in the church, in people praying destruction upon unbelievers. I don't think this is what Jesus meant when He said, "Pray for those who despitefully use you"!! Our attitude must be for forgiveness and God's blessings in prayer, otherwise we could be speaking curses over them; justifying our attitude by saying "God's Will will be done in the end."
Coercing people to do "God's Will" would be the opposite end of the spectrum, IMO. More like Pharisee-ism than witchcraft. If we make laws to force people to do "godly" actions, set up social taboos and then shun people and insult them for not doing things "God's way", or re-write history and teach people lies in an effort to get them to conform. In each of these cases, "the end justifies the means" has been used to excuse all sorts of things.
True relationship with God depends upon our freedom to willfully choose Him. I am constantly being given the choice to either continue on with Him, or to entertain myself in other ways.
Upvote
0
Control can be wrong because it is unloving. Not all control is unloving though. We need to be looking out for one another to keep one another out of sin. Leaders need to do that, too. Some people might label that kind of legitimate as 'controlling', 'the control spirit,' 'witchcraft' or whatever unverifiable pop Charismatic label that is going around.
I can't find anything in the Bible that indicates that manipulation=witchcraft or that control=witchcraft. There is no logical reason to draw this deduction. Witches seek to control, but so do lion tamers. That doesn't make lion tamers witches. If witches seek to control, that doesn't mean all people who are trying to control others are into witchcraft.
The real issue here is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. A lot of 'control' doesn't follow this law.
Taking II Peter 2 and Jude together, the men spoken of here were false teachers, teaching others to sin. Their eyes are full of adultery. They love money. The speak really big, but empty words. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries (spiritual beings, the example in one passage is Satan.) This may describe some preachers today. But the sin in the passage is not just control or manipulation.
(Personal prayer: God help me to live and share your message of love that you died to give to each one of us so we could all freely choose to accept it.)[/quote]
Upvote
0
lismore
Maranatha
- Oct 28, 2004
- 20,989
- 4,640
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
What about believers who pray destruction upon believers?
I was in an AOG church from 1999 to Christmas 2007. 2001 new pastor came.....
My final meeting there I went in late, maybe 5 minutes into the service. There was no worship time that day. The pastor was up front praying, something like this:
'Thankyou Lord that when those sanballats in South Africa opposed me you struck them and they burned to death in a car crash the very next day. Thankyou Lord that you will also smite those who oppose me here'.
After the service I spoke to another member, a lady who used to babysit me years ago. She was very sad and said she would never attend another pentecostal church again. Neither of us were involved in the disagreements in the church, but were broken hearted by what we heard.
The strange thing was that those who opposed the pastor were at the meeting, they had to sit and listen to that prayer and the following ranting sermon, apart from one or two who got up and left, slamming the door.
That was my last meeting there! I now use extreme care when visiting a p/c meeting.
God Bless You
Upvote
0
gratefulgrace
Contributor
- Jul 26, 2006
- 13,109
- 3,210
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
What about believers who pray destruction upon believers?
I was in an AOG church from 1999 to Christmas 2007. 2001 new pastor came.....
My final meeting there I went in late, maybe 5 minutes into the service. There was no worship time that day. The pastor was up front praying, something like this:
'Thankyou Lord that when those sanballats in South Africa opposed me you struck them and they burned to death in a car crash the very next day. Thankyou Lord that you will also smite those who oppose me here'.
After the service I spoke to another member, a lady who used to babysit me years ago. She was very sad and said she would never attend another pentecostal church again. Neither of us were involved in the disagreements in the church, but were broken hearted by what we heard.
The strange thing was that those who opposed the pastor were at the meeting, they had to sit and listen to that prayer and the following ranting sermon, apart from one or two who got up and left, slamming the door.
That was my last meeting there! I now use extreme care when visiting a p/c meeting.
God Bless You
Good to get out of there but not all PC churches are that way. Sounds like this guy had serious issues and needed some oversight and correction. I think this is what it means in part by taking the Lords name in vain.
Upvote
0
KingZzub
Blessed to Be A Blessing
- Dec 23, 2005
- 14,754
- 893
- 49
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- UK-Conservative
Lis,
I was talking to a great friend and someone I consider a spiritual father and a genuine prophet. We both agreed that Dundee ia probably the worst place to be a charismatic Christian in the UK.
I was talking to a great friend and someone I consider a spiritual father and a genuine prophet. We both agreed that Dundee ia probably the worst place to be a charismatic Christian in the UK.
Upvote
0
lismore
Maranatha
- Oct 28, 2004
- 20,989
- 4,640
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Hi Ben
Thanks for sharing that with me........its encouraging because I thought it was me
. Please tell your friend that his word was spot on. I was praying right now about whether to move location........
Upvote
0
lismore
Maranatha
- Oct 28, 2004
- 20,989
- 4,640
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I went to visit a church last week, Church of Scotland.
At the end the minister told everyone to walk round and introduce themselves to someone new.
An older lady in a big flowery hat came up to me and said 'I'm Gladys Dunn'.
I replied 'I'm glad its done too!'.
At the end the minister told everyone to walk round and introduce themselves to someone new.
An older lady in a big flowery hat came up to me and said 'I'm Gladys Dunn'.
I replied 'I'm glad its done too!'.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
