Wish to Learn

[KENTA]

Well I am willing to give this religion fair shake and it's beliefs considerable thought as I do with everything, but if it requires me to believe the creation story presented in it and the miracles performed by Jesus as fact, I am not quite sure I can do it.

Also, is the devil too literal or figurative?

 

[ebia]

Well I am willing to give this religion fair shake and it's beliefs considerable thought as I do with everything, but if it requires me to believe the creation story presented in it and the miracles performed by Jesus as fact, I am not quite sure I can do it.

In key 'miracle' is the resurrection. It is the event that everything else hinges upon - without it the rest is meaningless waffle really. But the whole point of it is that it is an exceptional event - an event from the end of time happening in the middle of time. The New Testament authors knew as well as we do that resurrection cannot happen - yet they wrote the resurrection accounts had happened because they had witnessed it (or because they were recording the accounts of those who had).

'Miracles' in the New Testament aren't magic tricks played on the gullible, or purely symbolic metaphors (though may are metaphors as well), but signs of God's future, perfect, New Creation breaking forth in the present. The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the ultimate example of that. The central statement of Christianity is "Jesus Christ was crucified according to the scriptures, rose from the dead according to the scriptures, and therefore New Creation has begun and Jesus is its Lord", and therfore this, that and the other. Take away the "rose from the dead" bit and all the "therefores" collapse.

The resurrection is key - and there are good historical reasons for thinking that it could not have been invented - or if it had been it wouldn't look like what we have.

Having said that, there are thoughtful, sincere, Christians who do not believe the resurrection happened as a physical event. If you are interested in following that up I would highly recommend "The Meaning of Jesus" by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright. Marcus takes the metaphorical line, Tom Wright the traditional line. (Those two have produced some excellent examples of how Christians can have respectful discussion of key issues of disagreement and the book is an excellent read on that basis as well.)

Also, is the devil too literal or figurative?

You'll get a variety of views on that one. Satan takes a variety of roles in scriptual narrative.

 

[KENTA]

I..see.. Well thank you for the responses guys but, I do not believe this is for me. Thank you much though. I shall finish the book for useful philosophies however. ^-^

 

[Criada]

The Christian religion can seem very confusing.. and in parts pretty unlikely.
Can I ask you to do something, though, before you give up on it.
Before you read the Bible, ask God to show you what it means, to convince you of its truth, if it is true.
Because while there are a great many intellectual arguments for and against it, ultimately it is a matter of faith. And faith, the Bible says, is a gift of God. We won't ever understand it all, because He is God and we are human. Bt if we seek Him, we will find Him.

So try praying. something very simple "God, if this is true, please reveal it to me; if You are real, please give me faith to believe."

You may be surprised...

 

[LouTheWicked]

Smart for a 14-year-old, isn't he?

 

[KarateCowboy]

Well I am willing to give this religion fair shake and it's beliefs considerable thought as I do with everything, but if it requires me to believe the creation story presented in it and the miracles performed by Jesus as fact, I am not quite sure I can do it.

Also, is the devil too literal or figurative?

Most religions have difficult and seemingly unlogical facets to them.

For example: Buddhism. In Buddhism one of the most important teachings is that suffering is caused by desire, and to get rid of suffering you must stop having wants or desires. But in order to stop having desires you must first desire to stop having desires. This is what is called self-defeating logic. It is impossible to stop having desires because of what I just explained. This is an obvious thing and it is not a minor teaching of Buddhism that can be dismissed. It is the core, fundamental teaching of Buddhism. However, Buddhist people still teach it and millions of Japanese embrace what to an outsider is absurdity. So we can see that it is most likely impossible to contemplate God without coming across some thing that is beyond our comprehension and requires faith.

 

[salida]

The beginning? God created everything for his pleasure and it glorifys Him. It also gives man a hint that there is a God (Gods foot prints). Yes, christianity is separate. Why? Its also is the only religion that has hundreds of detailed prophesies in the Bible that have come true and more to be fulfilled. I don't want to give you too much information as it can be overwhelming - but some information to start. Email me anytime about this.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.



Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

Also, Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (evidence about Bible that would stand up in court). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). There are many more books also.

 

[visionary]

The bible is a true story...

It starts at the beginning with God.

God created...

An angel named Lucifer wanted to add to the picture. Problem... God does things perfectly, there is nothing to add. Problem lies in the heart of Lucifer. God knew, it was iniquity. Heaven had not known or understood what that was. Lucifer asked if he could put a tree in the garden. It was a tree of choice. That the knowledge we would have access to would have both the good and the evil of it. God was just giving us the good knowledge and not the evil. He warned us not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Lucifer tempted with the thought we were missing something if we didn't eat of it. We bit.

Now we get both good and bad knowledge and we see it evident all around us. God had a plan to redeem those of us caught in the snares of evil. God's laws declare that if broken the penalty is death. God would sacrifice His body for our mistakes. He would them have the right to redeem us.

Here it is 6000 years later and we are seeing the beginnings of the end of earth's history. We are at the point where... the evironment can not tolerate any more upset and it about to collapse, the political world is corrupt and can not trust themselves or others, the financial world is so greedy that they will collapse the infrastructure in the persuit of power, and the religious world is right in the middle of it trading truth for lies all in the hopes of being a part of the emerging one world. Our planet is not isolated by time or space as it once was. What happens here affects there... We are heading towards self-destruction and gaining speed. We are lying to ourselves that it is for the good, and will be better. When everything starts tumbling down, it will go completely down around the world and there will desolation throughout the world by the time it is finished.

God knew all this and promised to rescue those of us who are looking up for His return and are prepared to live with Him forever.

When God said NO... We now know with full knowledge both good and evil that He is right and will always obey Him from that day forward.

Detail are in scripture... Search them, seek God... Know Him. He is real and He is more than willing to meet with you. Learn of Him so that you know what to expect. God answers prayers. Without Him, nothing on this earth makes sense. With Him it all does.

 

[KENTA]

I am sorry, your book and religion is quite interesting, but I do not believe it is for me. I apologize, I would explain why but we are raised over here to have soft mouths. ^-^

 

[KarateCowboy]

I am sorry, your book and religion is quite interesting, but I do not believe it is for me. I apologize, I would explain why but we are raised over here to have soft mouths. ^-^

Speak freely. Tell me your thoughts. Things are either true or false. It is the perfect mind for the Devil that thinks of things as 'fashionable', or 'modern', 'prudent', or 'not for me'. Either what we speak is true or false.

 

[visionary]

Your best approach to this question regarding our faith, is to pray and ask our God of Abraham, Isaiac and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, The Prince of Peace, Our Savior and Redeemer, Yeshua to reveal Himself to you. Search the scriptures, first to learn of Him and His Kingdom, always praying for His guidance in answering your questions. Seek Him, to have a personal experience, like Moses on Mount Sinai, like the Apostles in the Upper Room, like Paul on the way to Damascus. Read Revelation 3:20 where you can put your finger on that verse and tell God that He promise to come and visit with you. THEN>>>>> Prepare yourself, repent of all sins that come to your mind, asking God to open up your Book of Life and reveal to you even secret sins, sins that you didn't know are sins, so that you can understand and repent of them too. You can not be in the presence of a Holy God, with your sins uncovered. You need the blood of forgiveness, that Yeshua shed for you, blood covering those sins in your Book of Life. Then when the Lord has cleaned your slate, He will lay His robe of Righteousness on your shoulders so that you may be able to be in His Presence. It is an awesome experience, worth every clinging, clutching, favorite sin that you have to give up.

 

[KENTA]

Speak freely. Tell me your thoughts. Things are either true or false. It is the perfect mind for the Devil that thinks of things as 'fashionable', or 'modern', 'prudent', or 'not for me'. Either what we speak is true or false.

Well I was trying to be respectful as it my come of as rude to say, 'I believe your religion is false". I do not understand how one can accept this story when we have evolution and the other sciences.

 

[ebia]

Well I was trying to be respectful as it my come of as rude to say, 'I believe your religion is false". I do not understand how one can accept this story when we have evolution and the other sciences.

As I think I said before, many (most?) Christians do not regard the early chapters of Genesis as literally precise, and therefore there is no contradiction between Christianity and evolution/the sciences.

 

[visionary]

I believe God is powerful enough and also believe that the bible is an accurate story of creation. He spoke and it came to pass, He spoke and it was done. He is God, it is no problem to have it all come into existence at His Word. I think it is a greater leap of faith to believe that we come from slime.

 

[KENTA]

I believe God is powerful enough and also believe that the bible is an accurate story of creation. He spoke and it came to pass, He spoke and it was done. He is God, it is no problem to have it all come into existence at His Word. I think it is a greater leap of faith to believe that we come from slime.

Slime? What? Do, they not teach the history of the world and evolution and other important things in your country? The image of Americans we have over here is smart and rendy, but I was unaware they believe we came from slime or in a garden with only two people.

 

[TimRout]

Slime? What? Do, they not teach the history of the world and evolution and other important things in your country? The image of Americans we have over here is smart and rendy, but I was unaware they believe we came from slime or in a garden with only two people.

I could be mistaken, but I believe her use of "slime" is a colloquial reference to the primordial soup. While evolution and life-origins are not inexorably attached, most secular evolutionists hold to spontanious generation. This poses a significant problem for Christians, since we believe life came from God.

 

[ebia]

Slime? What? Do, they not teach the history of the world and evolution and other important things in your country? The image of Americans we have over here is smart and rendy, but I was unaware they believe we came from slime or in a garden with only two people

American education is a topic best kept for another time and place.

Some Christians believe that if science can explain something as a natural process then that denies God's involvement, but the two are not mutually exclusive. The historic Judeo/Christian view of God is that God is present and active as much in the mundane as the extraordinary, as much in the explicable as the inexplicable. The "God of the gaps" way of looking at God is based on the modernist lie that if science can explain something God wasn't involved. That naturalistic explanation is exclusively true to the exclusion of theological explanation. Why any Christian would buy into this line is beyond me - the people who wrote the bible knew that natural explanation didn't preclude theological explanation.

Life came from God, but through natural processes. Like just about everything else.

 

[zeke37]

Hello.

My name is 小林英樹 or Hideki Koboyashi in English. I am 14 years old and live in Kobe of the Hyogo perfecture in Japan. My mother was originally American before moving here so English is spoken in our house between me and my mother on occasion. I also read many English books so luckily I have a good vocabulary, comes in handy when prowling English websites. Anyway, I seem to be drifting from my topic.

In Japan, religions are all kind of mixed and mashed. For example, my father is a Buddhist and a Taoist and we attend many festivals but celebrate Christmas and stuff. Here, all religions are true. Or the ideas behind them, most Japanese would identify themselves as non-religious. However I learned something new today, not all religions are connected, or something along that line. There was some missionaries today by my school talking about Jesus. It was kind of hard for me to fathom Jesus as separate from other religions but now I have been doing research and I see it is a separate religion. I was taught this in school of course but like I said, here religions all carry the same merit of being possible or together.

Anyway, the missionaries gave me a bible and some tracts and other things to read about Jesus and Christianity. However, this book seems to be too intelligent for me.

Why is the beginning as it is? I am currently reading the story of the creation of the Earth, which is pretty interesting, but what does it mean? Unlike our stories, I am having a hard time deciphering any symbols and the like. Care to help also explain your religion please.

HI there...i'd love to help...

but realize that there are as many different beliefs in CHRISTIANITY as there are Christians...

there are two main camps..

one that believes and follow the traditions of early church leaders...divided into denominations which each have their beliefs and understandings...

and one that believes in reading the bible and deciding for yourself what is truth...



as for creation, there is a much bigger picture that is revealed the more you read the whole entire Bible..it is not possible to grasp the entire meaning without an overall knowledge of the whole...

Kinda late here, so sorry if this is short.

I will do as you say and start with that book. I am not liking the bibles they sent us. The Japanese in them is horrible so I am looking into an English one, supposebl the KJV is good. Find it odd there are different versions.

too many versions, but the KJV is good....it is still not like the manuscripts, which are perfect and without contradictions.

so the more serious student of the bible will utilize a concordance to find out the original Hebrew or Greek word that was used, and determine it's meaning instead of relying strictly on the given English translation.

You should find out if there is a Strong's Concordance that is translated into Japanese.

Also, is this creation story at the beginning meant to be..literal? I was thinking it was some kind of poetic story like most of the Asian religions because as a factual creation story..I think I would have a hard time believing this.

well...Gen1:1...God created the heavens and the earth....the whole universe...it really does not say when that happened, only that it did.

and in Gen1:2, the world was without form and void, which more properly translates into the world became a ruin....

there was something here before Gen1:2...


many Christians believe that 1000 years to mankind, is as a single day to God....

so the setting up of this present age may have occurred over 1000's of years...

Well I am chugging along into this book but from what I understand now, this religion is not a philosophy like our religions in Asian but a literal historical thing that happened? Such as the walking on water and the like?

it is a history book which has literal examples with spiritual meanings....much of the prophesy in the bible is symbolic and difficult to grasp without an overall general knowledge...

for example, there are 2 trees in the middle of the Garden of God...one is the Tree of Life, which we learn is representative of Christ....

and the other is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, representing the devil...satan. Also the serpent is another representation of Satan, and we can see these same descriptions used later...so it is imperative that we know what these mean.

there is no quick fix to understanding the bible...and one must ask God for help, so that means believing in Him to do so...

and Genesis is one of the most symbolic parts of the bible.

Also.. I am really confused by the Angels and Jesus. According to the first book, there was only 1 god and now there seems to be lots of them.

well, actually the studied Christian realizes that Jesus was the express flesh image of God....called the Son of God, but the disciples referred to Him as God.

we are the express flesh image of the children of God, the angels...as told on the 6th day of creation.


there is not three Gods, just One that is able to be the Father of all, the Earthly born Christ and the Holy Spirit at the same time. Our God always had this ability, but it is not as revealed as it is int he New Testament.

From what I am reading, the angels are immortal, can fly and live in the spiritual realm. We in Japan would call those Gods. Is the only difference between them the degree of power?

The angels in the bible are either working for God or working for Satan. The ones working for Satan are referred to as the fallen angels or the sons of God.

either way, none can fly (with wings) as supposed...at least none mentioned in the bible.

the angels are not immortal exactly...they are incorruptible(they do not die or get sick or get hurt or get old) but God is still in control and can choose to end their existence if He chooses to...the fallen angels (Satan being their leader) are already sentenced to that fate...God is using them (now and future) to find out who is who....in their hearts...

we as mankind can choose Christ as the way to get into God's good graces, and become immortal....all who choose the opposite way, which is Satan's multitude of ways, is destroyed with those fallen angels

Well, I am having doubts about it. I am not far how far I will look into this.

I hope you continue to....I feel that a personal relationship with The One God is what everyone needs..

This is still very confusing to me. They are still Gods to me. For example, the Japanese god 伊弉諾 is the Shinto god of creation..however he always created other lesser Gods such as 天 and and 月読の命 but by definition, they are still Gods.

the fallen angels came to earth and had children with the descendants of Adam and Eve. That was the reason for the flood.

many Christian scholars believe that the offspring called giants sometimes in the bible and other names are actually the basis for the gods of mythology. this may tie into your culture as well...because the children were supernatural. It is possible then that they are the beginnings of most "gods" other than The One God (YHVH).

I do not wish to sound rude..but.. I can't possibly wrap my mind around someone believing that as truth. I am snot sure I want any part of this philosophy.

one persons truth is not every-ones truth...there are many different beliefs about many parts of the scriptures....not only do Christians believe that their Way is the right Way, most of them believe that their own personal understanding is the proper understanding...

your questions can be answered in many different ways...and the majority is not always right.

Well I am willing to give this religion fair shake and it's beliefs considerable thought as I do with everything, but if it requires me to believe the creation story presented in it and the miracles performed by Jesus as fact, I am not quite sure I can do it.

the creation story is fact, but that fact can mean many different things to many people. Most that I know do not believe that it was literally 6 of our days....but 6 days to God which could be thousands of years to us...

I believe that the earth itself is billions of years old, and do not see how anyone could dispute that, but many do. Mankind was not evolved though...even if most everything else was...we were made from the same stuff as that of the earth, hence the similarities in dna between many species...and my educated guess would be app. 10,000 years ago...


Jesus' miracles...which one(s) are you having trouble with? They are no problem if He is who we say He is...and everyone of them was for a specific reason, to teach a deep lesson to those meant to receive it.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law...and as such He fulfilled all the blood ordinances...no more sacrifices, or atonement for sin in any other way but to ask for forgiveness from God in Jesus name and receive it from God, because you believe that Jesus was the forecast Messiah...who they(we) were waiting for.

Also, is the devil too literal or figurative?

again, depends on who you ask... I believe both. a real physical fallen angel who will return and pretend to be Jesus Christ come back..., as well as a condition in mankind because of our surroundings...

I..see.. Well thank you for the responses guys but, I do not believe this is for me. Thank you much though. I shall finish the book for useful philosophies however. ^-^

I tried reading the beginning first...and decided to read the NT before I got into the stuff I didn't understand...big difference...

after I had received Jesus(believed, repented and asked for Him in my life), I read the Old Testament, and was much better for it...and I continue to read both now, as I learn each time...it is a very deep, deep Book, the deepest ever...but understandable if we follow the patters given...what means what etc.

I am sorry, your book and religion is quite interesting, but I do not believe it is for me. I apologize, I would explain why but we are raised over here to have soft mouths. ^-^

well, you are international now, so go for it...perhaps if you said why, we could know how to at least give you an appropriate answer.....because if it is over a miscommunication, or a bad translation, someone might be able to help.

Well I was trying to be respectful as it my come of as rude to say, 'I believe your religion is false". I do not understand how one can accept this story when we have evolution and the other sciences.

a real understanding of the bible does not go against any of the sciences...including evolution...but it brings one light on the subject. We are not a mistake....or randomness...there is way to much proof for that in the universe...

Slime? What? Do, they not teach the history of the world and evolution and other important things in your country?

yes they do....(I'm from Canada mind you)

The image of Americans we have over here is smart and rendy, but I was unaware they believe we came from slime or in a garden with only two people.

evolution says slime...from a one celled organism to us over untold millions of years.

the bible does not say that all came from Adam and Eve, although the vast majority of Christians would disagree....

God created mankind on the 6th day

God rested on the 7th day

AND THEN God formed Adam after that

mankind was alive and thriving 1000's of years before Adam was formed....again, that will upset a lot of people, but it is a relatively easy thing to prove genetically and with the bible. Tradition of man stops many from believing the truth...even if intentions are good.




I pray that you continue your search, and honestly ask the One God that He reveal Himself to you through Jesus Christ.


in His service
c

 

[mahalia]

Kenta, I like you (in a platonic way, of course). It's interesting reading your posts and i wish all people could be as interested and inquisitive as you are. Good going

 

[mahalia]

Just some general things:
these are my opinions, or musings, or hypothesis (whatever the plural) so if you anybody here is more educated than me, be nice.

1. The whole evolution thing:
We're studying genetics and evolution in biology at the moment, and the more i look at it, the more i think that evolution and creationism are not completely seperate! my bio teacher is a devout christian and she approaches this whole thing with plenty care.

what i think, honestly, is that evolution has been proven. lichen in the industrial revolution, i'm sure everyone knows of htat example. the fact is, we all have a certain genetic make-up. the fact is that those individuals with genes beneficial to their survival, will survive - those who do not, will not. that's evolution. natural selection. as i undestand it, at least.

the Bible says God created us from dust. so, what if the literal one-day creation by God is seen by scientists as a thousand year process from one cell to a couple billion?

my belief is that, even if that is the case, God is the one who created that single cell and God is the one who created the process of evolution. He created genes. I still believe He created us.

2. The angels-are-gods thing
Now i'm not that clued up on mythology and the definition of gods, etc, but fine, angels may be seen as gods by certain peoples. many things are seen as gods. but in the Christian religion, they are not God, with a capital G. that's the difference. a god may be an object of adoration or whatever, but with Christianity, only the Trinity is God. Divine. get my drift?

i realize i am not nearly as educated as many in this thread, but that's my two cents, for now.