Winston Churchill

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You may see that as a reason to dig the guy, and that's your choice. Worthy of cherishing is a subjective matter. What's not subjective, though, is whether he was a competent leader who made a difference (compared to what would have happened with an average head of state in his stead).

Inspiration, determination and the right choices are not that common in executive authority actually.

When everyone already has realized it's a spade, and the issue of the day is how to get rid of it (rather than how to classify it), the guy who correctly identified it has no edge over a guy who earlier thought it was a lampstand.

Except the people who had tried to suppress Churchill during the build up also had doubts after the fall of France. For example - Halifax Chamberlains and then Churchills foreign secretary wanted to make peace with Hitler.


Only doing the obviously good and nothing else does not imply that you've done the best possible. Anyone who's not a chinless wonder can do as much, doing it doesn't qualify you for a brilliant leadership award. Great leadership would have been to come up with something less than obvious, and good. And besides, your examples weren't the entirety of his military-political leadership. You only listed those things you thought reflected well on him. Besides those, there are blunders like the terror-bombing of Germany and the break with France after its fall, leading the French government to form Vichy rather than fight on.

So really, almost all the correct strategical decisions of his were self-evident ones which pretty much anyone else would have done, while his failings are his own and ones other might have handled better.

The terror bombing of Germany destroyed a lot of heavy industry and diverted key German resources to air defence and had its roots in the Battle Of Britain as previously discussed. The break with France can be exaggerated, the fleet was not something we wanted to fall into German hands and the fighters were needed for the defence of the UK. The cultivation of Charles de Gaulle and his entry into Paris later on were hardly hostile acts- also the German propaganda machine exaggerrated the split. The British worked with the resistance throughout the war.

The leaders he fought against however while characters who made a big difference to their countries did much to sabotage their war efforts in a way that Churchills decisions never did.

Hitlers decision to delay the tanks at Dunkirk, his decision to make the 6th Army stand and fight at Stalingrad, the failure to equip the German army for a Winter campaign and launching Barbarossa so late in the year for example. His failure to make good use of the vast numbers of Russian soldiers he captured e.g. building railways etc.

Stalins massacre of his own high command has also been referred to in this OP as very bad leadership. Indeed the socalled industrial progress you attribute to him has much in fact to do with the theft of the property of previously properous Russians. After Stalin, with nothing left to steal, the progress of communism faltered since they had killed the source of their wealth.


Nice. Flowery. But nothing which implies that Churchill made any actual difference.

You are still not getting this point. Churchill was the only one who was making a difference here. Given the disposiiton of the British in the thirties it seems in fact that he may have been one of those who tipped the balance to fighting Hitler rather than making peace with him as had FRance.

Fallacious for reasons already shown. By the time Churchill got into power, everyone's eyes were equally open. Churchill's insight might have been useful earlier, but was redundant by the time when he got into power.

Halifax

Oh great, what does sympathy win you? It was not that sympathy (assuming he actually managed to get it) that brought the US into the war, it was Pearl Harbour.

Sympathy might be the wrong word here. The point is the Americans bought this conflict as one of good v evil and provided help long before Pearl Harbour with lend lease etc. Churchill played that relationship very well and no other leaders would not have done as well. Having an American mum is significant - ask Obama! Also America did not declare war against Germany because of Pearl Harbour. Hitler declared war on them in support of his ally Japan.

This is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You imply that appeasement stopped because people realized Churchill was right. You assume that because Churchill spoke out and eventually people began to believe the same as he, that he must have been responsible for changing peoples' minds. Which is fallacious. If A happens first and then B, it does not prove that B was because of A.

Rubbish, he was the leading voice arguing a view when it was unpopular. His view later became the mainstream point of view and you say he had nothing to do with that change!

Looking at the actual actions of Chamberlain & co disproves the armchair historian's notion that Chamberlain was a naive fool who was certain he had won peace in his time. Very shortly after Munich, Britain began seriously arming for war, introducing conscription and increasing military production significantly. Britain was aware of the possibility that war might be coming even as it sidelined Churchill. Britain prepared for war, and did go to war, without Churchill having had anything to do with it.

As I have already said the gap between Germany and the UK widened after Munich cause Germany spent 5 times as much on its military as we did. Chamberlain made things worse not better which is why Churchill led the vote against him in the peace for our time debate. What Chamberlain did was sabotage the possibility of an alliance with Czechoslovakia and France that might have prevailed against Hitler in 1938 and saved Europe and the world from 50 million deaths.
 
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PHenry42

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Inspiration, determination and the right choices are not that common in executive authority actually.

Inspiration and determination are meaningless if not harnessed in support of right action, which we've established Churchill didn't do much of, except where the right choice was pretty obvious.

Except the people who had tried to suppress Churchill during the build up also had doubts after the fall of France. For example - Halifax Chamberlains and then Churchills foreign secretary wanted to make peace with Hitler.

A few people do not a peace movement make. That Churchill didn't really have to fight to keep his cabinet from making peace proves that his opposition to peace was superfluous.

The terror bombing of Germany destroyed a lot of heavy industry and diverted key German resources to air defence and had its roots in the Battle Of Britain as previously discussed.

Not to the extent that it would have been anything like cost-efficient. Using those same resources differently would have made a much bigger difference, such as possibly an earlier D-Day. Terror bombing was based on the dubious idea that destroying civilian society is a much more efficient way to stop the enemy war effort than precision-targeting factories, a notion that turned out to be utterly wrong, something Churchill should have been able to predict from the Battle of Britain.

German war production kept steadily increasing through almost the entire war, despite terror bombing. Only in late 1944 did it began decreasing, a point at which the war was already decided anyway and the only open question was what the postwar map of Europe would look like.

The break with France can be exaggerated, the fleet was not something we wanted to fall into German hands and the fighters were needed for the defence of the UK. The cultivation of Charles de Gaulle and his entry into Paris later on were hardly hostile acts- also the German propaganda machine exaggerrated the split. The British worked with the resistance throughout the war.

The episode with the French fleet happened after Vichy had already been formed, when he had already failed to keep France from going collaborator. That France ended up forming Vichy, rather than going for a government-in-exile like pretty much every other Nazi-occupied country did.

The leaders he fought against however while characters who made a big difference to their countries did much to sabotage their war efforts in a way that Churchills decisions never did.

Hitlers decision to delay the tanks at Dunkirk, his decision to make the 6th Army stand and fight at Stalingrad, the failure to equip the German army for a Winter campaign and launching Barbarossa so late in the year for example. His failure to make good use of the vast numbers of Russian soldiers he captured e.g. building railways etc.

Churchill is great because he didn't do the military blunders Hitler did? That's a pretty easy standard for great leadership. Heck, even Mussolini would qualify as a great leader by that standard.

Stalins massacre of his own high command has also been referred to in this OP as very bad leadership. Indeed the socalled industrial progress you attribute to him has much in fact to do with the theft of the property of previously properous Russians. After Stalin, with nothing left to steal, the progress of communism faltered since they had killed the source of their wealth.

That's a suggestion that flies in the face of basic economic facts. You can't increase your GDP by redistributing wealth (which confiscating it is), wealth doesn't multiply just because you take it from somewhere and put it somewhere else. For its first 50 years, the USSR enjoyed decent to ludicrously fast economic growth. If all that was just spending of looted property, oh my, those Russian aristocrats must have been sitting on a McDuck money bin each.

You are still not getting this point. Churchill was the only one who was making a difference here. Given the disposiiton of the British in the thirties it seems in fact that he may have been one of those who tipped the balance to fighting Hitler rather than making peace with him as had FRance.

You've yet to show that there was any "balance" that needed to be tipped in the first place. Halifax is only one guy.

Sympathy might be the wrong word here. The point is the Americans bought this conflict as one of good v evil and provided help long before Pearl Harbour with lend lease etc. Churchill played that relationship very well and no other leaders would not have done as well. Having an American mum is significant - ask Obama! Also America did not declare war against Germany because of Pearl Harbour. Hitler declared war on them in support of his ally Japan.

Good vs evil? More like "Europeans at their wars again, we don't want anything to do with it". There was no great outpouring of sympathy. Roosevelt was the driving politician behind Lend-Lease, not Churchill. Yet, because of American isolationism, Roosevelt had to fight hard to get it passed, and even had to put a price tag on every item shipped to Britain. Stuff was neither lent, leased nor given, but SOLD, since the public would not agree to giving it away for free. That should tell you something about American enthusiasm for the war.

Rubbish, he was the leading voice arguing a view when it was unpopular. His view later became the mainstream point of view and you say he had nothing to do with that change!

To assume he did is arbitrary. If it's so evident as you claim, you should have no problem showing the causation. That his view later became the mainstream does not prove that he had anything to do with it becoming mainstream.

As I have already said the gap between Germany and the UK widened after Munich cause Germany spent 5 times as much on its military as we did. Chamberlain made things worse not better which is why Churchill led the vote against him in the peace for our time debate. What Chamberlain did was sabotage the possibility of an alliance with Czechoslovakia and France that might have prevailed against Hitler in 1938 and saved Europe and the world from 50 million deaths.

No crap, everyone knows with the luxury of hindsight that Munich was a mistake. Yet, that, is irrelevant for the question at hand, which is whether Churchill had anything to do with his opinion becoming the mainstream one later on.

That Chamberlain & co started preparing Britain for war right after Munich proves that they were completely aware of the possibility of war, that they didn't need Churchill to realize the obvious when Hitler had reneged on his pledge that the Munich demands would be his last.
 
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PHenry42

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The Industrial Revolution.

That's a label that describes what happens. It's not a cause. Neither something that implies that what happened happened magically on its own regardless of Stalin and would have happened just like that without.

The Industrial Revolution happened a hundred years earlier in plenty of places in the world, yet not the Tsar's Russia. Nor has it happened even today in a great number of places in the world.

Saying that Stalin's Russia managed to develop quickly because of the industrial revolution, with the implication that Stalin didn't have anything to do with it; is like saying that Germans in the 30s managed to get faster from city to city because of autobahns, not Hitler, and therefore Hitler has nothing to do with them getting from city to city faster.
 
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That's a label that describes what happens. It's not a cause. Neither something that implies that what happened happened magically on its own regardless of Stalin and would have happened just like that without.

The Industrial Revolution happened a hundred years earlier in plenty of places in the world, yet not the Tsar's Russia. Nor has it happened even today in a great number of places in the world.

Saying that Stalin's Russia managed to develop quickly because of the industrial revolution, with the implication that Stalin didn't have anything to do with it; is like saying that Germans in the 30s managed to get faster from city to city because of autobahns, not Hitler, and therefore Hitler has nothing to do with them getting from city to city faster.

No one's doubting the HUGE role Stalin played in brining the USSR into an industrial state into the first place. He did say 'We need to develop 100 years of industry within ten years or they crush us'. However, he did at a HIG cost of human life, and his unrealistic five year plans failed to meet targets.

That said, he did a wonderful job of industrializing a country that was essentially still feudalist.
 
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