Wine vs. Grape Juice

[New Legacy]

Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?

For Catholics, there is no more wine after the consecration. There is something which has the characteristics of wine, which the body still reacts to.

All the senses still detect it as bread and wine.

For Catholics, if one has an allergy to one of them, they can and should refrain.

 

[Athanasias]

Ha!!! I wonder how the LDS resolve Jesus turning the water in to wine? And the drinking of wine in the Bible.

wow that is a very good point!

 

[New Legacy]

Since that was the second time "communion in one kind" has been mentioned in this thread, I looked it up as actual nomenclature.

Okay, I get it...that answers my question to Catholics.

Catholics can receive communion through only one because they are substantially the same thing. They are only different in appearance. Both are used to emphasis the meal aspect.

Catholic laity did not receive from the chalice (again) until recently. I do not know if it was for practical or theological issues. That is, I have heard it was done against certain erroneous beliefs about having to receive both, or getting something extra from both.

Since they are substantially the same, then receiving from both is like receive more of the same thing. In the Catholic view, receiving a gram of communion is no less than receiving a kilogram. The amount does not matter, so receiving from both does not matter.

Communion was returned to two forms by the laity to place emphasis on the meal aspect, versus the sacrificial one.

 

[Cappadocious]

Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?

Are you allergic to wine, or allergic to modern wine stabilizers and sanitizers (sulfites, etc)?

 

[ebia]

they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. Numbers 6:3

And your point is? Today "grape juice" would be another way of saying wine, much as the Saxon words for beer and barley were the same word.

 

[ebia]

I'm still waiting on the Scriptural evidence that only wine should be used to commemorate the LORD's ultimate sacrifice.

Where's your scriptural evidence for using bread rather than any foodstuff - a mcdonalds hamburger maybe? It's a silly question. Jesus used wine; its appropriate to do the same.

 

[ebia]

By short, you are talking about hours. For our argument - I'll point out that grapes are covered in yeast, the minute it is crushed, the begin to go to work. By the end of the day, the wine would be bubbling away with fermentation.

and if it's not it'll have some very nasty bacteria growing in it. Un fermented, unpreserved, unrefrigerated fruit juice is not safe to drink unless it's just been squeezed.

 

[SwordFall]

The simple answer is that they didn't have grape juice back then. Everything was fermented, so it had to be wine that Jesus used at the Last Supper.

THANK YOU

People need to just accept the fact that in those times, all the way up until the invention of running tap water basically, fermented drink was a very, very regular part of society.

From what I understand the whole notion that they drunk grape juice is little more then a fabrication anyway.

 

[Lion King]

Remember that grapes are a seasonal crop--harvested in the fall in Israel. So, yeah, they could have grape juice for a very short time, if they wanted to.

But passover is in the spring, months after the grape harvest. The only way they were going to have liquid "from the fruit of the vine" for passover was by fermentation.

That may indeed be correct, but there is a reason Jesus Christ used the term "fruit of the vine" instead of simply saying wine.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the juice from grapes is sometimes used to represent blood. Therefore, if you partake in any drink made from grapes, whether fermented or unfermented, you are following Christ's example.

He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. Genesis 49:11

 

[Lion King]

Then I guess you could just say that you have to refrain from partaking of the Lord's supper. Obviously you don't trust that the Lord's Supper will not harm you. So it's good if you refrain, since partaking of the supper in an unworthy manner is to your detriment.

In all the outbreaks of swine flu that ravaged our town, no one got it from drinking out of the common cup for the Lord's supper. I wonder why that is.

No. I don't have to exclude myself, since Jesus Christ said nothing about wine being the only drink to be used at the LORD's Supper.

God considers the juice from grapes to be a PERFECT representation of His blood, that's why He said "fruit of the vine" instead of wine. If grape juice is good for God, it's good for me.


PS. There is also a saying in the Scriptures which says, " Thou shalt not test the LORD". I am allergic to wine. I will not willingly drink something that is damaging to my health just because someone on the internet said God will protect you. I may be foolish, but I am not that foolish as to test God.

He said "take this cup, which is the new covenant of my blood....do this as oft as you do in remembrance of me". The cup he had would've had wine in it, NOT grape juice.

For me, that's enough to know that it should be wine that is used in the Lord's Supper.

Note also that I said I am not a wine only person. I realize there may be instances where it cannot be used. But those instances should be the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

As I said before, there is a reason Jesus Christ used the term "fruit of the vine" instead of simply saying wine.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the juice from grapes is sometimes used to represent blood. Therefore, if you partake in any drink made from grapes, whether fermented or unfermented, you are following Christ's example.

He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. Genesis 49:11

Talk to Mr. Welch about that.

Grape juice was invented thousands of years before Mr Welch. God forbid the Nazrites from drinking or eating anything that came from the FRUIT OF THE VINEYARD. This included grapes, grape juice, wine, vinegar from wine, raisins etc.

There was a specific purpose for this. Do you know what it was? I'll give you a hint: it's in verse 2. The food/dietary laws in the OT were meant to remind the children of Israel of their standing with God. Note that Jesus talked about those laws and their application in reference to his purpose on earth.

And, furthermore, your translation is probably a "newer" translation. There really honestly wasn't any such thing as "grape juice" back in those days.

Uhmm, then can you explain to me what is being squeezed in the Pharoah's cup in the passage below? Is that not grape juice?

So the chief cupbearer told Joseph his dream. He said to him, “In my dream I saw a vine in front of me, 10 and on the vine were three branches. As soon as it budded, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. 11 Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into Pharaoh’s cup and put the cup in his hand.” Genesis 40:9-11


Also, can you give us the "older" translation for Numbers 6:1-4? Thanks.

 

[Lion King]

Grape juice was invented by Pasteur.

Oh, so before this Pasteur came about, there was no such thing as grape juice? How did the Israelites make wine if grape juice wasn't invented yet?

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin. Numbers 6:1-4

 

[Lion King]

Are you allergic to wine, or allergic to modern wine stabilizers and sanitizers (sulfites, etc)?

Sulphites.

All wine contain sulfites, even the ones produced in ancient Israel contained this preservative.

 

[Lion King]

Where's your scriptural evidence for using bread rather than any foodstuff - a mcdonalds hamburger maybe? It's a silly question. Jesus used wine; its appropriate to do the same.

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body. Matthew 26:26


There is my evidence for using bread instead of a Mcodonalds burger.

Now, your turn. Where is the Scriptural evidence that wine alone should be used for the LORD's supper?

And your point is? Today "grape juice" would be another way of saying wine, much as the Saxon words for beer and barley were the same word.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin. Numbers 6:1-4

In the ancient times, the words grape juice and wine were not synonymous.

 

[RDKirk]

Catholicism exists throughout the world and wine is still required.

Anyone with access to grape juice has access to wine.

Not everyone has access to grapes.

The answer given to me above was "communion of one kind." Everybody does have access to bread.

 

[RDKirk]

That may indeed be correct, but there is a reason Jesus Christ used the term "fruit of the vine" instead of simply saying wine.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the juice from grapes is sometimes used to represent blood. Therefore, if you partake in any drink made from grapes, whether fermented or unfermented, you are following Christ's example.

He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. Genesis 49:11

Has that been the only point you've intended to make all along?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh my goodness. I never knew people could be so blind to historical fact.

There is no actual word that translates into "grape juice" from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Grape juice was known as wine.

This isn't someone playing hard with theology, it's just a statement of fact. Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. The fact that Jesus used wine at the last supper SHOULD be enough to use wine at communion, since Jesus instructed us to do this.

Grape juice should be the rare exception, NOT the rule.

Now what is so impossibly hard about that?

 

[Lion King]

Oh my goodness. I never knew people could be so blind to historical fact.

There is no actual word that translates into "grape juice" from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Grape juice was known as wine.

Can you please provide the "older" translation to Numbers 6:1-4?

Can you provide Scriptural evidence to back up your claims that the grape juice mentioned in Scripture was actually wine?


Thank you.

This isn't someone playing hard with theology, it's just a statement of fact. Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. The fact that Jesus used wine at the last supper SHOULD be enough to use wine at communion, since Jesus instructed us to do this.

Grape juice should be the rare exception, NOT the rule.

Now what is so impossibly hard about that?

Jesus drank of the "fruit of the vine" at the Last Supper. In other words, He drank juice from grapes- which makes perfect sense, since the juice from the grapes is said to represent blood in both the Old and New Testament.

 

[abysmul]

What "real question"? Historical - wine. Traditional - wine. Scriptural - wine. There is NO case for using anything else, so there is no question except for those who like to question for the sake of questioning.

What about people that do not have access to grapes/wine? Believe it or not, the entire world is not living in the luxury of first world comfort. There are indeed many places where Christians not only live in fear and are persecuted, but they do not have access to wine.

 

[Albion]

What about people that do not have access to grapes/wine? Believe it or not, the entire world is not living in the luxury of first world comfort. There are indeed many places where Christians not only live in fear and are persecuted, but they do not have access to wine.

What you are asking about is "What happens if Communion is not possible?"

The churches have indeed dealt with the reality that sometimes there are people who do not have access to the sacrament, either because of Communism, isolation, or something else. In frontier America, members of my church went years without the benefits of Holy Communion, strictly because of there being no priests. So they continued on with their prayers, etc.

It is assumed that God will not penalize such people, but we certainly do not take the attitude that they ought to just improvise, going through some kind of mock service of the Lord's Supper and administering it to themselves . If it can't be had, then it can't be.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh my goodness. I never knew people could be so blind to historical fact.

There is no actual word that translates into "grape juice" from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Grape juice was known as wine.

This isn't someone playing hard with theology, it's just a statement of fact. Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. The fact that Jesus used wine at the last supper SHOULD be enough to use wine at communion, since Jesus instructed us to do this.

All very true and very simple requiring none of the theological gymnastics that temperance-oriented-interpretations of the wedding at Cana and the last supper dialogues force upon the text. So I say, three cheers for simple ordinary reading of the text as the foundation for forming one's practise in the Lord's supper.

Grape juice should be the rare exception, NOT the rule.

I'd rather see wine always used and no special attempts made to add preservatives and anti-yeast artificial compounds to prevent fermentation. If one needs low alcohol wine for the use of those who cannot take alcohol then there are several possible solutions to the requirement:

• Have communion in one kind (the unleavened bread alone), or
• Use young wine that has not fermented for long so that the alcohol content will be very low.

Now what is so impossibly hard about that?

Absolutely nothing is difficult about the solutions that you proposed.