wine or grape juice ? (holy supper)

[Der Alte]

When I was in the flagship Baptist seminary 40+ years ago I was serving as associate pastor in a Korean Baptist church they served real alcohol content wine for communion. We had one class "Preparation for Ministry" which didn't have very many requirements. One day we were discussing communion. When I mentioned my church served wine, not grape juice, the prof almost had a heart attack.
During the same time frame my Introduction to the NT class prof Dale Moody told us how his church in Texas, before I was born, which was where Dallas Fort Worth airport is now, served wine for communion which was made by the women deacons both of which my denomination frowns upon.

 

[WebersHome]

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The common Greek word translated "wine" is oinos (oy'-nos) which suffices for both fresh beverage and spoiled; for example:

● John 2:7-10 . . Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

. . .They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.

. . .Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

Now the interesting thing is this; the word "wine" is never used even one time in connection with Jesus' last supper. No, not once. He labeled the beverage "fruit of the vine" in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (No communion details are given in John's gospel.)

NOTE: Grapes are not the only fruits that grow on vines. Berries do too, and seeing as how no specific beverage is listed in the menu for Passover in the twelfth chapter of Exodus, then we're left to guess at the species of fruit juice that Jesus and his men consumed during his last supper.

In my opinion, an intoxicating beverage is a bad choice to offer in modern communion services due to the fact that numbers of Christians nowadays are recovering alcoholics for whom even so much as a whiff of booze has the potential to cause them to fall off the wagon. Surely no "Christian" church wants to be responsible for that to happen!

● Rom 14:13 . . Make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

● Rom 14:21 . . It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

And we certainly wouldn't want to break the law by serving underage children alcohol because it's not only illegal, but there's always the possibility of steering them early in life towards a drinking problem later.

● Matt 18:6 . . If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

NOTE: According to Jesus' sabbath teachings; consideration for human life and safety moderates religious practices; so I seriously doubt that he would object to serving a non alcoholic beverage to remember his crucifixion rather than something stronger.
_

 

[Albion]

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. . .Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

Wouldn't the happy comment about the best stuff having been saved until last suggest that it was actually wine?

 

[RDKirk]

Now the interesting thing is this; the word "wine" is never used even one time in connection with Jesus' last supper. No, not once. He labeled the beverage "fruit of the vine" in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (No communion details are given in John's gospel.)

NOTE: Grapes are not the only fruits that grow on vines. Berries do too, and seeing as how no specific beverage is listed in the menu for Passover in the twelfth chapter of Exodus, then we're left to guess at the species of fruit juice that Jesus and his men consumed during his last supper.

So in your studies, what other vine-borne fruits have been used to make beverages since ancient times in the Middle East? I haven't been able to find any other vine-borne fruits that have been used to make beverages since ancient times in the Middle East.

 

[SeekingGloryOnThisJourney]

i've seen churches that use wine, other grape juice

what is the difference?

I had no clue some Churches use grape juice. XP

 

[Der Alte]

.
The common Greek word translated "wine" is oinos (oy'-nos) which suffices for both fresh beverage and spoiled; for example:
● John 2:7-10 . . Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."
. . .They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
. . .Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
Now the interesting thing is this; the word "wine" is never used even one time in connection with Jesus' last supper. No, not once. He labeled the beverage "fruit of the vine" in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (No communion details are given in John's gospel.)
NOTE: Grapes are not the only fruits that grow on vines. Berries do too, and seeing as how no specific beverage is listed in the menu for Passover in the twelfth chapter of Exodus, then we're left to guess at the species of fruit juice that Jesus and his men consumed during his last supper.
In my opinion, an intoxicating beverage is a bad choice to offer in modern communion services due to the fact that numbers of Christians nowadays are recovering alcoholics for whom even so much as a whiff of booze has the potential to cause them to fall off the wagon. Surely no "Christian" church wants to be responsible for that to happen!
● Rom 14:13 . . Make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
● Rom 14:21 . . It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
And we certainly wouldn't want to break the law by serving underage children alcohol because it's not only illegal, but there's always the possibility of steering them early in life towards a drinking problem later.
● Matt 18:6 . . If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
NOTE: According to Jesus' sabbath teachings; consideration for human life and safety moderates religious practices; so I seriously doubt that he would object to serving a non alcoholic beverage to remember his crucifixion rather than something stronger.
_

Passover is in March-April. The grape harvest is June-July in Israel. They had no refrigeration any fruit of the vine which was served at Passover would either be spoiled or fermented into wine.
At the wedding μεθυσθωσιν/methusthosin the word translated "well drunk" means intoxicated not drinking a lot of something.
How much juice does a person have to drink before they can't tell the difference between bad and good juice?

 

[RDKirk]

Passover is in March-April. The grape harvest is June-July in Israel.

The previous year, in case anyone got confused.

 

[JLHargus]

i've seen churches that use wine, other grape juice

what is the difference?

JL: There was no such thing as grape juice till the eighteen hundreds.

 

[JackRT]

JL: There was no such thing as grape juice till the eighteen hundreds.

Actually it would have been available for a few weeks during the grape harvest. Beyond that wild yeasts would ferment it.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually it would have been available for a few weeks during the grape harvest. Beyond that wild yeasts would ferment it.

The grape harvest in Israel is in autumn. Passover is in spring.

 

[Lavaduder]

There you go.

and for ordinary use as well.

Ordinary use? I won't consider great consumption of alcohol unless one was on their deathbed.

Spoiler: Proverbs 31:6

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

 

[Radagast]

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[Der Alte]

When I was in Seminary SBTS about 37 years ago. In one class Preparation for Ministry we were discussing the Lord's Supper and the professor got really agitated when I told him the Korean church I served in used real wine, Mogen David I think, for the Lord's Supper. During the same time frame another professor Dr. Dale Moody talked about how when he was a boy early 20th century in Texas the women deacons made the wine for the Lord's supper.

 

[WebersHome]

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Even if the fruit of the vine that Jesus and his men consumed during his last Passover was intoxicating, that doesn't mean we have to serve it that way too.

According to 1Cor 11:26-29 the important thing is that we commemorate the Lord's crucifixion rather than his beverages.

● 2Tim 2:14 . . Command them in God's name to stop quarrelling over trifles.

In a Sean Connery movie titled "The Name Of The Rose" church dignitaries assembled a meeting of the minds to reach a resolution on a theological question which was: Did the Christ own the clothes that he wore or not?

Well, needless to say, the discussion turned into bickering wherein nothing was resolved. Tempers flared, shouting ensued, feelings were hurt, and people were alienated over the issue— a rather meaningless issue; which is precisely what it means to fiddle while Rome burns down around you.

Christians are often embroiled in arguments over things that in the grand scheme of things have almost zero importance while all around them are weightier matters begging their attention.

NOTE: It's interesting that Paul didn't want Timothy's flock instructed to avoid quarrelling over trifles, rather, to stop quarrelling. I can't help but wonder how many Christians think to seek absolution for the sin of quarrelling over trifles when they go to God in prayer.
_

 

[Daniel Marsh]

i've seen churches that use wine, other grape juice

what is the difference?

The NT church used wine or Paul would not have to correct them for getting drunk. Romans 14 and modern movement related to drinking are the basic justifications for using grape juice today.

 

[GodLovesCats]

All the churches I have been in all have used grape juice.

The last one we went to preached that it was fruit of the vine, that Christ being holy, spotless and pure could not partake in fermented beverage.

If fermentation is a natural process God made, how can it be considered making grape juice less pure?

The only thing I can see that could convince people wine should not be consumed is Gabriel told Elizabeth her son John will never have "wine or strong drink" during his announcement of her pregnancy. Could the statement be specific to alcoholic wine or literally mean John will not drink it, without any implication that others will not be allowed to drink fermented grapes in liquid form?

 

[Albion]

All the churches I have been in all have used grape juice ...

The last one we went to preached that it was fruit of the vine...that Christ being holy, spotless and pure could not partake in fermented beverage...

That's an interesting twist, but there's plenty in Scripture that strongly suggests that he did approve of it, however.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I had no clue some churches use grape juice.

I read Pentecostal churches do it, but have no idea why.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If fermentation is a natural process God made, how can it be considered making grape juice less pure?

Digestion is a natural process God made, and it definitely makes grape juice impure. No one could fish it out of the toilet and call it equally pure to grape juice. Fermentation is the digestion caused by yeast.

I've never been in a church that didn't offer juice, and I've never had wine in my life. I never intend to, for any reason.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Digestion is a natural process God made, and it definitely makes grape juice impure. No one could fish it out of the toilet and call it equally pure to grape juice. Fermentation is the digestion caused by yeast.

Do you eat cheese? There is fermentation involved in making cheese. Yogurt? Same thing. Do you eat bread? There is fermentation involved in every bread but flatbread. Sauerkraut? That's fermented too. Fermentation is an ancient technique for preserving foods. From way before toilet bowls were ever invented.

I've never been in a church that didn't offer juice, and I've never had wine in my life. I never intend to, for any reason.

Not saying you have to drink wine, or even try it. But I guess you have never been in a Catholic Church. Or Orthodox. Or Lutheran. I have never known a Catholic (or Orthodox or Lutheran for that matter) church that didn't use real wine. It would just seem oddly wrong to Catholics to use anything but wine (even a low alcohol wine, still real wine) for Communion.