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Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

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thereselittleflower

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adam332

I am not sure who you were directing your post to, but I will respond to it . .

Here is a very interesting entry "Communion Wine"

http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html

This is an article from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem Published between 1925 and 1930 . . .

It covers your poing above and others from various perspectives . .


Peace in Him!
 
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RhetorTheo

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thereselittleflower said:
adam332

I am not sure who you were directing your post to, but I will respond to it . .

Here is a very interesting entry "Communion Wine"

http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html

This is an article from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem Published between 1925 and 1930 . . .

It covers your point above and others from various perspectives . .


Peace in Him!

Thanks. That article is devastating to the "unfermented wine" crowd. A must read.
 
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pmarquette

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what is good , what is lovely , what is of good report , dwell on these things ...
1. booze is bad for ministers , for laity , for children
2. alcohol within the wine is not necessary to have the Lord's supper
3. the impartation of grace , either by meditation or partaking , is an
act of faith in the Word of God , made flesh
4. not the alcoholic content of the wine ....
give it a rest ....
 
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thereselittleflower

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pmarquette

Peace . ..

There is nothing wrong with this discussion . . :)

Booze, in excess, is bad for anyone . . a little sip of wine is not in excess . .

Self control is what is the issue when it comes to drink . . . not a sip of wine itself . .

In the cup of communion, if it is prepared the way it was in the ancient church, it is watered down wine . . .

It is not the alcoholic content of the wine, agreed . . otherwise we would have to make sure the wine was a certain proof and watered down "just so" . .

The issue is whether it is wine or just juice . . not how strong the wine is . .


The cup of the Last Supper was the 3rd Cup of the feast . . drinking wine ceased between the 3rd and 4th cup because it could cause drunkeness, because people could have too much wine and be inebriated . .

This is one of the indications that tell us that the 3rd cup of this Jewish feast was alcoholic wine, not grape juice . .

Since the 3rd Cup is what Jesus said "this is my blood" then we should partake of of the contents of that 3rd cup and not substitute something else for it . .

For Protestant communion services, it may not seem like such a big deal, as what is being done is a commemoration of the Last Supper, it is a symbol, and not really the blood of our Lord . . merely a symbolic representation of the blood of our Lord . .

But for Catholics, Orthodox, (and I am not sure if Lutherans and/or Anglicans see it as important any more), it really becomes the blood of our Lord in the consecration, so it is very important that we use what Christ used when he said, "this is my blood" . .


So, where it is not an important issue to you, it is for some of us and discussing this is of some value . . and those discussing it should not be ridiculed or chastized like little children . .

:)


Peace in Him!
 
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reformedfan

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My really brilliant, retired pastor friend researched this, & Psalm 4 was of particular interest to him in his defense of grape juice communion.
Verse 7 refers to "new wine" and the harvest. He sez there wouldn't possibly have been time for the "new wine", or grape juice, to ferment into wine by the time harvest time came along. If nothing else, this is a Scriptural example of g. juice being called wine in the Bible.
To him this means grape juice is great for observing the Lord's Supper.
 
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Philip

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reformedfan said:
My really brilliant, retired pastor friend researched this, & Psalm 4 was of particular interest to him in his defense of grape juice communion.
Verse 7 refers to "new wine" and the harvest. He sez there wouldn't possibly have been time for the "new wine", or grape juice, to ferment into wine by the time harvest time came along. If nothing else, this is a Scriptural example of g. juice being called wine in the Bible.
To him this means grape juice is great for observing the Lord's Supper.

However, the Hebrew word in Psalms 4:7 is tı̂yrôsh (freshly pressed wine), not yayin (fermented wine). This verse demonstrates that the Israelites had separate words for grape juice and wine.
 
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adam332

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theresa's little flower,
please talk to ANY serious Jew. There was absolutely NO ALCOHOLIC beverage allowed to be in the building during passover week!!!!!! Nothing fermented PERIOD! Not a crumb or a drop! Please check the Jewish encyclopedia, or any other authorative source.
 
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RhetorTheo

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adam332 said:
theresa's little flower,
please talk to ANY serious Jew. There was absolutely NO ALCOHOLIC beverage allowed to be in the building during passover week!!!!!! Nothing fermented PERIOD! Not a crumb or a drop! Please check the Jewish encyclopedia, or any other authorative source.

Views of Modern Orthodox Jews

Modern Ashkenazic orthodox Jews follow the precept of the "Magen Abraham" (a commentary on the "Shulchan Aruk," which is a rabbinical authority of first importance on all ritual questions since the destruction of the Temple) directing the ritual use of old wine (Hebrew yayin yashan). In a note under section 272 of this commentary it is said that there is a difference of opinion whether consecration may be made over strong wine (Hebrew, shaker). Dr. M. Gaster, the haham, a contemporary Jewish scholar, speaking for all Sephardic Jews, denies that a Passover has been celebrated if unfermented wine has been used. On the other hand, the late Chief Rabbi, Dr. Adler, stated in 1883: "Jews from time immemorial used fermented and unfermented wine on every occasion including the Passover." However, the general consensus of orthodox rabbinical opinion is that the use of unfermented wine is contrary to the ritual, and that where fermented wine is not procurable, sanctification is to be said only over the unleavened bread, while the words for the wine are to be omitted.


There you go, right from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem, published between 1925 and 1930, that was linked to above.

http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html

Note what they correctly say: if the wine is not fermented, then you did not celebrate the Passover. Fermentation is not only allowed, it is REQUIRED and VITAL. You cannot rob Jesus's blood of its power, and rob God of his glory, and still have the Jesus and God of the Bible.
 
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pmarquette

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thereselittleflower said:
pmarquette

Peace . ..
There is nothing wrong with this discussion . . :)
Booze, in excess, is bad for anyone . . a little sip of wine is not in excess . .
Self control is what is the issue when it comes to drink . . . not a sip of wine itself . .

In the cup of communion, if it is prepared the way it was in the ancient church, it is watered down wine . . .
It is not the alcoholic content of the wine, agreed . . otherwise we would have to make sure the wine was a certain proof and watered down "just so" . . The issue is whether it is wine or just juice . . not how strong the wine is . .
The cup of the Last Supper was the 3rd Cup of the feast . . drinking wine ceased between the 3rd and 4th cup because it could cause drunkeness, because people could have too much wine and be inebriated . .
in 40+ years of Catholic Communion , the wine I tasted was not " water'd down " .... and many minister's breath , except you knew what had just taken place , would have thought they just came from a tavern ( perception and reality )
This is one of the indications that tell us that the 3rd cup of this Jewish feast was alcoholic wine, not grape juice . .
Since the 3rd Cup is what Jesus said "this is my blood" then we should partake of of the contents of that 3rd cup and not substitute something else for it . . Is it in the Churches best interest for minister's to give both species to teens and young adults of a 12-14% alcoholic wine ? Or a glorified grape juice with a little " bite ?"

For Protestant communion services, it may not seem like such a big deal, as what is being done is a commemoration of the Last Supper, it is a symbol, and not really the blood of our Lord . . merely a symbolic representation of the blood of our Lord . . run a search on the word rendered " communion " ;
Koinoiea .... and see that it means more than just what is written in the sixth chapter of John , then restate this paragraph ...

But for Catholics, Orthodox, (and I am not sure if Lutherans and/or Anglicans see it as important any more), it really becomes the blood of our Lord in the consecration, so it is very important that we use what Christ used when he said, "this is my blood" . . as on the day of atonement with the scape goat , as when Moses transfered his authority to Joshua , as when the Spirit came into the upper room , some thing happens .... by faith , by the Word , by the invoking of Jesus' name ... none of which depends upon where the bread or wine came from , whether it be soft taco shell and juice or hosts and altar wine .... If God can work with Baalam's donkey , he can get around the
brand of elements used ...:blush:


So, where it is not an important issue to you, it is for some of us and discussing this is of some value . . and those discussing it should not be ridiculed or chastized like little children . . :bow:
to say a point is in excess , to point out that it does not matter , to
point to the cross , the Spirit , and our Lord & that we as Christians
do observe the Lord's Supper , though differently ... is majoring on
the minor issues ... If that be chastisement and not 2 Timothy 3.16
then , once more I have failed .... mea culpa ...

:)Peace in Him!
....................................................
We get in these circular arguements , between the branches , and the central point is often missed ...
1. who was speaking - Jesus
2. what did he speak of - remember , do , his death
3. when would it take place - soon
4. who would follow - all but John martyred
5. who would take his place - Holy Spirit and Peter
6. our part in the whole thing - learn , go , and do
7. how ... by the Holy Spirit , who raised Jesus , who enables us ...
 
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thereselittleflower

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pmarquette said:
....................................................

in 40+ years of Catholic Communion , the wine I tasted was not " water'd down " .... and many minister's breath , except you knew what had just taken place , would have thought they just came from a tavern ( perception and reality )


I have to ask . . did you ever actually watch what the priest did before and during the consecration of the host and cup? The priest is required by the rubrics, and has always been required, to add water to the wine . . this does not make it "watered down' in the sense that it becomes like water, but it IS watered wine!

This can be seen practiced by the Early Church Fathers from their writings . .

It is practiced today at every mass performed all over the world . .


Is it in the Churches best interest for minister's to give both species to teens and young adults of a 12-14% alcoholic wine ? Or a glorified grape juice with a little " bite ?"


It is in the Church's best interest to do exactly as Christ commanded them to do as He did it! The 3rd cup was alcoholic wine . . that is the cup of communion . . it is in our best interest to do as He did . .

as on the day of atonement with the scape goat , as when Moses transfered his authority to Joshua , as when the Spirit came into the upper room , some thing happens .... by faith , by the Word , by the invoking of Jesus' name ... none of which depends upon where the bread or wine came from , whether it be soft taco shell and juice or hosts and altar wine .... If God can work with Baalam's donkey , he can get around the
brand of elements used ...



God can use and do whatever He wants to . He is not bound by His own laws that are given to us! (boy, can I attest to this from my personal experiences!)

But we are commanded to do something . . Jesus said THIS is the cup . . and He explicitly referred to the 3rd cup!


The Church is also given the power to bind and loose .. this is a rabbinic binding and loosing, of binding religious customs of worship and living upon its members, and of loosing them at its discression . . so if the Church decides that this is what we use for bread, this is what we use for wine, it is functioning in its authority to do so.




Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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adam332 said:
theresa's little flower,
please talk to ANY serious Jew. There was absolutely NO ALCOHOLIC beverage allowed to be in the building during passover week!!!!!! Nothing fermented PERIOD! Not a crumb or a drop! Please check the Jewish encyclopedia, or any other authorative source.
Quote: RoleTroll:
Views of Modern Orthodox Jews

Modern Ashkenazic orthodox Jews follow the precept of the "Magen Abraham" (a commentary on the "Shulchan Aruk," which is a rabbinical authority of first importance on all ritual questions since the destruction of the Temple) directing the ritual use of old wine (Hebrew yayin yashan). In a note under section 272 of this commentary it is said that there is a difference of opinion whether consecration may be made over strong wine (Hebrew, shaker). Dr. M. Gaster, the haham, a contemporary Jewish scholar, speaking for all Sephardic Jews, denies that a Passover has been celebrated if unfermented wine has been used. On the other hand, the late Chief Rabbi, Dr. Adler, stated in 1883: "Jews from time immemorial used fermented and unfermented wine on every occasion including the Passover." However, the general consensus of orthodox rabbinical opinion is that the use of unfermented wine is contrary to the ritual, and that where fermented wine is not procurable, sanctification is to be said only over the unleavened bread, while the words for the wine are to be omitted.

There you go, right from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem, published between 1925 and 1930, that was linked to above.

http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html

Note what they correctly say: if the wine is not fermented, then you did not celebrate the Passover. Fermentation is not only allowed, it is REQUIRED and VITAL. You cannot rob Jesus's blood of its power, and rob God of his glory, and still have the Jesus and God of the Bible.

:)

Peace in Him!
 
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pmarquette

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I have to ask . . did you ever actually watch what the priest did before and during the consecration of the host and cup? The priest is required by the rubrics, and has always been required, to add water to the wine . . this does not make it "watered down' in the sense that it becomes like water, but it IS watered wine! theresalittleflower
......................
Yes I remember , from being an altar boy : during Communion some water is placed into the wine to symbolize the last moments when the soldier pierced the side of Jesus & both water and blood came out .... the amount of water seems to be up to the priest [ some added a teaspoon others cut the wine 10-20% ] ; and a piece of the host is dropped into the wine to symbolize the flesh that was mutilated - Isaiah 53.1-3 ..... the question is " is the type and " proof - % alcohol " of altar wine set by mother church or is it up to the local parish priest ?

I ask for many noncatholic's who are on the outside , looking in ; who are not familiar with the Mass , the doctrine , dogma , and traditions of Mother Church , who struggle to understand " who , what , when , where , why , and how ?" As many Catholics do the same about their Protestant brothers .

What is taken by faith on one side of the fence , needs a little explaination on the other , that we might both be on the " same doctrinal page " , so to speak .

If the type , volume , proof , and method are all set ; then the question is a bit " rhetorical " . If there is some lattitude within
the Pastor's authority , it is a valid question .
 
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aardvark

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thereselittleflower said:
aardvark,

you are going to have to show me authoratative sources that clearly show how grapes could have been preserved free of frementation for that long . . what you posted above flies in the face of all I have learned about this subject . . . I am willing to learn something new, but not willing to accept that something like this is so without proof . . :)


Peace in Him!

I had a look at a site adam332 posted on 23rd December 2003 at 03:30 AM. This site contains the references I was talking about so I'll just be lazy and not repeat them :) .
 
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Sinai

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The rather heated discussion between those who think that it is only proper to use wine for the Lord's supper or communion and those who think that it is only proper to use unfermented grape juice may possibly underscore the wisdom of the gospels in not specifying which is correct--or whether either might be used. The original text regarding the last supper does not specify whether "the fruit of the vine" was fermented or unfermented.



You can find theological arguments on both sides of the issue. Those who favor using fermented wine tend to point to other verses in the New Testament that associate Jesus or his followers with fermented drink. Those who favor using unfermented grape juice tend to point to other verses in the Bible that either caution against drinking wine or strong drink, or which forbid using fermentation when celebrating Passover.



Had the scriptures said that we must use one or the other when partaking of the Lord’s supper, then that would have settled it. Instead, we were told we are to eat the bread and to drink the cup in remembrance of Jesus and what he did for us. When we argue over minutiae, we may lose the worshipful attitude and thanksgiving we should have while remembering what our savior did for us……
 
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wacotton

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The last supper was most definately the Passover meal. Anything fermented or leavened was strictly forbidden by the Mosaic law during the Passover. Below are some Bible verses and commentaries which show this to be true.

Exodus 12:14-20 KJV
So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. 15Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven(7603) from your houses. For whoever eats leavened(2557) bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat—that only may be prepared by you. 17So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance. 18In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. 19For seven days no leaven(7603) shall be found in your houses, since whoever eats what is leavened(2557), that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a stranger or a native of the land. 20You shall eat nothing leavened(2557); in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.’”

Strong’s Concordance
H2557 chamets khaw-mates'
From H2556; ferment, (figuratively) extortion:—leaven, leavened (bread).
H7603 se'or seh-ore'
From H7604; barm or yeast cake (as swelling by fermentation):—leaven.
H2556 chamets khaw-mates'
A primitive root; to be pungent; that is, in taste (sour, that is, literally fermented, or figuratively harsh), in color (dazzling):—cruel (man), dyed, be grieved, leavened.

Spiros Zodhiates Th.D.
2557 This masc. noun is derived from chamets(2556). It is anything which is fermented or leavened (even ill-gotten wealth). The normal process of bread-making included some form of yeast to make the bread rise i.e., the natural fermentation of benign bacteria. During the Passover, no one was allowed to eat leavened bread (Ex. 12:15; 13:3,7). Unleavened bread signified the suddenness of the deliverance of the Israelites by God (Deut. 16:3). Ordinary leavened bread was prohibited on other occasions (Ex 23:18; 34:25; Lev. 2:11; 6:17), but allowable under certain circumstances (Lev. 7:13; 23:17; Amos 4:5). It later became a symbol of corruption and impurity in the Jewish religious system (see Matt. 16:12; Mark 8:15; 1 Cor. 5:8).
2556 to be sharp, be sour, be salted, to be leavened; dazzling (in color); to be violent; to be excited, be bitterly moved (Ps. 73:21). The basic meaning of the root of these forms was fermentation (Ex. 12:19, 20, 34, 39)

Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible Ex. 12:14-20
And this day hath become to you a memorial, and ye have kept it a feast to Jehovah to your generations;—a statute age-during; ye keep it a feast. 15Seven days ye eat unleavened things; only—in the first day ye cause leaven to cease out of your houses; for any one eating anything fermented from the first day till the seventh day, even that person hath been cut off from Israel.
16‘And in the first day is a holy convocation, and in the seventh day ye have a holy convocation; any work is not done in them, only that which is eaten by any person—it alone is done by you, 17and ye have observed the unleavened things, for in this self-same day I have brought out your hosts from the land of Egypt, and ye have observed this day to your generations—a statute age-during.
18‘In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, ye do eat unleavened things until the one and twentieth day of the month, at evening; 19seven days leaven is not found in your houses, for any one eating anything fermented—that person hath been cut off from the company of Israel, among the sojourners or among the natives of the land; 20anything fermented ye do not eat, in all your dwellings ye do eat unleavened things.’

Hasting’s Dictionary of the Bible
The leaven both of OT and of NT may be assumed to have always consisted of a piece of fermented dough from a previous baking. There is no clear trace, even in the Mishna, of other sorts of leaven, such as the lees of wine or those enumerated by Pliny (Hist. Nat. xviii. 26).

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith, LL.D.
Various substances were known to have fermenting qualities; but the ordinary leaven consisted of a lump of old dough in a high state of fermentation, which was mixed into the mass of dough prepared for baking. The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire. During the Passover the Jews were commanded to put every particle of leaven from the house. The most prominent idea associated with leaven is connected with the corruption which it had undergone, and which it communicated to bread in the process of fermentation. It is to this property of leaven that our Saviour points when He speaks of the “leaven (i.e. the corrupt doctrine) of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees,” Matt. 16:6; and St. Paul, when he speaks of the “old leaven.” 1 Cor. 5:7

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
Leaven, sour dough, in a high state of fermentation, was used in general in making bread. It required time to fulfill the process. Hence, when food was required at short notice, unleavened cakes were used, e.g., Gen. 18:6; 19:3; Ex. 12:8. The Israelites were forbidden to use leaven for seven days at the time of the Passover, that they might be reminded that the Lord brought them out of Egypt “in haste,” Deut. 16:3, with Ex. 12:11; the unleavened bread, insipid in taste, reminding them, too, of their afflictions, and of the need of self-judgement, is called “the bread of affliction.”, leaven was utterly inconsistent in offerings which typified the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

The Companion Bible by Kregel Publications-Appendix 38
Its first occurance in Ex. 12:15 significantly marks it as something to be “put away.” There is no dispute as to the meaning of the word, which is sour or fermenting dough.

Easton’s Bible Dictionary
(1.) Heb. seor (Ex. 12:15, 19; 13:7; Lev. 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.
(2.) Heb. hamets, properly “ferment.” In Num. 6:3, “vinegar of wine” is more correctly “fermented wine.” In Ex. 13:7, the proper rendering would be, “Unfermented things [Heb. matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders.” The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is “a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion.”
The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Lev. 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Num. 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Cor. 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matt. 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matt. 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Cor. 5:7, 8).

Holman Bible Dictionary
LEAVEN (Leeaw' vehn) A small portion of fermented dough used to ferment other dough and often symbolizing a corruptive influence. The common bread of Old Testament times was made with leaven. Such bread was acceptable as wave offerings for the priests and as loaves to accompany the peace offerings (Lev. 7:11-13; 23:17). However, bread made with leaven or honey, both associated with the process of fermentation and thus a source of corruption, was never to be used as offerings to be burned on the alter (Lev. 2:11-12). Unleavened bread was also prepared in times of haste (1 Sam. 18:24) and was required for the Feast of Unleavened Bread which was celebrated in conjunction with the Passover festival (Lev. 23:4-8). This unleavened bread, or bread of affliction, reminded the Israelites of their hasty departure from Egypt and warned them against corruptive influences (Ex. 12:14-20).

Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Old Testament
Unleavened bread— , from  , to squeeze or compress, because the bread prepared without leaven or yeast was generally compressed, sad or heavy, as we term it. The word here properly signifies unleavened cakes; the word for leaven in Hebrew is  , which simply signifies to ferment. It is supposed that leaven was forbidden on this and other occasions, that the bread being less agreeable to the taste, it might be emblematical of their bondage and bitter servitude, as this seems to have been one design of the bitter herbs which were commanded to be used on this occasion; but this certainly was not the sole design of the prohibition: leaven itself is a species of corruption, being produced by fermentation, which in such cases tends to putrefaction. In this very light St. Paul considers the subject in this place; hence, alluding to the passover as a type of Christ, he says: Purge out therefore the old leaven—for Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.

Full Life Study Bible
USE OF WINE IN LORD’S SUPPER. Did Jesus use fermented or unfermented grape drink when He instituted the Lord’s Supper (Mat. 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20; 1 cor. 11:23-26)? The following data support the conclusion that what Jesus and His disciples drank was unfermented grape juice.
1) Neither Luke nor any other Biblical writer uses the word “wine” (Gk. oinos) in regard to the Lord’s Supper. The first three Gospel writers use “fruit of the vine” (Mat. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18). Unfermented wine is the only true natural “fruit of the vine,” containing approximately 20 percent sugar and no alcohol. Fermentation destroys much of the sugar and alters what the vine produced. Fermented wine is not the product of the vine.
2) The Lord’s Supper was instituted when Jesus and His disciples were eating the Passover. The Passover law in Ex. 12:14-20 prohibited, during Passover week, the presence and use of seor (Ex. 12:15), a word refrring to leaven, yeast, or any agent of fermentation. Seor in the ancient world was often obtained from the thick scum on top of fermenting wine. Furthermore, all hametz (i.e., anything containing any fermentation) was forbidden (Ex. 12:19; 13:7; see 13:7 , note). God had given these laws because fermentation symbolized corruption and sin (cf. Mat. 16:6, 12; 1 Cor. 5:7-8). Jesus, the Son of God, fulfilled the law in every requirement (Mat. 5:17). Thus, He would have followed God’s law for the Passover and not used fermented wine.
3) A rather lively debate has taken place over the centuries among Jewish rabbis and scholars as to whether fermented products of the vine were allowed in the Passover. Those who held to a stricter and more literal interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures, especially Ex. 13:7, insisted that no fermented wine was to be used on this occasion.
4) Some Jewish sources affirm that the use of unfermented wine at the Passover was common in N.T. times. For example, “According to the synoptic Gospels, it would appear that on the Thursday evening of the last week of His life Jesus with His disciples entered Jerusalem in order to eat the Passover meal with them in the sacred city; if so, the wafer and the wine of…the communion service then instituted by Him as a memorial would be the unleavened bread and the unfermented wine of the Seder service” (see “Jesus,” The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1904 edition, v.165)
5) In the O.T. fermented drink was never to be used in the house of God, nor were the priests allowed to draw near to God in worship while drinking intoxicating beverages (see Lev. 10:9, note). Jesus Christ was God’s High Priest of the new covenant, drawing nigh to God for the sake of His people (Heb. 3:1; 5:1-10).
6) The value of a symbol is determined by its capacity to conceptualize the spiritual reality. Therefore, just as the bread represented the pure body of Christ and had to be unleavened (i.e., uncorrupted with fermentation), the fruit of the vine, representing the incorruptible blood of Christ, would have been best represented by juice that was unfermented (cf. 1 Pet. 1:18-19). Since Scripture states explicitly that the process of corruption was not allowed to work in either the body or blood of Christ (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27; 13:37), both of these are properly symbolized by that which is uncorrupted and unfermented.
7) Paul instructed the Corinthians to put away spiritual yeast, i.e., the fermenting agent of “malice and wickedness,” because Christ is our Passover (1 Cor. 5:6-8). It would be inconsistent with the goal and spiritual requirement of the Lord’s Suppper to use something which was a symbol of evil, i.e., something with leaven or yeast.
Exodus 13:7 Note During the week of the Passover, leaven (Heb. Se’or, i.e., any yeastlike substance capable of producing fermentation in dough or a liquid) and any thing leavened (Heb. Hamets, i.e., anything that had undergone fermentation or anything with yeast in it) was to be removed from the homes of the Israelites (cf. 12:15,19). In 12:15 and 13:7 hamets is translated “leavened bread”; however, the literal meaning of the word is “fermented thing.”
Leviticus 10:9 Note Abstinence from intoxicating wine was required of all priests when performing their religious duties. (1)They were expected to be a holy vessel before God and the people whom they were to teach soberly the way of God (vv.10-11; see Eph. 5:18, notes). (2) The violation of this ordinance about abstinence was serious enough to incur the penalty of death. The point is clear—God considered any amount of intoxicating drink incompatible with His highest standard of godliness, wise discernment, and sensitivity to the leadership of the Holy Spirit (see Prov. 23:29-35; 1 Tim. 3:3, note; Titus 2:2, note).
 
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aanjt

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wacotton,

Have you been to a seder before? I have, several of them. Presented by Rabbis at them as well. Did you know that there are 4 glasses of wine? The 4th is never drunk, for it is the glass for Elijah. Did you also know that it at a Seder (although we did not do this at the one we went to, plus, they had to shorten it by quite a bit - ours ran 4-5 hours) one is suppose to be so drunk that they are not able to tell if the person next to them is Elijah? Did you also know that juice can ferment on their own without the tools we use today? They do not use leaven bread, though. It is matza crackers that they use (which I do love eating those!)

If memory serves, leaving the skins on the grapes is what caused the juices from the grapes to ferment into wine.

Yours in Christ,
Jen
 
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Polycarp1

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adam332 said:
We are talking about another area of scriptue aren't we? The bread for passover was to have no leaven. Don't try to take the focus off of your error by quoting from another area and applying other symbolism to the one in question.

Did not Christ use seed, to represent both good and bad fruit depending on how it's sown? He used many symbols in many ways...we are talking about the passover bread period.

But, since you brought it up do you even know what the leaven is being symbolized as in that passage you quoted? Come on...what's the relevance try and keep it in context this time.
Short suggestion -- be very cautious in accusing another Christian of error in speaking of his church's beliefs.

Second point -- the Synoptics seem fairly clear that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder; John explicitly says otherwise, dating it before Passover. So we do not know whether the bread used was leavened or not.

Third point -- Leaven is scripturally used, in the Gospels in both cases, as a symbol of that which spreads to sanctify and that which spreads to corrupt.

Fourth point -- Before additives, Pasteurization, and refrigeration, there was absolutely no way to keep unfermented grape juice. The custom in most of the Hellenistic world, including the Holy Land, was to allow the juice of the vine to ferment mildly to a "proof" that would keep it from spoiling, then dilute it with water when used as a table beverage, in order to prevent drunkenness. Even small children were given this dilute wine with their meals, for that reason -- aside from water and fresh milk, it was the only common beverage.

Fifth point -- Catholics and Orthodox both have been using wine for communion since (for certain) about 90 AD, when the Didache refers to it. I presume that there was some reasonable grounds for believing that wine meant wine and not grape juice at that time. Scripture refers to Jesus drinking wine. The presumption of some folks to be "more holy than Jesus" by not touching wine is something I find less than edifying. (This does not apply to alcoholics who abstain from wine for good reason.)

Final point -- The longstanding tradition of Christianity has been a sip from a common cup, with the option in some churches (and I'll leave who does what alone for now) to intinct -- to dip the bread in the wine in order to "commune under both species" without sipping the wine. The common cup also carries a symbolism which the shot glasses of grape juice do not.
 
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adam332 said:
No one indicated that every Bible translation as being incorrect, many literal translations show abstinence whereas others show moderation. I have PLEADED repeatedly; why does the majority of the Bible passages that are obviously speaking of alcoholic wine teach abstinence and just a few teach moderation? There is a contradiction so stop ignoring it and answer the question. When you have answered that then, ask yourself; why do you choose to believe that the few verses that imply moderation... while discounting the majority that teach abstinence?

Solve the problem and quit ignoring it.

Secondly, the Bible has proven that fermentation has NO PART in the passover service, period. It is not my opinion but a Biblical fact go back and read if you have missed it.
The handful of passages that condemn the drinking of alcohol are referencing its abuse in drunkenness -- which everybody concurs is a sin, when it is not a failing on the part of an alcoholic who earlier sinned in making himself into one.

Against these one can set any number of occasions when the ingestion of wine is referenced with no moral judgment placed on it -- and even once when Paul counsels Timothy to take a little wine for the sake of his stomach.

To condemn what Scripture evidently considers the proper use of a given thing in Creation because some humans have abused it is to take a stance quite contrary to the historic teachings of Christianity and of Judaism.
 
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