Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

[Oblio]

Or how about why Christ would would portray his body as a bread without leaven, uncorrupted(no fermentation), yet compare his blood as a fermented(corrupted) drink?

Recall that it was shown that leaven is not necessarily a type of corruption, it is also used as a type of holiness. To equate fermented with corruption is simply unbiblical.

 

[adam332]

Oblio,
Wrong, it was as corruption related to the passover. That was the subject! And little did I know at the time the Easton's Bible dictionary had already defined it as such based on Jewish tradition and direct Biblical interpretation! In other matters it was symbolized positively. But we were not talking about those matters but you refuse to omit them and focus on the facts that in the passover festival it DOES SYMBOLIZE CORRUPTION! I was right and you have yet to acknowledge it. Just like you refuse to admit that the last supper was a passover feast which I proved repeatedly. You are totally biased against the Bible over your church teaching even when faced with overwhelming Biblical fact.

Just like thieves are negative sinners but yet certain characteristics of one can be attributed to the method in which Christ comes. That does not make every mention of thief a reference to Christ, now does it?

 

[adam332]

Solve the problem of why the Bible tells us to keep away so many times yet in a couple of places it implies moderation. There is a conflict! is the majority wrong or the minority. You evidently choose the minority because it is what your church teaches. I on the other hand believe the majority of Biblical evidence.

It is not what I was taught. I read the Bible and my first conclusion was moderation based on the minority of evidence, why.... perhaps because I was a drinker and wanted to justify drinking even after I became a believer in the word. Sometime later I began to be more honest with myself in the method which I studied and realized that the few cannot override the many...so I sought to find why the few contradicted the many...and there it was! Improper translation...which did not teach moderation at all...instead it taught abstinence, period.

 

[Oblio]

...so I sought to find why the few contradicted the many...and there it was! Improper translation...which did not teach moderation at all...instead it taught abstinence, period.

Why is it that those that do not need a translation see scripture for what is says, that we are to use alcohol, like all gifts that God has given us for enjoyment, in moderation.

You are totally biased against the Bible over your church teaching even when faced with overwhelming Biblical fact.

The Orthodox Church gave us the Bible. It is a written record of Gods revelation and teaching through His Church to man.

 

[adam332]

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the passover wine was to be without fermentation.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the leaven in the passover was used with negative symbolism.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the leaven you brought up had nothing to do with the passover.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the last supper was part of the passover feast.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that they used unleavened bread in the last supper.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the majority of texts teach abstinence from alcohol.

If you truly saw scripture for what is says you would admit that the majority text holds the stronger evidence and the minority is probably been mistranslated.


need I continue?

 

[Oblio]

need I continue?

No

Because what you think Scripture says is not necessarily what Scripture actually says. What you think Scripture says is strictly that, what you think it says. It is not however, necessarily, what the word of God actually says is contained in Scripture. And if you search Scripture, you will see who is qualified to proclaim and interpret the truth of Scripture.

 

[adam332]

I can show you each of those items in scripture and I can show you where you either said contrary to those or at the very least expressed doubt as to what it said. Need i give you your own direct quotes and compare them directly to scripture so we can see who truly takes scripture for what it says? You better start going back and editing your old posts, to destroy the evidence before you answer.

 

[thereselittleflower]

OK!!

​

I was not going to even open this thread because I thought the whole issue of whether or not Jesus and the disciples drank fermented wine was really self explanatory and past arguing over . . when I saw how many pages there were, my curiosity got the better of me and I read through this thread . .



2 things I would like to comment on . .



First, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the drink that Jesus and his disciples drank AT THE LAST SUPPER was anything other than FERMENTED WINE . . .

The reason it is impossible that it was unfermented grape juice is that they had no way to preserve the grape juice after pressing . .they had no refrigerators or ways to keep the fermenting process from occurring.

Grapes have natural yeast in their skins . .as soon as the skins are broken in the pressing process, the fermentation action begins . .


Another element that cannot be contradicted is that the timing of the grape harvest is limited to the beginning and end of summer . . the last harvest of grapes comes AT THE END OF SUMMER . . .that is the last time, till early summer the next year, that there are fresh grapes from which to have "grape juice" or unfermented fruit of the vine . .

There are MANY MONTHS between the end of summer and spring when Passover occurrs . ..


For those of you who believe that Jesus and the disciples drank UNfermented grape juice at the Last Supper. . please show me how in the world they were able to keep the grape juice preserved and free of fermentation for about 7 months? Fermentation is so active within a week that you have alcohol!


Without the ability to FREEZE the juice for that period (or dehydrated it to reconstitute it later with water, etc), there is no possibility of having available at that time of the year anything other than fermented wine . . alcohol . . which is what was used at the time of Passover . .



Now, the other comment I want to make about the "invention" of "grape juice" . . what Welchs did was invent a way to KEEP grape juice in its UNFERMENTED state . . the original poster who brought this up was not saying that grape juice never existed before this time as it is obvious that before it can become wine, it is juice . .

But up until the time of Welch's grape juice, there was no way to prevent the fermentation process from beginning in the first place . .so now, we have for the first time in history, grape juice that STAYS grape juice and does not ferment . .




I hope this helps and sheds some light on the whole issue of real wine being used at the Last Supper and why it should be used in communion today . .

It IS what Jesus offered as His blood . . it WAS fermented, it couldn't have been anything else . . it WAS alcohol . . it WAS Wine!

They did not have the ability to remove the yeast from the skins of the grapes to prevent fermentation, they did not have the ability to preserve it free from fermentation for that long . . .

The only way that the fruit of the vine existed at the time of Passover was as an alcoholic beverage we know as wine . . .



Peace in Him!aa

 

[aardvark]

It is not impossible that the wine was unfermented as various ancient writers such as Virgil, Pliny, and Columella describe several processes used for preservation.

Don't forget that even fermented wine needed special care in preservation as it was subject to infections which could cause it become acidic.

These people may have lived thousands of years ago, but they still had ways of overcoming these problems.

 

[RhetorTheo]

Again, as I post multiple times, it is a fact that grape juice / unfermented wine did not exist until just before 1900 when it was invented by Welch. Sure, there might be a split second right off the vine where it's not completely fermented, but that's irrelevant. The wine in the Bible is, without question, fermented.

 

[RhetorTheo]

The alcoholic power in wine is the power in Jesus' blood. That's why, so often, the Bible compares Jesus and the holy spirit to wine or being drunk in the spirit. Those who would offer a fake wine, robbed of its power, would do likewise of Jesus.

 

[RhetorTheo]

Okay, if the early church did not drink fermented wine, then at what point did Jews, Catholics and the Orthodox suddenly become corrupt? Further, why is every Bible translation incorrect, no matter who translated it, and every "correct" translation a blatantly tortured translation that is tortured solely for the purpose of pretending that the Christians of the Bible did not drink wine?

 

[Oblio]

Very good question RoleTroll ? I suspect I know the 'answer' that will be given. The real answer is what we call eisegesis.

 

[adam332]

No one indicated that every Bible translation as being incorrect, many literal translations show abstinence whereas others show moderation. I have PLEADED repeatedly; why does the majority of the Bible passages that are obviously speaking of alcoholic wine teach abstinence and just a few teach moderation? There is a contradiction so stop ignoring it and answer the question. When you have answered that then, ask yourself; why do you choose to believe that the few verses that imply moderation... while discounting the majority that teach abstinence?

Solve the problem and quit ignoring it.

Secondly, the Bible has proven that fermentation has NO PART in the passover service, period. It is not my opinion but a Biblical fact go back and read if you have missed it.

 

[adam332]

The idea that you cannot preserve fruit or juice in a fresh state during Biblical times is completely false, read and learn what history really teaches.....

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

 

[thereselittleflower]

aardvark,

you are going to have to show me authoratative sources that clearly show how grapes could have been preserved free of frementation for that long . . what you posted above flies in the face of all I have learned about this subject . . . I am willing to learn something new, but not willing to accept that something like this is so without proof . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

adam332

Thank you very much for posting that link . . I read through most of it, I found it very interesting on several levels, but I will refrain right now from commenting on it as I need to look into a few things further . .

BUT I was trying to find this author!!


He is a Seventh Day Adventist Historian who is known for his study at the Vatican and bringing the whole idea of movement of worship from Saturday to Sunday to a much earlier point in time than Seventh Day Adventist have previously aknowledged . . and we have several Adventists in our extended family . . I had lost the information, but when I read his bio on that site, and that he was the first non-Catholic to be admitted to the university there at the Vatican, bells started ringing, and sure enough, he is the same person . .

So, I have yet to form an opinion of this author . . his biases and how they may affect his reporting of history . . there were many interesting things in the chapter you linked to . . but conspicuously there is no direct tie to how wine was used by the Jews at Passover, just conjecture . . perhaps qualified conjecture, I don't know yet.

But anyway, thank you for posting the link . . now I can provide some people with some information about worship they may find very interesting . .


Peace in Him!

 

[adam332]

Samuele Bachiochi is his name. His dissertation was called Sabbath to Sunday. He was the only non-Catholic author to be printed by the Pontifical Press. His website is called Biblical Perspectives, and is the one that is linked to above, about the ancient preservation of juice.

 

[seebs]

I am absolutely stunned that this debate even needs to happen.

 

[adam332]

Try the Jewish encyclopedia for starters.... and maybe the Bibliography that he shows at the end of his comments will help lead you as well. You appear to have no problem accepting that the Bible doesn't explain how they kept fermented beverages from spoiling, or the process they used to ferment in the first place. Yet, you have problems with the fact that they did not explain the process of how they kept grape juice fresh.

The article starts off with a comment that an encyclopedia makes stating that no such ancient process existed....obviously there are plenty of innacurate sources out there. The Jews will tell you that in ancient times the preservation of juice was used and the specific term was "tirosh" which of course was generically translated as "wine".

One of the very revealing points I was trying to make was that during the passover week...there was nothing fermented allowed in the house at all. No drink, bread, wheat, barley, etc.... They had this entire ritual which consisted of forgoing there studies and inspecting every nook and cranny of their home for any crumb or drop whatsoever of anything fermented...whether it be leaven or juice or grain. This is a very essential part of the passover, there is no way that the passover wine was alcoholic. It was strictly forbidden and would have shocked every man at the table when he partook in that cup and realized that it was not juice.

The Jewish encyclopedia does indicate that the different words that were all translated "wine" have different meanings; alcoholic, juice, vinegar, etc... This is corroborated by many scholars. What I don't see in their assessment of scriptural use is that there are any exceptions. IOW...if it says yayin it means alcohol, if it says tirosh it means juice, etc... I'm not saying that they are misleading because they don't specify there weren't any exceptions either. But, as it reads, it might be construed there were no exceptions whatsoever. Yet, contextually speaking we see there must have be a couple of exceptions to this practice of using one word for one thing and one word for another.

Of course what is confusing the matter for many of those here is the word "wine" used for all these things and the fact that we use that word in a strictly alcoholic capacity today. Interestingly, as recently as the last few hundred years there are writings in which people have referred to juice as "new wine". The stricter connatations have not been around all that long as some would have you believe. And of course others insist that a guy named Welch invented grape juice and does not have any knowledge of the historical fact that there were preservation methods of grape juice thousands of years ago. They would also like to tell the Hebrew people how their own passover is celebrated with a fermented beverage, when all along they thought it was juice.(wouldn't they be surprised) They would also like to tell the Hebrew people that they don't know what their own language means. What happened to the Bereans?