Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

[adam332]

Oblio and Phillip,
I think that I may see the problem now thanks to some of Phillip's comments. Passover is not a one day celebration. Some Israelites(depending on the region they live) keep it for 7 days and some keep it for 8. Those who keep it for 8 hold the feast celebration on the first two days and those who keep it for 7 hold it on only the first day. During the entire festival no they are only to use unleavened bread. Matter of fact, leaven is not to even be kept in their household, whatsoever, during this time. I thought y'all knew that. If I remember correctly at least one of the Gospels record that this was specifically the "first" day of the passover.

Maybe that will make more sense of John's gospel to you, maybe not...for me it doesn't because I see it as referring to what Christ knew "before" even in v.3 it continues speaking of what he knew. Either way I hope that helps you understand that the passover meal(s) and the sacrifice or other passover events are not all kept on the same day of the celebration.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

We use grape juice in my church, but not for the reasons you might expect, I have found this to be the true reason behind many Protestant chruches using grape juice as well, at least in Texas. You see in Texas, even just to serve wine with communion you must have a liquor license, most protestant churches do not want the fees, inspections, and possible problems that come with such licensing. As far as my church goes it has little to do with the doctrine of alcohol, we do broach that subject, but our view is not such that we would not use wine if we did not have to be licensed to do so.

As for causing an alcoholic to stumble, AA does not consider communion to be a failing, if you truly believe in the religious reasons for taking it. If an alcoholic is taking communion for the reason of being able to sneak a drink then there is more trouble in it for him than just sobriety

1 Corinthians 11:

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

I would assert that a recovering alcoholic that is believer can take communion without any fear of slipping. I may be a little overzealous in my faith but I think that the act of taking communion would not be allowed by God to cause a man to stumble, as long as he was receiving it according to the scriptures.

 

[Oblio]

You see in Texas, even just to serve wine with communion you must have a liquor license, most protestant churches do not want the fees, inspections, and possible problems that come with such licensing. As far as my church goes it has little to do with the doctrine of alcohol, we do broach that subject, but our view is not such that we would not use wine if we did not have to be licensed to do so.

My goodness, how absurd, shame on the state

As for causing an alcoholic to stumble, AA does not consider communion to be a failing, if you truly believe in the religious reasons for taking it. If an alcoholic is taking communion for the reason of being able to sneak a drink then there is more trouble in it for him than just sobriety

Interesting, thanks for posting that. In the Orthodox Church, the bread is placed in the Chalice along with wine and hot water and you are served a small piece (think crouton) of of bread soaked in wine. It is not like you are sipping wine from a cup.

 

[Yitzchak]

heres the thing, I support drinking to an extent that is that it doesnt make you lose control of your body. But ive had communion expecting the smooth taste of wine and to my surprise get the bitter taste of grape juice. Not that it bothers me to much, because we are remembering christ.. but what evidence is thier that wine in the bible is grape juice..

On a side note i attended a mass the other day and only the priest drank the wine? i thought both were to be undertaken by the believer?

I visited a friend's church a while back and they substituted water for the wine. That bothered me quite a bit. They did so because they said that they believed that the wine was only a symbol and that water could suffice just as well without any extra controversy among the people. My opinion, this opened a whole host of issues up for debate and had the opposite effect anyway in generating even more controversy.
I am glad to hear at leats your church is moderate enough to use grape juice and not just any liquid that they please. however , in my opinion, alcoholic wine is the best and most biblical way to celebrate communion.
In my church experiences, I have often heard the practical reasons such as Romans 14 where it talks about not causing a brother to stumble by my actions. I presume meaning to protect alcoholics. Also, at some churches they taught that drinking any alcohol is a sin. Therefore they use grape juice.
Myself, I go with the fact that jews used alcoholic wine at the time of Jesus. Although it was often watered down to a very weak strength , it was still alcoholic nonetheless. I see no reason to think that the water turned into wine by Jesus at the wedding feast was grape juice. My opnion is those who attest that the wine in the bible is grape juice are coming at it from the preconceived notion that any drinking of alcohol is sin. Therefore, since Jesus did not sin they must somehow deal with the scriptures about wine.
Bottomline, best to use alcoholic wine. But best also not to make a huge fight over it either.

 

[aardvark]

I don't think Christians should drink wine. When considering this issue, there are several things we need to remember.

1. The Bible was written thousands of years ago.
2. The Bible was not written in English.

Therefore, we cannot always expect that one word will match perfectly with another word when translating. For example, the Greek word commonly used for wine in the Bible is "oinos". Today the word wine is used to refer to an alcoholic drink, but "oinos" could refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. Many ancient writers such as Aristotle have used the word oinos in reference to non-intoxicating wine.

Probably the main passages that people refer to when claiming that moderate drinking is OK is John 2:1-11. I do not believe that the wine Jesus made on this occasion was alcoholic. First, the passage mentions that the people were "well drunk". If the wine on this occasion was alcoholic, it would be highly irresponsible of Jesus to provide another 120 - 180 gallons of it. Surely his actions would have encouraged drunkenness which is condemned by the Bible. Second, the Bible states that the wine produced by Jesus was the "good wine" (or "best" depending on the translation). Again, many ancient writers such as Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace state that the best wine was that which was non-intoxicating.

I won't attempt to refute all the verses used to support the consumption of alcohol, but I believe that a careful examination of the text and history leads to the conclusion that we should abstain from alcohol.

 

[adam332]

Exactly.

 

[deu58]

I do not see how the pharisee's could have called Christ a wine bibber for drinking non fermented wine. Also proverbs 23: 29-31 condemns drunkeness but it also calls it mixed wine. Maybe it was some kind of narcotic mixed into a non-fermented wine. But what leans me towards the belief that the wine was fermented is Jn 2 where Jesus changed water to wine. The reason I say this is because being an ex-wino myself I know that if you start drinking the goodstuff first after a few stiff ones your tastebuds deaden some what and if somebody hands you some cheap rotgut you really do not notice the difference in taste.Notice they say we drink the good wine first and lousywine last. I always wondered if that was because a large gathering could drink alot of wine and the goodstuff would be to expensive to supply the entire party. But the wine Jesus provided was so exceptional they noticed it right away. Also remember Noah. He didn't pass out naked drinking grapejuice. There are a differing opinions on this topic though. Some want to say the wine was really juice just so they can enforce abstinence on thier members. As far as I can see it is drunkeness that is a sin, not just having a beer or glass of wine. I know I am opening a can of worms here but no I do not tell people to go to clubs and bars. Many people simply like that taste of an alcoholic beverage and are not even looking for the effects. They have one or two beers in the evening or a glass of wine with dinner. really even being an alcoholic myself I cannot see the harm in it. This is actually a good question to ask a practicing Jew. They are very much into their history and usually like to share it someone if asked. Theres a Catch though many of them do not mind if you are a Christian as long as you do not mention the name of Jesus on their site. No wittnessing allowed. But when I have a question about something Jewish I usually post on a Jewish forum and see what they have to say about it.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[Sinai]

The original text regarding the last supper does not specify whether "the fruit of the vine" was fermented or unfermented. You can find theological arguments on both sides of the issue. Apparently some of the early Christians used wine, however, since they are criticised by Paul for allowing the Lord's supper to become a time of drunken excess.....

 

[deu58]

The original text regarding the last supper does not specify whether "the fruit of the vine" was fermented or unfermented. You can find theological arguments on both sides of the issue. Apparently some of the early Christians used wine, however, since they are criticised by Paul for allowing the Lord's supper to become a time of drunken excess.....

Arghhh. I was just looking at those very same verses and completly missed that point nice catch. Also there is an interesting verse in deuteronomy

De 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
De 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Again although I see nothing actually wrong with an occasional drink, abstinance would be better for the Christian wittness
Yours in Christ
deu58

 

[Oblio]

Again although I see nothing actually wrong with an occasional drink, abstinance would be better for the Christian wittness

I see your point, though I would say moderation and sobriety rather than abstinence. Many sins are simply a passionate excess of that which God has given us for His good pleasure.

 

[Andre]

Acts 2
12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;

Can grape juice make them drunk?

I believe wine in scriptures is the same wine we have today, made out of fermented grapes.

 

[Oblio]

but what evidence is thier that wine in the bible is grape juice..

The Church has used it for 2000 years. The use of water or grape juice in 'communion' services is a recent phenomenon.

 

[pmarquette]

Table Wine for the meal :
Some say the wine was cut with water , as a parent would put a couple of spoons full
of coffee in a cup of milk for a child who likes coffee ... or like taking Welches grape juice concentrate and adding water , or 1 package of Koolaide , some sugar , and lots of water ....

the water was from deep wells , luke warm , with bacteria and other things [ perhaps in that part of the world , still is the case ]. The wine would give the water some flavor ( drink not only water , but some wine for your stomach's sake ), and kill bacteria in the water .

stronger wine
was refered to in the story of Pentecost ( these are not drunk , as you assume ) ;
the story of the wedding feast at Cannan ( when the people have a buz on , most substitute a lesser wine , but you have saved the choice wine for last )

 

[Jeffery]

Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Genesis 40:11
And Pharaoh'scup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

Genesis 49:11
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

Isaiah 65:8
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

 

[deu58]

I see your point, though I would say moderation and sobriety rather than abstinence. Many sins are simply a passionate excess of that which God has given us for His good pleasure.

I Agree. It was God who gave us things and mans lust that polluted them. the reason I make the statement I do though is because of Pauls advice

Ro 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

I can't drink because I am an alcoholic, But I have several brothers in the lord who Take a drink now and then. They have that right and if I was not a drunk and knew how to drink intelligently I would join them.

But somebody made an interesting statement to me the other day. I was asked if I knew that there were actually 5 Gospels. I kinda went eh? He said Matthew, Mark,Luke,John and you. And you are the one people read the most.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[McCravey]

We are to all be the partakers of the fruit of the vine with power (Spirit) the alchohol is a type and symbolic of the fruit of the Spirit.

Instead of worrying about whether or not to drink alchohol laden grape juice--drink in the power of the Spirit and you will be taking part in what it stands for.

 

[aanjt]

If you were an alcoholic and was strugling with it for about 2 months without tasting alcohol and you are in church, someone hands you a little cup with wine in it, would you be strong enough not to drink it?
While I believe wine would be ok for most people, I think it could lead some people to sin, and there are children in churches so that could probably raise some concerns with parents.

I know people in my parish that do not drink the wine. Also, when my children take the Holy Eucharist, they know what they are taking. One time my oldest son (he was about 8 at the time) asked me if they drank wine (him and his brothers and sister). I told him, "Well, on Sundays, there is the wine at communion." I was wanting to see what he would say. He said, "Oh, Mom, that is different. That is the blood of Christ." Now, if an 8 year old (he's 13 now) can understand that and get that, why can't some adults? Anyway, when my youngest son was 4 (he's 5 now), he took the host and said, "Mommy! There's a cross on here!" I said, "I know, now eat it." He said, "But Mommy! That's Jesus!" I said, "I know, now eat it." He did and he had the biggest smile on his face. After Mass he said, "Mommy, I have Jesus in me!" He was so proud. Whenever he would miss communion, he would say, "I didn't make my communion today." or "I didn't get my Jesus today."

I have no problem with my children taking communion at all and I know lots of others who do not either. The only ones I really see who have a problem with it are those who do not go to a church that uses wine.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

 

[deu58]

I know people in my parish that do not drink the wine. Also, when my children take the Holy Eucharist, they know what they are taking. One time my oldest son (he was about 8 at the time) asked me if they drank wine (him and his brothers and sister). I told him, "Well, on Sundays, there is the wine at communion." I was wanting to see what he would say. He said, "Oh, Mom, that is different. That is the blood of Christ." Now, if an 8 year old (he's 13 now) can understand that and get that, why can't some adults? Anyway, when my youngest son was 4 (he's 5 now), he took the host and said, "Mommy! There's a cross on here!" I said, "I know, now eat it." He said, "But Mommy! That's Jesus!" I said, "I know, now eat it." He did and he had the biggest smile on his face. After Mass he said, "Mommy, I have Jesus in me!" He was so proud. Whenever he would miss communion, he would say, "I didn't make my communion today." or "I didn't get my Jesus today."

I have no problem with my children taking communion at all and I know lots of others who do not either. The only ones I really see who have a problem with it are those who do not go to a church that uses wine.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

jen

Thank you for such heartwarming testimony
yours in Christ
deu58

 

[RhetorTheo]

1. The Bible says wine, not grape juice. Simple as that.

2. Nonalcoholic wine, or grape juice, was not invented until the mid 1800s and not shown publicly until the late 1800s. "AP--Welch's Grape Juice was invented by Thomas Bramwell Welch, an abstemious Methodist, who cooked up the grapes in a quest to find a nonalcoholic alternative to wine. Son Charles Welch, promoting the product at the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago, said unfermented grape juice was born "out of a passion to serve God by helping his church to give its communion (as) 'the fruit of the vine' instead of the 'cup of devils."'

3. "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins." Mark 2:21-22 (see also Luke 5:36-39). Why does new wine explode in an old wineskin? An old wineskin does not "give" the way a new wineskin will, and new wine is still fermenting and releasing gas, which puts pressure on the skin. Let's be honest, when Jesus says "wine," he doesn't mean water, orange juice or chocolate milk, he means wine.

 

[aanjt]

jen

Thank you for such heartwarming testimony
yours in Christ
deu58

It still warms my heart to think of those

The funniest story (I think it's the funniest, I may have another one) I can think of is when we first visited our current parish. My daughter was barely 5 (she turns 10 on Thursday!!!!). My priest broke her host in half (since she was so little). My daughter looked at the priest, looked at me and said, "Mom! He broke mine!" while pointing at the priest. The priest rushed over, ate hers, gave her a whole one and patted her on the head while smiling. Aren't kids precious!

Yours in CHrist,
Jen