Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

[Philip]

He states that the unleavened bread is his body...why? Because the leaven process implies corruption through the breakdown caused by the yeast. The yeast performs FERMENTATION! In the same manner the juice was symbolic of His blood, yet if it had been FERMENTED juice it would make void the PURE intent he was trying to get across.

I seem to recall that Christ once described the Kingdom of God as being like leaven. Could it be that leaven is not always symbolic of corruption?

 

[Oblio]

I seem to recall that Christ once described the Kingdom of God as being like leaven. Could it be that leaven is not always symbolic of corruption?

From the Holy Scriptures that I do not have:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

[adam332]

We are talking about another area of scriptue aren't we? The bread for passover was to have no leaven. Don't try to take the focus off of your error by quoting from another area and applying other symbolism to the one in question.

Did not Christ use seed, to represent both good and bad fruit depending on how it's sown? He used many symbols in many ways...we are talking about the passover bread period.

But, since you brought it up do you even know what the leaven is being symbolized as in that passage you quoted? Come on...what's the relevance try and keep it in context this time.

 

[adam332]

Exactly Phillip!

 

[adam332]

Phillip,
sorry....my last post to you was about your comment on the kingdom of heaven.

Now as to your other post...
you said;
"The Gospel of St John indicates that the Last Supper occurred before the Feast of Passover. As such, there is no reason to assume that Christ used unleavened bread. Further, the Greek word in all four Gospels points to leavened, not unleavened bread."

That's not correct...go back a little further in those chapters....

Mat. 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
_________
_________

Mark 14:12 And the first day of UNLEAVENED BREAD, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
_________
_________

Luke22:7 Then came the day of UNLEAVENED BREAD, when the passover must be killed.

8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.

13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

[Philip]

We are talking about another area of scriptue aren't we? The bread for passover was to have no leaven. Don't try to take the focus off of your error by quoting from another area and applying other symbolism to the one in question.

You are failing to heed your own advice. It is not entirely clear that the Last Supper was a celebration of the Passover. St John indicates that it occured the night before the Passover. If that is the case, then the argument that there could be no leaven at the Supper is flawed.

Further, is it entirely clear that the prohibition of leaven during the Passover is a reference to perfection. Might it be possible that it was a reminder that the Israelites had to leave in haste, not allowing time for the use of leaven?

 

[ps139]

My question is, who drinks grape juice at weddings? Wine is a very common drink in Mediterranean cultures, if people had it at dinner everyday, why would you think it would not be used at a wedding. The wedding I'm speaking of is the wedding at Cana. After Christ changed the water into wine, the guests made the remark that usually the best wine is served first, but this time the best was saved for last. Is there really "high quality grape juice" and "cheap grape juice?" Frankly, I think that those who wrote the book trying to prove that 100% abstinence of any sort of alcohol was taught in the Bible are doing it for biased reasons. Maybe they don't think alcohol should be touched, and they want to make the Bible support their view.

 

[Philip]

Phillip,
sorry....my last post to you was about your comment on the kingdom of heaven.

Now as to your other post...
you said;
"The Gospel of St John indicates that the Last Supper occurred before the Feast of Passover. As such, there is no reason to assume that Christ used unleavened bread. Further, the Greek word in all four Gospels points to leavened, not unleavened bread."

That's not correct...go back a little further in those chapters.....

Notice that I said the Gospel of St John. You're quotations are from the Synoptic Gospels.

John18:28
Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.​

The day after Christ was betrayed, the Jews had not yet eaten the Passover meal.

Further, if the Passover had already begun, would Joseph of Arimathea been permit by Jewish Law to do the work of moving Christ's body.

 

[ps139]

Philip, in what you are saying....is this part of the basis of why the EOC and RCC celebrate Easter a week apart?

 

[Oblio]

We are talking about another area of scriptue aren't we? The bread for passover was to have no leaven. Don't try to take the focus off of your error by quoting from another area and applying other symbolism to the one in question.

Did not Christ use seed, to represent both good and bad fruit depending on how it's sown? He used many symbols in many ways...we are talking about the passover bread period.

But, since you brought it up do you even know what the leaven is being symbolized as in that passage you quoted? Come on...what's the relevance try and keep it in context this time.

You made this statement:

Because the leaven process implies corruption through the breakdown caused by the yeast. The yeast performs FERMENTATION! In the same manner the juice was symbolic of His blood, yet if it had been FERMENTED juice it would make void the PURE intent he was trying to get across.

Juice that has undergone the change to becoming an alcohloic beverage, it is impure and has become a poison/toxin, it has been corrupted by the FERMENTATION process and is not symbolic of His perfect and uncorrupt nature. It is by His pure blood(the lamb without spot) that we are given access to redemption and alcohol could NEVER portray such perfection.

Implying that yeast produces toxins and that necessarily any use (in your example wine) of yeast was symbolic of impure things. I refuted that by showing that is not the case, rather Christ used it as a symbol of Holy things. Furthermore, you used the case of the Last Supper (of which it is inconclusive, as Philip pointed out, that unleavened bread was used) to justify your eisegesis in a totaly unrelated area, that of drinking wine.

 

[adam332]

No John does not indicate that...please read it again....he says that Christ knew of these things "BEFORE". It does not say that the events of the supper meal ocurred before the passover. The other 3 gospel accounts confirm that this meal was the passover.

The scripture does clearly indicate that the Passover leaven is a NEGATIVELY symbolic symbol.

1Cor. 5:6-8 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[adam332]

Oblio, Answer the questions and disprove the error which I have conclusively shown! Alcohol is a poison, period. It is the toxicity that causes innebriation, period. Might want to check into science a little as well. Why can you not just say "oops you are right Adam the feast does record clearly that it was a passover meal and that the bread was indeed unleavened."????? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong about this....you don't have to change your traditional view on alcohol to admit your mistake about the bread. just for once admit that the scripture says different. can't you do it?

 

[Lotar]

The last time I was at a Catholic Church, they had two cups, one with normal wine and one with non-alcoholic wine. I could see why people back before non-alcoholic wine might want to use grape juice, but why now when we have an alternative?

 

[Oblio]

No, alcohol is not a poison, period.
It is a drug, and like all drugs, in excess doses it is toxic. So is aspirin.

I fail to see where yeast either in bread or in wine has been proven (by you or your eisegesis of Scripture) to be either symbolic of evil or impurities, or where alcohol is a poison. Nor have you proven that the Last SUpper was with unleavened bread.

 

[Oblio]

No John does not indicate that...please read it again....he says that Christ knew of these things "BEFORE". It does not say that the events of the supper meal ocurred before the passover. The other 3 gospel accounts confirm that this meal was the passover.

Joh 13:1-2 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. (2) And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

Notice the and

 

[adam332]

What about it...are you saying that the word "and" means that it discounts the other three gospel accounts. You claimed on another thread that you celebrate passover(pascha) remember? Are you now claiming that you don't include the breaking of bread and the drinking of a grape product in this celebration, based on the word "and"? Again please read what it says...it says that Jesus knew these things, "and" only indicates additional things that he knew.

You and Phillip showed me that leaven was used as symbolically positive when speaking of the kingdom of heaven. I have no problem with that...but I do doubt very seriously that you understand its significance beyond the fact it is a positive one.

That said I have shown that in reference to the subject at hand...passover....the leaven is negatively used. Since my proof is relevant to the passover (which is the only claim I was making), and yours holds ABSOLUTELY NO relevance to it, why did you even mention it?

You are obviously and desperately clinging to an idea about alcohol because it is what your church teaches. You are clearly willing to go against logic(fermentation = symbolically bad when speaking of the passover), the weight of Biblical evidence(3 detailed gospel accounts versus a single word in 1 account), your own church traditions(breaking bread and drinking a grape product), and quote completely out of context(the kingdom of heaven reference) in order to defend it.

 

[adam332]

A drug can also be a poison...

Alcohol in fact it is a narcotic and poison according to the WHO (World Health Organization).

Alcohol is a poison, and it appears on Poison Control lists. Please see your poison control center.

Alcohol is a drug and poison according to the FDA (Food and Drug Administration), which includes beer wine and liquor.

It is a fact not an opinion nor a theory…you must not get out much.

 

[adam332]

Oblio,
again you say...
"Nor have you proven that the Last SUpper was with unleavened bread."

Your right I didn't...the Bible did please read next time so we don't waste eachother time...

Mat. 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
_________
_________

Mark 14:12 And the first day of UNLEAVENED BREAD, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
_________
_________

Luke22:7 Then came the day of UNLEAVENED BREAD, when the passover must be killed.

8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.

13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

[Oblio]

"and" only indicates additional things that he knew.

And supper being ended

And is used here to tie an event (supper ending, not a thing that he knew) to the previous sequence of time (before the feast of the passover).

A drug can also be a poison

The operative word is can, not must.

You seem to not understand the concepts of drugs and toxicity. By your use of the terms, we should use the term poison for cafeinne, nicotine, aspirin, vitamins, and a host of other drugs and herbs that have a measurable LD50

 

[Philip]

Philip, in what you are saying....

Taken at face value, the Gospels seem to disagree on the exact day on which our Lord was betrayed. The East has always favored the timeline in John's Gospel. Christ celebrated the Last Supper and was betrayed the day before the Passover began. This places His death at the time when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the temple.

There is other evidence to support Christ being crucified on the day the lambs were slaughtered. If the Passover had already begun, would Joseph of of Arimathea and Nicodemus been permitted by Jewish law to do the work of burying Christ? Also, we have

John 19:31
Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. ​

I am not an expert on Judaism, but I believe mention of the sabbath being a high day indicates that it was the Passover.

As for the reconciling this with the Synoptics, I have heard many explanations, but there is one that seems to stand out to me. The Passover lambs had to be slain by a priest in the temple. With so many Jews bringing their lambs to the temple, there was not enough time to slaughter them all in one day. Thus, the slaughter began a day early. It was to this day that Sts Matthew, Mark, and Luke refer.

is this part of the basis of why the EOC and RCC celebrate Easter a week apart?

No. That difference is due to the way we decide when to celebrate our Lord's Resurrection. Of the top of my head, I can't remember the formula, but we have an extra "after" in our method that often pushes the date later.