William Barber, activists arrested for demonstrating against budget proposal in US Capitol

[Michie]

It's not turning politics into religion, but religion should inform our politics. And my religious tradition, similar to Dr. Barber's, says that a world where the poor are fed is better than a world where they starve. That is an implication of what is meant by the reign of God.

It’s just too bad he muddies that message with abortion. It seems to me politics are informing his religion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jesus never preached the Nicene Creed or the Baltimore Catechism. It's something people made up to try to explain their faith, but it wasn't made by God.

The Disciples of Christ, the denomination that Barber is from, doesn't believe that Christians should use creeds as tests of faith. So the concept of "orthodoxy" isn't really a rigid boundarymarker as it is in something like Catholicism.

Actually the Nicene Creed was what the Church believed at the 4th Century. What part of it do you reject?

The Baltimore Catechism was what Catholics believed and nothing in it, contradicts what Christ taught.
The Church which founded the Catechism is apostolic, no two ways about it.

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually the Nicene Creed was what the Church believed at the 4th Century. What part of it do you reject?

The Baltimore Catechism was what Catholics believed and nothing in it, contradicts what Christ taught.
The Church which founded the Catechism is apostolic, no two ways about it.

I've spent the better part of half a decade years ago researching church history and the Sunday School Church history you got isn't supported by serious historical scholarship.

The early Church did not resemble Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in its modern form. Nor did it have anything like a rigid orthodoxy in place.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I've spent the better part of half a decade years ago researching church history and the Sunday School Church history you got isn't supported by serious historical scholarship.

The early Church did not resemble Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in its modern form. Nor did it have anything like a rigid orthodoxy in place.

The Nicene Creed comes out of the Council of Nicia, in the 4th century, you deny this?

The Church evolved and for the most part changed with the culture, but the Sacred Traditions that
were taught by Jesus and the Apostles, never changed.

 

[FireDragon76]

It’s just too bad he muddies that message with abortion. It seems to me politics are informing his religion.

There really are Christians out there that disagree with anti-choice politics on religious grounds.

Basic magisterial Protestant theology is the separation of the Law and Gospel. Which is something that's complicated to explain and probably would require deconstructing your Roman Catholic understanding of salvation as something you earn. We don't earn salvation by not having abortions. We are given salvation by God as a free gift through Christ, and our vocation then calls us to love God and love our neighbor in response. But our acceptance by God is always free, and not dependent on any work we do.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've spent the better part of half a decade years ago researching church history and the Sunday School Church history you got isn't supported by serious historical scholarship.

You're speaking out of line, FD. I've spent the last 30 years studying and researching Church History and the development of Doctrinal innovations that are present over the last 2,000 years. I didn't learn anything in "Sunday School" because I barely ever attended "Sunday School."

The early Church did not resemble Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in its modern form. Nor did it have anything like a rigid orthodoxy in place.

And I DIDN'T say the early Church ever did, or does, resemble the Roman Catholic or Easter Orthodox Churches, especially not in their modern, or even medieval, forms. Where are you getting that I ever have? I think you're confusing me with someone else.

Give me a break, like I do for you. The truth is, you're not interested in understanding my position AND, what's more, you have no idea what "MY POSITION" is because you've never asked for my sources or my overall religions background and development.

As it is, you're guessing. Stop doing that and be the "gracious Lutheran" you project yourself to be.

How do I say this in the most Leftist way I can. How about this: .... YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!! Yeah, I think I might have learned this from James Cone. Or was it Thomas Sowell? Or was it Martin Luther King, Jr.?

 

[Michie]

There really are Christians out there that disagree with anti-choice politics on religious grounds.

Basic magisterial Protestant theology is the separation of the Law and Gospel. Which is something that's complicated to explain and probably would require deconstructing your Roman Catholic understanding of salvation as something you earn. We don't earn salvation by not having abortions. We are given salvation by God as a free gift through Christ, and our vocation then calls us to love God and love our neighbor in response. But our acceptance by God is always free, and not dependent on any work we do.

Catholics do not believe in Salvation by works. I have completely stopped taking you seriously at this point.

 

[FireDragon76]

Catholics do not believe in Salvation by works. I have completely stopped taking you seriously at this point.

Then what is the issue with offering grace and forgiveness to people that have abortions? Women can have a right to decide for themselves what is better for themselves, their bodies, and their families. We don't say abortion isn't a sin, we say that's between a woman and God. See the difference?

 

[Michie]

Then what is the issue with offering grace and forgiveness to people that have abortions? Women can have a right to decide for themselves what is better for themselves, their bodies, and their families. We don't say abortion isn't a sin, we say that's between a woman and God. See the difference?

We do offer grace and forgiveness to those that have abortions. We don’t condone elective abortions. See the difference. Look, faith requires repentance. Simple. Anyway, you stuck that fork in, I’m done. It’s not okay to electively kill your own child. Or facilitate others to do so. Faith changes us, not the other way around. I’m off to make lunch. See ya.

 

[FireDragon76]

We do offer grace and forgiveness to those that have abortions. We don’t condone elective abortions. See the difference. Look, faith requires repentance...

In classical Protestant soteriology, in the ordo salutis, repentance comes after faith. Otherwise, faith would be a work, whereas we consider faith a gift as a result of grace. So faith doesn't require repentance, repentance is the result of faith. And repentance doesn't justify us coram Deo (before God) or put away sin. So in Protestant theology, repentance is what God works in us through faith, and it never makes us sinless in this life (1 John 1:8).

 

[Michie]

In classical Protestant soteriology, in the ordo salutis, repentance comes after faith. Otherwise, faith would be a work, whereas we consider faith a gift as a result of grace. So faith doesn't require repentance, repentance is the result of faith. And repentance doesn't justify us coram Deo (before God) or put away sin. So in Protestant theology, repentance is what God works in us through faith, and it never makes us sinless in this life (1 John 1:8).

ETA: Grace is acceptance first. Repentance comes after. I misread your post.

 

[FireDragon76]

I used to be a Protestant. It does require repentance.

Then you had poor catechsis or preaching. Grace is free or it isn't grace.

I was catechised as a Lutheran. The Reformed ordo salutis is very similar: repentance is not a work, and faith isn't conditional on repentance.

Grace does not give one license to sin. Sorry but your theology is really off. Now I know.

My theology isn't off.

As Luther said, in this life we will sin, and we are all beggars.

 

[Michie]

Does the Catholic Church Teach That Works Alone Can Obtain Salvation?

Do Catholics believe that works can obtain salvation? If they did, wouldn't this go against Scripture? Click here to see the Church's true teaching.

www.catholic.com

What the Early Church Believed: Abortion

The Catholic Church has always condemned abortion as a grave evil. Here are examples of this consistent witness from the writings of the Church Fathers.

www.catholic.com

Grace: What It Is and What It Does

There are two kinds of grace, sanctifying and actual. What's the difference, and how does grace work in our lives? Here's what grace is, and what it does.

www.catholic.com

Repentance and Salvation

DAY 53 CHALLENGE “It isn’t necessary to turn away from sin to be saved. The Greek word for repentance simply means ‘change your mind.’ As long as you...

www.catholic.com

The first step of repentance is recognizing that we are lost without God, and we are doomed to an eternal death apart from him​

The Greek word we translate as “repentance” is metanoia (the verb “to repent” is metanoeo), and it means “to change your mind.” Metanoia’s Hebrew counterpart is tshuva, which means “to return.” For example, God told the people of Israel, “Repent and turn away from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations” (Ezek. 14:6). So when Jesus says, “Repent [metanoeite] and believe in the gospel,” he is basically saying: change your mind about sin, and return to God by believing the good news!

The First Step to Being Saved

The first step of repentance is recognizing that we are lost without God, and we are doomed to an eternal death apart from him.

www.catholic.com

 

[FireDragon76]

Does the Catholic Church Teach That Works Alone Can Obtain Salvation?

Do Catholics believe that works can obtain salvation? If they did, wouldn't this go against Scripture? Click here to see the Church's true teaching.

www.catholic.com

Mixing faith with works itself is a theological error. That's confusing Law and Gospel.

 

[Michie]

Mixing faith with works itself is a theological error. That's confusing Law and Gospel.

You shall know them by their fruits.

 

[Michie]

@FireDragon76 - I have to apologize for misreading your post #50. I completely misread what you said. I’m a bit loopy as I am ill right now. So I wanted to apologize. I’ll edit my posts if possible.