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Will we sin when we get to heaven?

Will we sin when we get to heaven?


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Nihilist Virus

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John 6:36-40

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Well done. You can claim victory on the original point you made, which is that I made improper use of the word "we" since I personally will be roasting in unquenchable hellfire for all eternity. Further, you have shown that you will gain access to heaven upon your death, presuming that your faith is sincere. Now, do you have something to contribute to the OP, seeing as how the OP starts with the initial assumption that a person has gained access to heaven and takes the argument from there?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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That all believe in Jesus Christ and be given eternal life through Him. This is why God sent Him.

Your answer varies slightly from BigDaddy4's but the slight variation has huge consequences. His version suggests that God cares only about those who believe. You are saying that God wants all to believe, and yet not everyone does. This means that God's will is at best partially effective. Are you OK with that?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Your answer varies slightly from BigDaddy4's but the slight variation has huge consequences. His version suggests that God cares only about those who believe. You are saying that God wants all to believe, and yet not everyone does. This means that God's will is at best partially effective. Are you OK with that?
Are you trying to claim that because God wants us to chose freely that He is ineffective? It is obvious that if it is God's plan as we claim, then God's allowing us freedom to chose is effective. If He wants all of us to choose Him but that some choose not to choose Him then freedom to choose is working effectively.
 
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Chriliman

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Acquiescing to authority does not mean the same thing as enjoying the process.



Right, so... why didn't God just make it that way to begin with?

Your original answer was this:

If God has free will to do as He pleases and it pleases Him to suffer immensely in order to create a physical reality that is free from pain and suffering where all the inhabitants are as happy as possible forever, where's the problem?

Clearly the process did not please him.

You're confusing God the Father with Jesus Christ. God the Father sent Jesus to do the Father's will. It pleased the Father when Jesus did what the Father wanted Him to do. What Jesus did ensured all who believe in Him would have eternal life and this is pleasing to God the Father, it is His will. So yes, what Jesus did pleased God, but God still suffers in some way because He hates sin and death and it pleases Him to destroy it forever.

If you understand all of this out of the gate, I'd be impressed. It's taken me years to understand this and it only gets more interesting as I learn more and can literally feel the blinders being lifted as I seek to know God better through Jesus Christ.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Well done. You can claim victory on the original point you made, which is that I made improper use of the word "we" since I personally will be roasting in unquenchable hellfire for all eternity. Further, you have shown that you will gain access to heaven upon your death, presuming that your faith is sincere. Now, do you have something to contribute to the OP, seeing as how the OP starts with the initial assumption that a person has gained access to heaven and takes the argument from there?
The choices one makes now determines one's path in the afterlife. For the Christian, we will part of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21-22. God will make all things new, which means no more capacity to sin.

Rev. 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

So the answer to your first question in the OP is no and ends there.
 
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Chriliman

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Your answer varies slightly from BigDaddy4's but the slight variation has huge consequences. His version suggests that God cares only about those who believe. You are saying that God wants all to believe, and yet not everyone does. This means that God's will is at best partially effective. Are you OK with that?

Eventually everyone will look to the Son and either be rewarded for believing and doing God's will or be ashamed for seeing the Son and not believing when they had the chance.

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

Romans 14:11
"It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
 
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Moral Orel

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Cool and the heaven you're referring to is not fully realized by an individual until after that individual's mortal body passes away.
Correct and remember this heaven is a physical place on earth that is not fully realized until after each individual's old mortal body passes away. This is important to remember.
Ahh, but only because God designed it to work in such a manner. He could have chosen to have it work in any number of ways, and that is the point I'm getting at.

But the fact that they exist in an old mortal body means they are inherently evil.
Babies are inherently evil... Theology says the darnedest things.

I have no idea what God does with babies who die. Just being honest.
Wow, mighty honest. Kudos. If babies don't get to go to Heaven my argument falls flat on its face doesn't it? I'm pretty sure it's scriptural though. Didn't David see his babies up in Heaven or with God or some such thing when they died? When I looked into whether babies in Heaven was a Christian belief, that was one thing that a lot of sources pointed to.

You seem to be presuming that you know better than God and that He has no legitimate reason to put us on earth.
Man I get tired of hearing this one. If I knew God were real, then I wouldn't presume to know more than Him. However, since God won't prove that He exists, I have to look at the stories in the Bible to convince me that He does. So if I see something written that describes who He is and what He's all about, and it doesn't sit right with me, it isn't that I think I know better than a god, it is that I know better than a character in a story. And given that the character in that book is omnipotent, that character has no legitimate reason to do anything other than his own whimsy.

Omnipotence can make sin work any darn way it wants sin to work, or it can make it not exist. No sin in Heaven, and still retain free will means there is no purpose for it existing in the first place.

Omnipotence can make us simply know what we need to know without having to learning it and still allow us to appreciate it.

Omnipotence can make the physical world completely unnecessary.

The irony is that it is us non-believers who are supposed to have more respect for the awesome power of God, but it is always the Christians who limit his abilities. "All things are possible" not just some of them.
 
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Moral Orel

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Again, sin is not just evil. They don't sin but they have the nature to sin.
Semantics. Someday they will be capable of sinning, they are not capable of sinning at one day old.

It isn't about the desire to sin, it is the nature of the creation. They are too young to sin but they still have the nature of sin which means that nature is not being skipped, it just hasn't actualized as of yet.
It is all about desire. If Adam and Eve (who were created sinless) never had the desire to do evil, we never would have had sin come to be (at least for humans). So if it is possible for a person to go through their entire existence without ever having the desire to do evil, which is true as we've established with babies, then it is possible for Adam and Eve to have been made with no desire to do evil and therefore sin never would have entered the world. It isn't taking away free will because it is the same state as we will have in Heaven, in which we have no desire to do evil and yet still have free will.

Would you want to stay in a state of infancy to insure your path to heaven or would you rather interact with the world as an adult?
What a silly question. Of course I would trade a tiny bit of time as an infant for an infinite amount of time in Heaven. Wouldn't you?
 
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Chriliman

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Ahh, but only because God designed it to work in such a manner. He could have chosen to have it work in any number of ways, and that is the point I'm getting at.


Babies are inherently evil... Theology says the darnedest things.


Wow, mighty honest. Kudos. If babies don't get to go to Heaven my argument falls flat on its face doesn't it? I'm pretty sure it's scriptural though. Didn't David see his babies up in Heaven or with God or some such thing when they died? When I looked into whether babies in Heaven was a Christian belief, that was one thing that a lot of sources pointed to.


Man I get tired of hearing this one. If I knew God were real, then I wouldn't presume to know more than Him. However, since God won't prove that He exists, I have to look at the stories in the Bible to convince me that He does. So if I see something written that describes who He is and what He's all about, and it doesn't sit right with me, it isn't that I think I know better than a god, it is that I know better than a character in a story. And given that the character in that book is omnipotent, that character has no legitimate reason to do anything other than his own whimsy.

Omnipotence can make sin work any darn way it wants sin to work, or it can make it not exist. No sin in Heaven, and still retain free will means there is no purpose for it existing in the first place.

Omnipotence can make us simply know what we need to know without having to learning it and still allow us to appreciate it.

Omnipotence can make the physical world completely unnecessary.

The irony is that it is us non-believers who are supposed to have more respect for the awesome power of God, but it is always the Christians who limit his abilities. "All things are possible" not just some of them.

Good honest response :) all things are possible with God, not with man. A sinless existence is possible, but only with God.
 
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Chriliman

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It is all about desire. If Adam and Eve (who were created sinless) never had the desire to do evil, we never would have had sin come to be (at least for humans). So if it is possible for a person to go through their entire existence without ever having the desire to do evil, which is true as we've established with babies, then it is possible for Adam and Eve to have been made with no desire to do evil and therefore sin never would have entered the world. It isn't taking away free will because it is the same state as we will have in Heaven, in which we have no desire to do evil and yet still have free will.

You do realize you're describing what Jesus did, right? Specifically the part I bolded. Yet you don't understand why we believe in Jesus and that He can free us from sin? That's really interesting to me. I honestly hope and pray that you find Him. God bless!
 
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Moral Orel

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You do realize you're describing what Jesus did, right? Specifically the part I bolded. Yet you don't understand why we believe in Jesus and that He can free us from sin? That's really interesting to me. I honestly hope and pray that you find Him. God bless!
Well I couldn't just use Jesus as an example in my explanation because He wasn't born into sin and He's also God. The point is that God could have achieved the exact same existence on Earth with the things He creates as well.
 
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Moral Orel

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Good honest response :) all things are possible with God, not with man. A sinless existence is possible, but only with God.
So if such an existence is possible, what is the point in all the suffering and evil? If He can achieve the exact same thing without it, why not do it without it? Why choose suffering for your creation instead of bliss without necessity?
 
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Chriliman

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So if such an existence is possible, what is the point in all the suffering and evil?

The point is to teach created beings what is right in the hopes that they'll listen and obey.

Romans 8:20
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope"

We didn't choose to be created and we shouldn't limit God by saying He can't create beings who truly have free will to listen to him or not.

If He can achieve the exact same thing without it, why not do it without it? Why choose suffering for your creation instead of bliss without necessity?

So we can learn about God and His purposes for creating us. The process of creating perfect beings who perfectly obey what is right and good involves teaching them how to obey what is right and good. The process of teaching someone can be frustrating from the the pupils perspective, even though the teacher knows all the right answers the pupil does not and must rely on the teacher. God is the teacher, we are the pupils.
 
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God set up the rules that create the circle. Why would God who instated what a circle would be, who determined what would constitute a circle and that having the nature of a circle can not by God's design be anything but a circle. God needs not redesign or change rules, but in fact, has said He will not according to His own will change them.

You are summarizing what you "think" my views are. :)

a circle is a circle due to the design of God. A circle is the nature of a shape that is described as a circle.
God is a rational Being that created the circle. The circle is the nature of a certain shape that if that shape is altered no longer is considered a circle. Again, God determined that this shape is a circle and His rational thought in doing so determines that if a circle is no longer in the shape of its nature it is no longer a circle.
Again, a circle of any other shape is no longer what its nature was designed to be. By all rational thought, a circle will not remain a circle if it is altered in such a way as to no longer be in the shape of its nature. God is not limited by the rules of logic but instead the rules are by His very rational nature and design.
Man knows that a circle is a circle and if it is altered in such a way becomes a square. A square is the nature of a shape that we label square. Logic did not exist before God for Him to be limited by them, Logic comes from God's rational thought.
This statement asserts that logic exists outside or separately from God's rational thought, that is not the case and as such God is not limited by logic as logic is God's rationality.
You conclude God is limited by logic, but logic tells us that logic is not a separate entity nor did it exist prior to God. God then is not limited by logic, but God is rational and logic is the flow of His rationality.

No, this is not my worldview, this is your misunderstanding of both of our worldviews.

Both are required but your premise that logic is a separate entity that precedes God is an assertion without basis.

Truth is God. Your assertion is simply a mis-characterization of God's limits. Only man is limited by propositions that are true or false but can not be shown to be either.

You are actually making the argument for God's existence. Everything in the universe has a cause. Everything has an explanation of being in existence if it exists there is the Principle of Sufficient Reason for it to exist. The universe is one large interacting chain of existence with each thing having a sufficient reason for existence. Your example for instance, beginning with the statue. The statue did not pop into existence without a cause, the cause of the statue is the marble. It exists by metamorphic rock that forms when limestone is subjected to the heat and pressure of metamorphism. The man exists because his parents existed before him and before that the universe spewed out stardust and man came to exist, the stardust exists by fusion in the universe, the universe then must have a sufficient reason for it to exist and the buck doesn't stop there. If there is no first cause or uncaused cause then we have an infinite regress of causes with no first link in the chain of all other causes in the universe. If there is a cause, an eternal, necessary, independent and self explanatory Being that has nothing above it, before it, or supporting it we have a sufficient reason for all causes in the universe and the universe itself. We have evidence throughout our existence that there is sufficient reason for all causes in the universe, why would you entertain the thought that the universe stands apart and separate from that chain of causes?

Did you forget the progression of the discussion?

As I've shown, your assertions are unfounded and the question of whether or not God could create us to be sinless is not refuted at all.

Nothing stated here constitutes a sensible objection to or agreement with my points. For example, I claimed that a square circle is logically impossible. Instead of simply agreeing, or remarking that this is obvious, you said:

a circle is a circle due to the design of God. A circle is the nature of a shape that is described as a circle.


What you are doing is just rambling on and on about the nature of a circle, occasionally discussing a square (although not here, where it is most appropriate) and nowhere in your mantra do you address my argument. If you intended for this to be an actual objection, you should attempt to address what a square is. If you intended to agree with my statement that is undeniably true, you should just say so. I can only take this as an objection of some sort because there is really nothing to say when I make an undeniably true statement, there is no clarification required, no contribution needed, which is to say that your attempts at clarification suggest you deny the statement is true. You seem to be trying to explain what a circle is using your own circular definition.

You claimed that I incorrectly summarized your views. My summary of your views being incorrect, combined with the things you said here, leads me to believe that your position is incomprehensible. So instead of focusing on your view, please, if you find any value in continuing, attempt to summarize my view to show that you understand what my argument is.
 
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Moral Orel

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So we can learn about God and His purposes for creating us. The process of creating perfect beings who perfectly obey what is right and good involves teaching them how to obey what is right and good. The process of teaching someone can be frustrating from the the pupils perspective, even though the teacher knows all the right answers the pupil does not and must rely on the teacher. God is the teacher, we are the pupils.
You're limiting God by saying he can only teach us through pain. I say God can teach us even in pure bliss.
 
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The choices one makes now determines one's path in the afterlife. For the Christian, we will part of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21-22. God will make all things new, which means no more capacity to sin.

Rev. 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

So the answer to your first question in the OP is no and ends there.

Re-read the OP.
 
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Are you trying to claim that because God wants us to chose freely that He is ineffective? It is obvious that if it is God's plan as we claim, then God's allowing us freedom to chose is effective. If He wants all of us to choose Him but that some choose not to choose Him then freedom to choose is working effectively.

I never mentioned free will. Please read the statement to which I was replying.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Semantics. Someday they will be capable of sinning, they are not capable of sinning at one day old.
They are not God. The only nature that is pure, free of unrighteousness, Holy and not capable of unrighteousness is God. They are capable of sinning at one day old, the fact that they don't is not that their nature won't allow it but that they have not actualized their nature.


It is all about desire.
Who says it is all about desire? It is all about us not being perfect like God. We are only a image of Him. We are not by nature gods. We are by nature the created. The only way to become like God is to have the indwelling of the God nature by accepting God's payment of our sin's that by our nature are inevitable because we are not perfect in ourselves.

If Adam and Eve (who were created sinless) never had the desire to do evil, we never would have had sin come to be (at least for humans).
Whether or not they were created sinless is not the point. They had free will with the ability to choose sin. They didn't choose to obey God, but had they we know that they would have been able to eat from the tree of life and have eternal life being able to abide with God from that moment on in a sin free state just like the angels. What that would entail as far as offspring and such there is nothing there to tell us what would have happened.

So if it is possible for a person to go through their entire existence without ever having the desire to do evil, which is true as we've established with babies,
we haven't established that babies could go through their entire existence without ever sinning.
then it is possible for Adam and Eve to have been made with no desire to do evil and therefore sin never would have entered the world. It isn't taking away free will because it is the same state as we will have in Heaven, in which we have no desire to do evil and yet still have free will.
We don't know what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not decided to eat the apple. They were created beings and still would have had to choose God by obeying Him. The point is in rejecting God or accepting God and having our lack of perfection covered by Him.


What a silly question. Of course I would trade a tiny bit of time as an infant for an infinite amount of time in Heaven. Wouldn't you?
But you won't give your life here and now to Christ to do so?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Nothing stated here constitutes a sensible objection to or agreement with my points. For example, I claimed that a square circle is logically impossible. Instead of simply agreeing, or remarking that this is obvious, you said:

a circle is a circle due to the design of God. A circle is the nature of a shape that is described as a circle.


What you are doing is just rambling on and on about the nature of a circle, occasionally discussing a square (although not here, where it is most appropriate) and nowhere in your mantra do you address my argument. If you intended for this to be an actual objection, you should attempt to address what a square is. If you intended to agree with my statement that is undeniably true, you should just say so. I can only take this as an objection of some sort because there is really nothing to say when I make an undeniably true statement, there is no clarification required, no contribution needed, which is to say that your attempts at clarification suggest you deny the statement is true. You seem to be trying to explain what a circle is using your own circular definition.

You claimed that I incorrectly summarized your views. My summary of your views being incorrect, combined with the things you said here, leads me to believe that your position is incomprehensible. So instead of focusing on your view, please, if you find any value in continuing, attempt to summarize my view to show that you understand what my argument is.

Simply put you are claiming that God is limited by logic. I am claiming that God is not limited by logic as logic flows from God's rationality.
 
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