Will we be vegetarians in eternity?

[LW97Nils]

No I do not.
Before you get your off topic inquisition all ramped up and we sachet together down that rabbit hole, would you care to address my last question please?

Which one was that again? Sorry, I forgot. I would like to know what partial preterists believe tho.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What about eople who are dead now? Do they have a consciousness or do they remain dead until the resurrection?

Present with the Lord while apart from the body, until the resurrection. Theologians often call this the "intermediate state", it is intermediate between death and resurrection.

This intermediate state is understood slightly different depending whether one is Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant; most notably in that Catholicism teaches Purgatory as a state of purification of the temporal consequences of venial sins for the soul to be fully prepared for heaven; while Protestants and Orthodox do not.

But every mainstream Christian denomination, communion, tradition, etc shares the same basic belief: At death there is an immediate and personal judgment, and one either is going to experience the foretaste of future glory or the foretaste of future judgment. This is what is usually meant when talking about "going to heaven" or "going to hell". But this is only a foretaste, it's not the end. This foretaste of either future glory or future judgment is temporary, until Christ returns, history reaches its conclusion, and the dead are raised. At which point there are those who are raised to eternal life, who share in the life of the Age to Come; and there are those who are raised to second death, described in the Apocalypse of St. John as a lake burning with sulfur and fire.

Those are, essentially, the main beats. Though opinions, ideas, and perspectives and be quite diverse, even among Christians within the same church. Largely because there is more that is unknown than there is what is known. So, for example, on the topic of the second death (which, is also often called "hell"),

1) there are some views which hold that hell is somewhat literal--a location where the damned literally suffer for eternity;

2) then there are those who tend to view it as a state of eternal separation from God, a deprivation of God's good and life-giving presence;

3) and then there are those who view it as the "same place" as "heaven" but simply perceived and experienced differently, which is to say, the damned experience the fullness of God's love and presence, and for them it is hell even as much as it is heaven for the redeemed.

You will likely encounter all three of these ideas about hell just by talking to enough Christians, and chances are you'll find Christians in the same congregation who believe variations of all three of these; or Christians who believe something different.

But I would point back to what I described as the "main beats": Between death and resurrection there is an intermediate state of some kind of conscious existence and foretaste of the future; then when the End comes at Christ's return, the dead will be raised, either to everlasting life or to second death. That's standard, normative, Christian teaching shared by most, virtually all, Christian churches everywhere.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Which one was that again? Sorry, I forgot. I would like to know what partial preterists believe tho.

Quick summary of Partial Preterism, aka Orthodox Preterism. Not to be confused with Full or Hyper Preterism.

First, Full/Hyper Preterism: The view that everything has been fulfilled. Jesus Christ has already returned, it was in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. Hyper Preterists believe that Jesus' Parousia was an invisible appearing in judgment of Israel through the Roman siege of Jerusalem, rather than a literal coming. Hyper Preterists tend to believe that the resurrection of the dead doesn't mean the resurrection of the body, but instead refers to going to heaven at death. Hyper Preterists, therefore, believe there is nothing left to happen at all, the world will keep going on and on and on until the possible and eventual heat death of the universe. But everyone who has died in Christ is alive in Christ in heaven, apart from the material creation.

This view is considered heretical by Partial/Orthodox Preterists. The term "orthodox" here refers to the fact that Partial Preterists hold to orthodox Christian teaching as confessed in the Historic Creeds, specifically that Christ will literally return to judge the living and the dead, and that there will be a resurrection of the body, there will be a renewal and restoration of all creation in the end. There is, yet to come, a definite conclusion to history: At Christ's coming, the Last Judgment, the resurrection, the new heavens and new earth.

Not all Partial Preterists agree on exact details, but here are some broad strokes:

1) The Olivet Discourse is almost entirely about the destruction of the Temple that happened in 70 AD. The only real part of the Discourse that isn't fulfilled is Christ's return in glory to judge the living and the dead. So, for example, Partial Preterists understand the abomination that causes desolation to refer to something that happened in 70 AD, for example the desecration of the Temple by the Zealots. Christ "coming into His kingdom" rather than being viewed as Christ's return, is instead viewed either as Christ's Ascension in keeping with Daniel's vision of the Son of Man taken up before the Ancient of Days and receiving His kingdom; or an unveiling of Christ's kingdom through judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD. Noting, again, there are lots of disagreement on details.

2) The Apocalypse of St. John is primarily understood as addressing things that happened or were happening when it was written. Some believe the traditional dating of the Apocalypse during the reign of Domitian (c. 90-96 AD), though some argue for an earlier date, even arguing for it being written during the reign of Nero (before 68 AD). But a common understanding is that the Beast whose name is numerically valued as six hundred and sixty-six refers to Nero. Babylon is variously either understood to be either Rome or Jerusalem. Etc. As such Partial Preterists are almost exclusively Amillennial in their interpretation of the "thousand years" mentioned in the Apocalypse.

3) Partial Preterists are also very likely to understand that the reference to the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" mentioned by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians probably is a reference to Nero. I've heard some Partial Preterists interpret the "falling away" as referring to events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.

So, basically, Partial Preterism understands that a lot of Eschatological and Apocalyptic material in the New Testament is contextually about things from the first century, contemporary to the times in which they were written. Rather than being about an unfolding fulfillment over history (Historicism) or all or mostly taking place in an unspecified and indeterminate time of the future (Futurism). But it is not Full or Hyper Preterism, which goes well beyond Partial/Orthodox Preterism by claiming everything is already done.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rturner76]

: Between death and resurrection there is an intermediate state of some kind of conscious existence and foretaste of the future; then when the End comes at Christ's return, the dead will be raised, either to everlasting life or to second death.

So during that intermediate time are people conscious or can they move areound? Do they have a spiritual body that floats around or are people stuck in their dead bodies?

 

[Jamdoc]

So during that intermediate time are people conscious or can they move areound? Do they have a spiritual body that floats around or are people stuck in their dead bodies?

If a Parable of Jesus can be believed in Luke 16 as what actually happens and is not just a parable, they are in a state of rest and being comforted though at that point in time that place was not heaven, now it is after the ascension of Christ is the commonly held belief.

Revelation 6, during the 5th seal, the people under the altar in the heavenly temple of God (which the Earthly temple is an imitation of), they are identified as souls, not having bodies. John can see them so they have some sort of visible form, but it is distinct from a physical body.... and.. they cry out asking for God to avenge them, they're not totally happy.
I believe being in an unnatural state like not having a body is a source of discomfort in a sense.. knowing that you are not "whole"

Other scenes in Revelation past the 6th seal, such as Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19, the people in heaven are instead constantly praising God.. so I believe that source of discomfort is gone, and that the resurrection has taken place but many will disagree. They certainly have some sort of body at that point because they hold objects in their hands (palm leaves in Revelation 7, and harps in Revelation 15)

 

[Diamond7]

Yeah no killing in heaven.

I do not like to kill here on Earth.

 

[Diamond7]

So during that intermediate time are people conscious or can they move areound?

Our Spiritual body looks just like our physical body. Only we are in our prime and of course, there will be no pain or suffering. If we go in the water of the river of life the water will not stick to us when we get out. Some people believe that the actual elements that made up our physical body will be drawn back together again at the resurrection.

 

[rturner76]

If a Parable of Jesus can be believed in Luke 16 as what actually happens and is not just a parable, they are in a state of rest and being comforted though at that point in time that place was not heaven, now it is after the ascension of Christ is the commonly held belief.

Revelation 6, during the 5th seal, the people under the altar in the heavenly temple of God (which the Earthly temple is an imitation of), they are identified as souls, not having bodies. John can see them so they have some sort of visible form, but it is distinct from a physical body.... and.. they cry out asking for God to avenge them, they're not totally happy.
I believe being in an unnatural state like not having a body is a source of discomfort in a sense.. knowing that you are not "whole"

Other scenes in Revelation past the 6th seal, such as Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19, the people in heaven are instead constantly praising God.. so I believe that source of discomfort is gone, and that the resurrection has taken place but many will disagree. They certainly have some sort of body at that point because they hold objects in their hands (palm leaves in Revelation 7, and harps in Revelation 15)

THanl you for the time you spent teaching. I have a better idea now of what we go through when our Earthly bodies die.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So during that intermediate time are people conscious or can they move areound? Do they have a spiritual body that floats around or are people stuck in their dead bodies?

In the Apocalypse of St. John one of the visions which John is given shows martyred saints before God and praying, and they are comforted with white robes and told to wait a while longer. The implication of this would be that the saints who have reposed in Christ are with God and conscious.

Biblically a "spiritual body" is simply the material, physical body that is resurrected on the Last Day, it's called "spiritual" (pneumatikos) as opposed to "soulish" (psuchekos) because St. Paul draws a distinction between this present mortal, perishable life ruled by sin and death and the future immortal, imperishable life of the resurrection. The body is called "spiritual" because it is the Holy Spirit Himself who gives life (see Romans 8:11).

Those whose bodies are asleep in bodily death are, nevertheless, present with the Lord, and conscious. What that means, exactly, is unknowable.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[parousia70]

Which one was that again? Sorry, I forgot. I would like to know what partial preterists believe tho.

My question was, Since you apparently agree that the temple vision in Ezekiel is a conditional instruction with a conditional outcome that Israel failed to realize, and not a prophetic utterance of "what WILL come to pass", I'm unclear of what your Biblical objection is to that temple never being built?

As for PP, its a big tent. All partial preterists, like all futurists, don't necessarily beileve the same things.

Happy to open up that can o worms with you once you respond to the question above that we've been leaving hanging....

 

[rturner76]

Those whose bodies are asleep in bodily death are, nevertheless, present with the Lord, and conscious. What that means, exactly, is unknowable.

I guess that's why we just to have faith. The Catholic Church calls things like this a mystery I believe and that is what they remain until we experience the resurrection.

 

[Jamdoc]

THanl you for the time you spent teaching. I have a better idea now of what we go through when our Earthly bodies die.

Welll.. I couldn't say I'm a teacher by any means I am just sharing.

 

[rturner76]

Welll.. I couldn't say I'm a teacher by any means I am just sharing.

Don't shortchange yourself, you have a lot of Biblical knowledge. More than me anyway because I have never uncovered any of these mysteries on my own.

 

[Jamdoc]

Don't shortchange yourself, you have a lot of Biblical knowledge. More than me anyway because I have never uncovered any of these mysteries on my own.

I didn't either. None of us do.
"But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets"

 

[Timtofly]

Those whose bodies are asleep in bodily death are, nevertheless, present with the Lord, and conscious. What that means, exactly, is unknowable.

2 Corinthians 5:1 should be well known.

How long does it take to leave Adam's dead flesh behind? Do some get their permanent body faster because of cremation?

 

[Second Time is the Charm]

I think we can still eat when we have immortal bodies - Jesus ate fish when He came back to talk to Peter in this age. I don't know about killing animals though in the next age. What God might do if there is no killing animals is create vegetables that have the taste and texture of different kinds of meat (or at least I hope so!).

 

[rturner76]

Jesus ate fish when He came back to talk to Peter in this age.

that is something I hadn't thought of. Perhaps we will only be allowed fish if there are rivers in heaven. Still, I don't know who would muck out the stalls for the cows in heaven and would he allow pork? He wouldn't for the Jews. Then were are left to chickens which I think are easier to clean up after but somebody would have to do the mucking out. Maybe a devoted angel could handle it.

What God might do if there is no killing animals is create vegetables that have the taste and texture of different kinds of meat

This doesn't seem likely to for no particular reason. Actually, I'm starting to believe that our heavenly bodies won't need food but then I think about communion. Will we still be taking the Eucharist in heaven? I don't know.

 

[parousia70]

that is something I hadn't thought of. Perhaps we will only be allowed fish if there are rivers in heaven. Still, I don't know who would muck out the stalls for the cows in heaven and would he allow pork? He wouldn't for the Jews. Then were are left to chickens which I think are easier to clean up after but somebody would have to do the mucking out. Maybe a devoted angel could handle it.

Wait... there'll be poop in Heaven? I mean, I guess so, if our resurrected bodies will retain our perfectly created digestive system Like Jesus' resurrected body did. I wonder if He still poops now that He's in heaven? I'm guessing He did at least for the 40 days between His resurrection and ascension anyway.... 40 Days is a long time to go without pooping when you're walking around earth eating fish....Amirite?

 

[Jamdoc]

that is something I hadn't thought of. Perhaps we will only be allowed fish if there are rivers in heaven. Still, I don't know who would muck out the stalls for the cows in heaven and would he allow pork? He wouldn't for the Jews. Then were are left to chickens which I think are easier to clean up after but somebody would have to do the mucking out. Maybe a devoted angel could handle it.

This doesn't seem likely to for no particular reason. Actually, I'm starting to believe that our heavenly bodies won't need food but then I think about communion. Will we still be taking the Eucharist in heaven? I don't know.

Well
Isaiah 65 shows images of the New Earth of people planting fields and harvesting crops, it's not that labor is going away,

Isaiah 65

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Context is the new heaven and new earth, I know some try to apply it as a description of the Millennial Kingdom, but that's not what the text says.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So God is talking about living with His people on Earth, there's no more suffering, and while some people think verse 20 is talking about people dying in the Millennial Kingdom, I think it's actually meaning there is no death, just the accursed who'd been given over to the 2nd death (the lake of fire)

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

people will still work on the New Earth, but it'll be not for other people to make them profit, you'll enjoy the fruits of your own labor, and it won't be taxing, it won't be unproductive, it won't be futile, and it won't be tiring. It will be enjoyable. It will feel easy and effortless and always worthwhile.

We were afterall, designed for such a task

Genesis 2

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

I know a lot of people will teach that Man's purpose is to glorify God by singing praise.
But that's not the original design intent God had for man. It is the original design intent that God had for angels.
God's original design for man, was that man would tend to the physical creation, as corporeal beings that bear His image, as something of a steward of God in creation, a representative of God to all that dwell on the Earth that cannot know God directly.

Genesis 1

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

When Jesus talks about the meek inheriting the Earth, when Jesus talks about ruling and reigning with Him, when Jesus talks about sitting in His throne with Him... He is referring to this. This original plan of God's that man is to have dominion of the Earth.
We SQUANDERED that, by obeying Satan rather than God in the Garden.
The knowledge of good and evil made us morally accountable for our actions, and it was also listening to Satan, over listening to and obeying God.
and so dominion of the Earth from the fall onward, belongs to Satan and his angels.

Luke 4

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

What Jesus did on the cross in part, was reclaim our Dominion. That is why Jesus had to be made flesh and live as a man. So that He could do what was right in God's eyes, to restore His plan for creation and His plan for man, including their purpose.

 

[rturner76]

Wait... there'll be poop in Heaven? I mean, I guess so, if our resurrected bodies will retain our perfectly created digestive system Like Jesus' resurrected body did. I wonder if He still poops now that He's in heaven? I'm guessing He did at least for the 40 days between His resurrection and ascension anyway.... 40 Days is a long time to go without pooping when you're walking around earth eating fish....Amirite?

I guess I just thought where there is meat there is poop. Human or animal, so I wonder what our resurected bodies will consist of? Like will we be able to touch each other or have sex. It would seem there would be no more need for sex after the masses are judged and sent to either heaven or hell. Sometimes it makes me feel like when we die we are just dead, lifeless but the Bible doesn't say that (according to mainstream interpretations of the day of judgement).